If God doesn't exist...

[RWS]

And btw, what "good" has your religion done in the name of God, that should make people overlook the "horrible bad"?

Let's weigh that. Millions of people murdered, many more millions tortured, and many, many, more millions forced to "believe or die". Homicide, Genocide, and every type of "cide" you can think of, was committed by the big three religions.

That's a great thing to worship and follow, and kill for!!! jk

What is it that makes you special and worth discussing further?

 

[Czernobog]

And btw, what "good" has your religion done in the name of God, that should make people overlook the "horrible bad"?

Let's weigh that. Millions of people murdered, many more millions tortured, and many, many, more millions forced to "believe or die". Homicide, Genocide, and every type of "cide" you can think of, was committed by the big three religions.

That's a great thing to worship and follow, and kill for!!! jk

What is it that makes you special and worth discussing further?

I tried this. Apparently Christianity is responsible for the entirety of all of Western Civilisation. But, don't expect to get any specifics on that, the best dingdong can do is cut and paste part of a Wikipedia page for that. Apparently, though he has been told that Christianity is responsible for Western civilisation (many of us were taught that general concept in Freshman World History, in high school), he is incapable of a little critical thinking, and research, so he has no actual clue what that means in detail. So, he is, in turn, incapable of separating the positive influences of that period, from the negative ones.

Because, you know, the Church's influence was significant, just not necessarily positive. It was a time when nearly everyone believed in God, and the Church ran all the governments: It was called the Dark Ages for a reason.

 

[Czernobog]

George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796

“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

Since we're quoting a Founding Father, why don't we quote a couple more:

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Joseph Priestly: "Christianity [is the] most perverted system that ever shone on man,"

Ben Franklin: "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

Not all of the Founding Fathers were quite as enamoured with your crucified god as you would like to have people believe. So many, in fact, were not so, that they formed the religious freedom clause of the First Amendment to insure that religion would never get a theocratic foothold in this nation.

 

[BreezeWood]

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finally a worthy comment, and how do you see it christian ....

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I see it like you are like almost every atheist I have met, you only see the bad that men have committed, you don't weight the good. It is not the fault of religion. You are literally throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You have a vague rosy notion of goodness of life without out religion. You don't have to imagine what the world would look like, we have ample examples of the 20th century of what a society without religion looks like. Your logic is flawed to say the least.

Here is how I imagine a world without religion would look like... their religion would be socialism. They would worship big government and social policy. It would be based on atheism and the deification of man. It would proceed in almost all of its manifestations from the assumption that the basic principles guiding the life of the individual and of mankind in general do not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts. They would have no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure. Their doctrine would be abolition of private property, abolition of family and communality or equality. They would practice moral relativity, indiscriminate indiscriminateness, multiculturalism, cultural marxism and normalization of deviance. They would be identified by an external locus of control. They would worship science but would be the first to argue against it when it did not suit their cause. They would force everyone to believe the same things and think the same way. There would be no diversity of thought, only homogenization of thought.

The fact that you don't see any good done by men because of religion means that you are not objective about this at all.

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your response was not an answer to the question.

I see it like you are like almost every atheist I have met, you only see the bad that men have committed, you don't weight the good.

it is christianity that is blind ...

The fact that you don't see any good done by men because of religion means that you are not objective about this at all.

that has not been its role in history as pointed out to you already, you are the one who claims Jesus was crucified for being a capitalist not for their religion as astonishing as that may be ...

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Do you want to abolish religion?

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Do you want to abolish religion?

answer the question above, have you repentance for your crime christian ... the gale would like to know. without her you are doomed.


neither the religious nor atheist have an inside track for admission to the Everlasting only the Triumph of Good vs Evil will prevail. not chritianity, judaism nor islam; Noah's parable is the religion of the bible. the spoken religion of the Almighty.

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Sure just as soon as you tell me if you want to abolish Christianity, ok?

.

Sure just as soon as you tell me if you want to abolish Christianity, ok?

those who worship a book of lies is not the problem, the problem begins when they attempt to impose their unjust will on others, that is what a matured society and the U S Constitution attempts to accomplish.


an atheist's Spirit that conquers evil is a candidate for admission to the Everlasting despite the book of lies so for that reason christianity need not be abolished but simply abandoned for those who profess goodness, eternal life and the just authority of the Almighty.

.

 

[RWS]

How ding ever got over the realization that Santa Claus wasn't real, is something that blows my mind. But from there, instead of learning to be skeptical and maybe doing some research first, he went to promoting another impossible omnipotent figure that looks and sounds just like Santa (but thinner).

 

[ding]

George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796

“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

Since we're quoting a Founding Father, why don't we quote a couple more:

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Joseph Priestly: "Christianity [is the] most perverted system that ever shone on man,"

Ben Franklin: "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

Not all of the Founding Fathers were quite as enamoured with your crucified god as you would like to have people believe. So many, in fact, were not so, that they formed the religious freedom clause of the First Amendment to insure that religion would never get a theocratic foothold in this nation.

Our Fore Fathers believed that liberty and freedom rested on virtue and morality and that virtue and morality would not be maintained with out religion. Atheistic governments of the 20th century have proven this to be true.

"[V]irtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government."
George Washington

"Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? "
George Washington

"[T]here is no truth more thoroughly established, than that there exists . . . an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness."
George Washington

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
George Washington

"The aggregate happiness of the society, which is best promoted by the practice of a virtuous policy, is, or ought to be, the end of all government . . . ."
George Washington

"Human rights can only be assured among a virtuous people. The general government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, an oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any despotic or oppresive form so long as there is any virtue in the body of the people."
George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

"Laws without morals are in vain."
Benjamin Franklin (Motto of the University of Pennsylvania)

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
Benjamin Franklin

"A nation as a society forms a moral person, and every member of it is personally responsible for his society."
Thomas Jefferson

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government."
Thomas Jefferson

"It is in the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a republic in vigour. . . . degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats into the heart of its laws and constitution."
Thomas Jefferson

"[In a republic, according to Montesquieu in Spirit of the Laws, IV,ch.5,] 'virtue may be defined as the love of the laws and of our country. As such love requires a constant preference of public to private interest, it is the source of all private virtue; for they are nothing more than this very preference itself... Now a government is like everything else: to preserve it we must love it . . . Everything, therefore, depends on establishing this love in a republic; and to inspire it ought to be the principal business of education; but the surest way of instilling it into children is for parents to set them an example.'"
Thomas Jefferson: copied into his Commonplace Book.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community."
Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."
Thomas Jefferson

"Liberty . . . is the great parent of science and of virtue; and . . . a nation will be great in both always in proportion as it is free."
Thomas Jefferson

"The order of nature [is] that individual happiness shall be inseparable from the practice of virtue."
Thomas Jefferson

"Without virtue, happiness cannot be."
Thomas Jefferson

"The institution of delegated power implies that there is a portion of virtue and honor among mankind which may be a reasonable foundation of confidence."
Alexander Hamilton

"To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea."
James Madison

"The aim of every political Constitution, is or ought to be first to obtain for rulers men who possess most wisdom to discern, and most virtue to pursue, the common good of society; and in the next place, to take the most effectual precautions for keeping them virtuous whilst they continue to hold their public trust."
James Madison

". . . Virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone that renders us invincible. These are the tactics we should study. If we lose these, we are conquered, fallen indeed . . . so long as our manners and principles remain sound, there is no danger."
Patrick Henry

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles."
Patrick Henry

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty.
John Adams

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our constitution as a whale goes through a net."
John Adams

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams

"Liberty can no more exist without virtue and independence than the body can live and move without a soul."
John Adams

"Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is the only foundation of republics."
John Adams

"t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."
John Adams

"The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."
John Adams

"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty."
John Adams

"Honor is truly sacred, but holds a lower rank in the scale of moral excellence than virtue. Indeed the former is part of the latter, and consequently has not equal pretensions to support a frame of government productive of human happiness."
John Adams

"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty. There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration of virtue. These amiable passions, are the "latent spark"... If the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling the differences between true and false, right and wrong, virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
John Adams

"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."
Fisher Ames

"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."
Richard Henry Lee

"Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary."
Thomas Paine

"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt. He therefore is the truest friend of the liberty of his country who tries most to promote its virtue, and who, so far as his power and influence extend, will not suffer a man to be chosen onto any office of power and trust who is not a wise and virtuous man."
Samuel Adams

"The diminution of public virtue is usually attended with that of public happiness, and the public liberty will not long survive the total extinction of morals."
Samuel Adams

"[M]en will be free no longer then while they remain virtuous."
Samuel Adams

"If virtue & knowledge are diffused among the people, they will never be enslav'd. This will be their great security."
Samuel Adams

"No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and Virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders."
Samuel Adams

"A general dissolution of the principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy.... While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but once they lose their virtue, they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.... If virtue and knowledge are diffused among the people, they will never be enslaved. This will be their great security."
Samuel Adams

"No people can be great who have ceased to be virtuous."
Samuel Johnson

"No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people, but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality and virtue, and by frequent recurrence to fundamental principles."
George Mason

"[A] free government . . . cannot be supported without Virtue."
Samuel Williams

"In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate -- look at his character. It is alleged by men of loose principles, or defective views of the subject, that religion and morality are not necessary or important qualifications for political stations. But the scriptures teach a different doctrine. They direct that rulers should be men who rule in the fear of God, men of truth, hating covetousness. It is to the neglect of this rule that we must ascribe the multiplied frauds, breaches of trust, speculations and embezzlements of public property which astonish even ourselves; which tarnish the character of our country and which disgrace our government. When a citizen gives his vote to a man of known immorality, he abuses his civic responsibility; he not only sacrifices his own responsibility; he sacrifices not only his own interest, but that of his neighbor; he betrays the interest of his country."
Noah Webster

"...if the citizens neglect their Duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish or local purposes; corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the Laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizen will be violated or disregarded."
Noah Webster

"Let a man's zeal, profession, or even principles as to political measures be what they will, if he is without personal integrity and private virtue, as a man he is not to be trusted."
John Witherspoon

"... the manners of the people in general are of the utmost moment to the stability of any civil society. When the body of a people are altogether corrupt in their manners, the government is ripe for dissolution."
John Witherspoon

"So true is this, that civil liberty cannot be long preserved without virtue."
John Witherspoon

"... but a republic once equally poised, must either preserve its virtue or lose its liberty, and by some tumultuous revolution, either return to its first principles, or assume a more unhappy form."
John Witherspoon

"A country cannot subsist well without liberty, nor liberty without virtue."
Jean Jacques Rousseau

"Machiavel, discoursing on these matters, finds virtue to be so essentially necessary to the establishment and preservation of liberty, that he thinks it impossible for a corrupted people to set up a good government, or for a tyranny to be introduced if they be virtuous; and makes this conclusion, 'That where the matter (that is, the body of the people) is not corrupted, tumults and disorders do not hurt; and where it is corrupted, good laws do no good:' which being confirmed by reason and experience, I think no wise man has ever contradicted him."
Algernon Sidney

"[L]iberty cannot be preserved, if the manners of the people are corrupted . . ."
Algernon Sidney

"[A]ll popular and well-mixed governments [republics] . . . are ever established by wise and good men, and can never be upheld otherwise than by virtue: The worst men always conspiring against them, they must fall, if the best have not power to preserve them. . . . [and] unless they be preserved in a great measure free from vices . . . ."
Algernon Sidney

"Fruits are always of the same nature with the seeds and roots from which they come, and trees are known by the fruits they bear: as a man begets a man, and a beast a beast, that society of men which constitutes a government upon the foundation of justice, virtue, and the common good, will always have men to promote those ends; and that which intends the advancement of one man's desire and vanity, will abound in those that will foment them."
Algernon Sidney

"f vice and corruption prevail, liberty cannot subsist; but if virtue have the advantage, arbitrary power cannot be established."
Algernon Sidney

"If the public safety be provided, liberty and propriety secured, justice administered, virtue encouraged, vice suppressed, and the true interest of the nation advanced, the ends of government are accomplished . . ."
Algernon Sidney

"[L]iberty without virtue would be no blessing to us."
Benjamin Rush

"Without virtue there can be no liberty."
Benjamin Rush

"The only foundation for... a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments."
Benjamin Rush

"No free government can stand without virtue in the people, and a lofty spirit of partiotism."
Andrew Jackson

"Lastly, our ancestors established their system of government on morality and religious sentiment. Moral habits, they believed, cannot safely be on any other foundation than religious principle, nor any government be secure which is not supported by moral habits."
Daniel Webster

"f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us, that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity."
Daniel Webster

"Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith."
Horace Greely

"What is liberty without wisdom and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint."
Edmund Burke

"Among a people generally corrupt liberty cannot long exist."
Edmund Burke

"Manners are of more importance than laws. Upon them in great measure the laws depend. The law touches us but here and there, and now and then. Manners are what vex and smooth, corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us, by a constant, steady, uniform, insensible operation, like that of the air we breathe in. They give their whole form and color to our lives. According to their quality, they aid morals, they support them, or they totally destroy them."
Edmund Burke

"It is better to cherish virtue and humanity, by leaving much to free will, even with some loss of the object , than to attempt to make men mere machines and instruments of political benevolence. The world on the whole will gain by a liberty, without which virtue cannot exist."
Edmund Burke

"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their appetites; in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity; in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption; in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsel of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters."
Edmund Burke

"Among a people generally corrupt liberty cannot long exist."
Edmund Burke

"[T]he very best forms of government are vain without public virtue . . . ."
William A. Cocke

"No polity can be devised which shall perpetuate freedom among a people that are dead to honor and integrity. Liberty and virtue are twin sisters, and the best fabric in the world . . . ."
James H. Thornwell

"[P]erfect freedom consists in obeying the dictates of right reason, and submitting to natural law. When a man goes beyond or contrary to the law of nature and reason, he . . . introduces confusion and disorder into society . . . [thus] where licentiousness begins, liberty ends."
Samuel West

"When was public virtue to be found when private was not?"
William Cowper

"The laws by which the Divine Ruler of the universe has decreed an indissoluble connection between public happiness and private virtue, whatever apparent exceptions may delude our short-sighted judgments, never fail to vindicate their supremacy and immutability."
William Cabell Rives

"Unless virtue guide us our choice must be wrong."
William Penn

"If men be good, government cannot be bad."
William Penn

"Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them."
Joseph Story

"The life of the nation is secure only while the nation is honest, truthful and virtuous."
Frederick Douglas

"[R]eligion, morality and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall be forever encouraged."
Northwest Ordinance of 1787

"I consider the domestic virtue of the Americans as the principle source of all their other qualities. It acts as a promoter of industry, as a stimulus to enterprise and as the most powerful restraint of public vice. . . . No government could be established on the same principle as that of the United States with a different code of morals."
Francis Grund

"The American Constitution is remarkable for its simplicity; but it can only suffice a people habitually correct in their actions, and would be utterly inadequate to the wants of a different nation. Change the domestic habits of the Americans, their religious devotion, and their high respect for morality, and it will not be necessary to change a single letter in the Constitution in order to vary the whole form of their government."
Francis Grund

"History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed into political and economic decline. There has been either a spiritual awakening to overcome the moral lapse, or a progressive deterioration leading to ultimate national disaster."
Douglas MacArthur

"[Liberty] considers religion as the safeguard of morality, and morality as the best security of law and the surest pledge of the duration of freedom."
Alexis de Tocqueville

"I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her comodious harbors and her ample rivers, and it was not there; in her fertile fields and boundless prairies; and it was not there; in her rich mines and her vast commerce, and it was not there. Not until I visited the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great."
An old adage attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville

"Somehow strangely the vice of men gets well represented and protected but their virtue has none to plead its cause -- nor any charter of immunities and rights."
Henry David Thoreau

"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society."
Theodore Roosevelt

"We have never stopped sin by passing laws; and in the same way, we are not going to take a great moral ideal and achieve it merely by law."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

"No government at any level, or at any price, can afford, on the crime side, the police necessary to assure our safety unless the overwhelming majority of us are guided by an inner, personal code of morality. And you will not get that inner, personal code of morality unless children are brought up in a family -- a family that gives them the affection they seek, that makes them feel they belong, that guides them to the future, and that will build continuity in future generations. . . . the greatest inequality today is not inequality of wealth or income. It is the inequality between the child brought up in a loving, supportive family and one who has been denied that birthright."
Lady Margaret Thatcher

"A state is nothing more than a reflection of its citizens; the more decent the citizens, the more decent the state."
Ronald Reagan

"Today it would be progress if everyone would stop talking about values. Instead, let us talk, as the Founders did, about virtues."
George Will

"The ultimate success of this government and the stability of its institutions, its progress in all that can make a nation honored, depend upon its adherence to the principles of truth and righteousness."
John Lord

"Righteousness exalteth a nation."
Proverbs 14:34

 

[ding]

George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796

“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

Since we're quoting a Founding Father, why don't we quote a couple more:

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Joseph Priestly: "Christianity [is the] most perverted system that ever shone on man,"

Ben Franklin: "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

Not all of the Founding Fathers were quite as enamoured with your crucified god as you would like to have people believe. So many, in fact, were not so, that they formed the religious freedom clause of the First Amendment to insure that religion would never get a theocratic foothold in this nation.

But if that is not enough proof maybe you will accept witness testimony:

One Nation Under God: Alexis de Tocqueville

Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Upon my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country. Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society. In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth. In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great. The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom. The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts -- the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims.

 

[ding]

The New England Primer was the second best-selling book in the American colonies. The Bible was number one. Five million copies existed in America. There there were only four million people in America in 1776. Every school child was taught morality and virtue as Thomas Jefferson said they should be.

The New England Primer, 1777 edition

 

[Czernobog]

How ding ever got over the realization that Santa Claus wasn't real, is something that blows my mind. But from there, instead of learning to be skeptical and maybe doing some research first, he went to promoting another impossible omnipotent figure that looks and sounds just like Santa (but thinner).

Well...in his defence, I promoted that same fairy tale until seminary. The sad truth is our standard education system - right up through university - doesn't exactly teach, or encourage critical thinking, or individuality. it teaches students to memorise facts, and figures, and to regurgitate the thoughts, and experiences of other people. It isn't until grad school, and beyond that anyone is ever taught to actually think for themselves. Unfortunately, for most it is much too late by then. Indoctrination is far too set in. Fortunately, for me, when I set out to translate, and understand the Bible, it forced me to examine what the Bible said, in detail, and how it compared to itself, other religious writings, and science. Unfortunately, for religion, it was found wanting. From that shocking reality, it didn't take long for the whole house of cards to fall down.

After I left Seminary, and Christianity behind, I still found myself with an emotional need to believe in "something more". That desire is deeply ingrained into usas we are raised. Since I was against Christianity, I decided like many young people that this meant I was to be anti-Christian, and what is more "anti-Christian" than Satanism right? So, I went out, and got my Satanic Bible (I actually still have it crammed on a shelf somewhere in my library; I haven't so much as cracked the cover in decades), found a satanic church, and began immediately prostrating myself to our Glorious Dark Lord. It didn't take long at all, for me to come to a somewhat unsettling realisation: I was still allowing myself to be stuck inside the same box that I grew up in. In order to accept the existence of Satan, one must first accept that the Christian theology is accurate. Well, here's a sobering reality for you Satanists: if the Christian theology is accurate, then this story has already been written, and Your. Guy. LOST!!! Being a Satanist, and betting that this will, somehow, enrich your life is rather like betting that the Cleveland Indians are going to beat the Cubs this year. We already know how that game turned out, but, hey! If you want to intentionally make a bet on the losing team, feel free.

So, Christianity was irrational. Satanism is just plain stupid. It was time to climb out of my box. I saw no purpose to Judaism; that's as much a cultural/racial thing, as it is a religious thing. Besides, Judaism is just a forerunner of Christianity, and I had already decided that version of a "higher power"was irrational. I studied Islam for a bit. It didn't take long at all to discover that Islam is just another flavour of the same theology that gave us Judaism, and Christianity. So, since the Christian concept of divinity didn't do it for me, which automatically discounted the Jewish concept of divinity, guess where that left Islam. From there I moved on to Buddhism,Hinduism, even Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, and Rastafarianism. All of those contained within their beliefs their own rational dissonances.

I then discovered, Neo-Paganism. With paganism, I found a religion that seemed to follow the natural laws of physics, and the universe. Over the last decade, or so, I have come to understand that the divinity aspect of paganism is more metaphorical, and allegorical than factual. Hence, I am today an atheist who worships nature.

Theists all seem to think that the only reason one becomes an atheist because some "event" happened in their life, they "got mad at God", and their rejection of religion is some emotional rebellion, like a child throwing a temper tantrum. They can't conceive of the atheist who has rejected religion as a matter of reason, and logic.

 

[sealybobo]

How ding ever got over the realization that Santa Claus wasn't real, is something that blows my mind. But from there, instead of learning to be skeptical and maybe doing some research first, he went to promoting another impossible omnipotent figure that looks and sounds just like Santa (but thinner).

Well...in his defence, I promoted that same fairy tale until seminary. The sad truth is our standard education system - right up through university - doesn't exactly teach, or encourage critical thinking, or individuality. it teaches students to memorise facts, and figures, and to regurgitate the thoughts, and experiences of other people. It isn't until grad school, and beyond that anyone is ever taught to actually think for themselves. Unfortunately, for most it is much too late by then. Indoctrination is far too set in. Fortunately, for me, when I set out to translate, and understand the Bible, it forced me to what the Bible said, in detail, and how it compared to itself, other religious writings, and science. Unfortunately, for religion, it was found wanting. From that shocking reality, it didn't take long for the whole house of cards to fall down.

After I left Seminary, and Christianity behind, I still found myself with an emotional need to believe in "something more". That desire is deeply ingrained into usas we are raised. Since I was against Christianity, I decided like many young people that this meant I was to be anti-Christian, and what is more "anti-Christian" than Satanism right? So, I went out, and got my Satanic Bible (I actually still have it crammed on a shelf somewhere in my library; I haven't so much as cracked the cover in decades), found a satanic church, and began immediately prostrating myself to our Glorious Dark Lord. It didn't take long at all, for me to come to a somewhat unsettling realisation: I was still allowing myself to be stuck inside the same box that I grew up in. In order to accept the existence of Satan, one must first accept that the Christian theology is accurate. Well, here's a sobering reality for you Satanists: if the Christian theology is accurate, then this story has already been written, and Your. Guy. LOST!!! Being a Satanist, and betting that this will, somehow, enrich your life is rather like betting that the Cleveland Indians are going to beat the Cubs this year. We already know how that game turned out, but, hey! If you want to intentionally make a bet on the losing team, feel free.

So, Christianity was irrational. Satanism is just plain stupid. It was time to climb out of my box. I saw no purpose to Judaism; that's as much a cultural/racial thing, as it is a religious thing. Besides, Judaism is just a forerunner of Christianity, and I had already decided that version of a "higher power"was irrational. I studied Islam for a bit. It didn't take long at all to discover that Islam is just another flavour of the same theology that gave us Judaism, and Christianity. So, since the Christian concept of divinity didn't do it for me, which automatically discounted the Jewish concept of divinity, guess where that left Islam. From there I moved on to Buddhism,Hindism, even Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, and Rastafarianism. All of those contained within their beliefs their own rational dissonances.

I then discovered, Neo-Paganism. With paganism, I found a religion that seemed to follow the natural laws of physics, and the universe. Over the last decade, or so, I have come to understand that the divinity aspect of paganism is more metaphorical, and allegorical than factual. Hence, I am today an atheist who worships nature.

theists all seem to think that the only reason one becomes an atheist because some "event" happened in their life, and their rejection of religion is some emotional rebellion, like a child throwing a temper tantrum. They can't conceive of the atheist who has rejected religion as a matter of reason, and logic.

RWNJ's already accuse schools of being too "liberal". I'm sure a long time ago parents told schools to not tell their kids that god might be made up.

 

[ding]

How ding ever got over the realization that Santa Claus wasn't real, is something that blows my mind. But from there, instead of learning to be skeptical and maybe doing some research first, he went to promoting another impossible omnipotent figure that looks and sounds just like Santa (but thinner).

I was six years old when it hit me and I asked her if she was Santa. She didn't lie to me. I

 

[ding]

How ding ever got over the realization that Santa Claus wasn't real, is something that blows my mind. But from there, instead of learning to be skeptical and maybe doing some research first, he went to promoting another impossible omnipotent figure that looks and sounds just like Santa (but thinner).

Well...in his defence, I promoted that same fairy tale until seminary. The sad truth is our standard education system - right up through university - doesn't exactly teach, or encourage critical thinking, or individuality. it teaches students to memorise facts, and figures, and to regurgitate the thoughts, and experiences of other people. It isn't until grad school, and beyond that anyone is ever taught to actually think for themselves. Unfortunately, for most it is much too late by then. Indoctrination is far too set in. Fortunately, for me, when I set out to translate, and understand the Bible, it forced me to examine what the Bible said, in detail, and how it compared to itself, other religious writings, and science. Unfortunately, for religion, it was found wanting. From that shocking reality, it didn't take long for the whole house of cards to fall down.

After I left Seminary, and Christianity behind, I still found myself with an emotional need to believe in "something more". That desire is deeply ingrained into usas we are raised. Since I was against Christianity, I decided like many young people that this meant I was to be anti-Christian, and what is more "anti-Christian" than Satanism right? So, I went out, and got my Satanic Bible (I actually still have it crammed on a shelf somewhere in my library; I haven't so much as cracked the cover in decades), found a satanic church, and began immediately prostrating myself to our Glorious Dark Lord. It didn't take long at all, for me to come to a somewhat unsettling realisation: I was still allowing myself to be stuck inside the same box that I grew up in. In order to accept the existence of Satan, one must first accept that the Christian theology is accurate. Well, here's a sobering reality for you Satanists: if the Christian theology is accurate, then this story has already been written, and Your. Guy. LOST!!! Being a Satanist, and betting that this will, somehow, enrich your life is rather like betting that the Cleveland Indians are going to beat the Cubs this year. We already know how that game turned out, but, hey! If you want to intentionally make a bet on the losing team, feel free.

So, Christianity was irrational. Satanism is just plain stupid. It was time to climb out of my box. I saw no purpose to Judaism; that's as much a cultural/racial thing, as it is a religious thing. Besides, Judaism is just a forerunner of Christianity, and I had already decided that version of a "higher power"was irrational. I studied Islam for a bit. It didn't take long at all to discover that Islam is just another flavour of the same theology that gave us Judaism, and Christianity. So, since the Christian concept of divinity didn't do it for me, which automatically discounted the Jewish concept of divinity, guess where that left Islam. From there I moved on to Buddhism,Hinduism, even Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, and Rastafarianism. All of those contained within their beliefs their own rational dissonances.

I then discovered, Neo-Paganism. With paganism, I found a religion that seemed to follow the natural laws of physics, and the universe. Over the last decade, or so, I have come to understand that the divinity aspect of paganism is more metaphorical, and allegorical than factual. Hence, I am today an atheist who worships nature.

Theists all seem to think that the only reason one becomes an atheist because some "event" happened in their life, they "got mad at God", and their rejection of religion is some emotional rebellion, like a child throwing a temper tantrum. They can't conceive of the atheist who has rejected religion as a matter of reason, and logic.

Ahhhh... an apostate. That explains much. You think you are too smart for God. So now you spend your time trolling religious forums to mock the beliefs of others. You have filled your God void with a new religion. The fact that you had a God void that needed filling should have been proof enough.

 

[ding]

The sad truth is our standard education system - right up through university - doesn't exactly teach, or encourage critical thinking, or individuality. it teaches students to memorise facts, and figures, and to regurgitate the thoughts, and experiences of other people. It isn't until grad school, and beyond that anyone is ever taught to actually think for themselves.

So how do you explain the fact that the moment I left for university I stopped going to mass and it wasn't until almost 20 years later I started studying religions on my own and determined that Judea/Christianity was the only religion where God was seeking man. While there are many similarities between all religions, the rest are men seeking God.

Since you claim to have attended Seminary school, how are we called to worship God in the Bible?

 

[ding]

I see it like you are like almost every atheist I have met, you only see the bad that men have committed, you don't weight the good. It is not the fault of religion. You are literally throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You have a vague rosy notion of goodness of life without out religion. You don't have to imagine what the world would look like, we have ample examples of the 20th century of what a society without religion looks like. Your logic is flawed to say the least.

Here is how I imagine a world without religion would look like... their religion would be socialism. They would worship big government and social policy. It would be based on atheism and the deification of man. It would proceed in almost all of its manifestations from the assumption that the basic principles guiding the life of the individual and of mankind in general do not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs or primitive instincts. They would have no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure. Their doctrine would be abolition of private property, abolition of family and communality or equality. They would practice moral relativity, indiscriminate indiscriminateness, multiculturalism, cultural marxism and normalization of deviance. They would be identified by an external locus of control. They would worship science but would be the first to argue against it when it did not suit their cause. They would force everyone to believe the same things and think the same way. There would be no diversity of thought, only homogenization of thought.

The fact that you don't see any good done by men because of religion means that you are not objective about this at all.

.

your response was not an answer to the question.

I see it like you are like almost every atheist I have met, you only see the bad that men have committed, you don't weight the good.

it is christianity that is blind ...

The fact that you don't see any good done by men because of religion means that you are not objective about this at all.

that has not been its role in history as pointed out to you already, you are the one who claims Jesus was crucified for being a capitalist not for their religion as astonishing as that may be ...

.

Do you want to abolish religion?

.

Do you want to abolish religion?

answer the question above, have you repentance for your crime christian ... the gale would like to know. without her you are doomed.


neither the religious nor atheist have an inside track for admission to the Everlasting only the Triumph of Good vs Evil will prevail. not chritianity, judaism nor islam; Noah's parable is the religion of the bible. the spoken religion of the Almighty.

.

Sure just as soon as you tell me if you want to abolish Christianity, ok?

.

Sure just as soon as you tell me if you want to abolish Christianity, ok?

those who worship a book of lies is not the problem, the problem begins when they attempt to impose their unjust will on others, that is what a matured society and the U S Constitution attempts to accomplish.


an atheist's Spirit that conquers evil is a candidate for admission to the Everlasting despite the book of lies so for that reason christianity need not be abolished but simply abandoned for those who profess goodness, eternal life and the just authority of the Almighty.

.

I don't worship a book. But would you abolish Christianity if you could?

 

[Czernobog]

The sad truth is our standard education system - right up through university - doesn't exactly teach, or encourage critical thinking, or individuality. it teaches students to memorise facts, and figures, and to regurgitate the thoughts, and experiences of other people. It isn't until grad school, and beyond that anyone is ever taught to actually think for themselves.

So how do you explain the fact that the moment I left for university I stopped going to mass and it wasn't until almost 20 years later I started studying religions on my own and determined that Judea/Christianity was the only religion where God was seeking man. While there are many similarities between all religions, the rest are men seeking God.

Since you claim to have attended Seminary school, how are we called to worship God in the Bible?

I can't explain why you would choose to return to ignorance. Only you can explain that.

You are asking the wrong question - either because you didn't understand my account, or because you want to try to prove my account false. You ask how we are called to worship as described by a book that is flawed, irrational, and inconsistent. Could I answer your simplistic query? Could I elucidate about the focus, the fuel, and the decree to worship? Sure. Could I blather on about the purpose of worship, and weave together a narrative using the Books of James, John, Acts, and even Jeremiah? Not a problem. But, why? That is just so much regurgitation of religious indoctrination. When you can move beyond the indoctrination, to ask the questions that actually matter, you let me know.

 

[ding]

The sad truth is our standard education system - right up through university - doesn't exactly teach, or encourage critical thinking, or individuality. it teaches students to memorise facts, and figures, and to regurgitate the thoughts, and experiences of other people. It isn't until grad school, and beyond that anyone is ever taught to actually think for themselves.

So how do you explain the fact that the moment I left for university I stopped going to mass and it wasn't until almost 20 years later I started studying religions on my own and determined that Judea/Christianity was the only religion where God was seeking man. While there are many similarities between all religions, the rest are men seeking God.

Since you claim to have attended Seminary school, how are we called to worship God in the Bible?

I can't explain why you would choose to return to ignorance. Only you can explain that.

You are asking the wrong question - either because you didn't understand my account, or because you want to try to prove my account false. You ask how we are called to worship as described by a book that is flawed, irrational, and inconsistent. Could I answer your simplistic query? Could I elucidate about the focus, the fuel, and the decree to worship? Sure. Could I blather on about the purpose of worship, and weave together a narrative using the Books of James, John, Acts, and even Jeremiah? Not a problem. But, why? That is just so much regurgitation of religious indoctrination. When you can move beyond the indoctrination, to ask the questions that actually matter, you let me know.

lol, none of those answers come close. You don't have to guess, He told us. We were told to worship __ _____ ___ _____.

Why was Jesus born into this world? I doubt you know that either.

I wasn't asking you to explain why I returned to my faith. I was countering your argument that critical thinking leads to atheism. In fact, you only think you practice critical thinking. What you really practice is critical theory. They are not the same thing.

The two questions I am asking you are central to your failure in understanding the Bible and the root cause of why you intentionally go out of your way to seek out Christians to mock.

 

[Czernobog]

The sad truth is our standard education system - right up through university - doesn't exactly teach, or encourage critical thinking, or individuality. it teaches students to memorise facts, and figures, and to regurgitate the thoughts, and experiences of other people. It isn't until grad school, and beyond that anyone is ever taught to actually think for themselves.

So how do you explain the fact that the moment I left for university I stopped going to mass and it wasn't until almost 20 years later I started studying religions on my own and determined that Judea/Christianity was the only religion where God was seeking man. While there are many similarities between all religions, the rest are men seeking God.

Since you claim to have attended Seminary school, how are we called to worship God in the Bible?

I can't explain why you would choose to return to ignorance. Only you can explain that.

You are asking the wrong question - either because you didn't understand my account, or because you want to try to prove my account false. You ask how we are called to worship as described by a book that is flawed, irrational, and inconsistent. Could I answer your simplistic query? Could I elucidate about the focus, the fuel, and the decree to worship? Sure. Could I blather on about the purpose of worship, and weave together a narrative using the Books of James, John, Acts, and even Jeremiah? Not a problem. But, why? That is just so much regurgitation of religious indoctrination. When you can move beyond the indoctrination, to ask the questions that actually matter, you let me know.

lol, none of those answers come close. You don't have to guess, He told us. We were told to worship __ _____ ___ _____.

Why was Jesus born into this world? I doubt you know that either.

I wasn't asking you to explain why I returned to my faith. I was countering your argument that critical thinking leads to atheism. In fact, you only think you practice critical thinking. What you really practice is critical theory. They are not the same thing.

The two questions I am asking you are central to your failure in understanding the Bible and the root cause of why you intentionally go out of your way to seek out Christians to mock.

No, they aren't. According to the Bible, Jesus was born into this world to save us from the consequences (separation from God) of our sin. So what? In order for that to matter, one must first accept that we need saving. And the only reason that we "need saving" is because the Bible tells us we do. It is a religion creating an imaginary condition for which it, alone, can provide the imaginary cure.

Before even concerning one's self with that terrible separation from God, first one must know that this God exists. Neither you, nor anyone else has been able to prove that. So, in order to accept the existence of God, I must first suspend reason, and just believe in the existence of a thing for which there is no reasonable evidence.

Your argument fails at its foundation.

The questions you are asking have nothing to do with Seminary - they have to do with grade school Sunday School.

 

[BreezeWood]

.

your response was not an answer to the question.


it is christianity that is blind ...


that has not been its role in history as pointed out to you already, you are the one who claims Jesus was crucified for being a capitalist not for their religion as astonishing as that may be ...

.

Do you want to abolish religion?

.

Do you want to abolish religion?

answer the question above, have you repentance for your crime christian ... the gale would like to know. without her you are doomed.


neither the religious nor atheist have an inside track for admission to the Everlasting only the Triumph of Good vs Evil will prevail. not chritianity, judaism nor islam; Noah's parable is the religion of the bible. the spoken religion of the Almighty.

.

Sure just as soon as you tell me if you want to abolish Christianity, ok?

.

Sure just as soon as you tell me if you want to abolish Christianity, ok?

those who worship a book of lies is not the problem, the problem begins when they attempt to impose their unjust will on others, that is what a matured society and the U S Constitution attempts to accomplish.


an atheist's Spirit that conquers evil is a candidate for admission to the Everlasting despite the book of lies so for that reason christianity need not be abolished but simply abandoned for those who profess goodness, eternal life and the just authority of the Almighty.

.

I don't worship a book. But would you abolish Christianity if you could?

.

I answered your question, have you repented your crime or not ... seems you could care less about where your book of lies has led its followers or correctly it has been its followers that chose your book.

.

 

[ding]

Do you want to abolish religion?

.

Do you want to abolish religion?

answer the question above, have you repentance for your crime christian ... the gale would like to know. without her you are doomed.


neither the religious nor atheist have an inside track for admission to the Everlasting only the Triumph of Good vs Evil will prevail. not chritianity, judaism nor islam; Noah's parable is the religion of the bible. the spoken religion of the Almighty.

.

Sure just as soon as you tell me if you want to abolish Christianity, ok?

.

Sure just as soon as you tell me if you want to abolish Christianity, ok?

those who worship a book of lies is not the problem, the problem begins when they attempt to impose their unjust will on others, that is what a matured society and the U S Constitution attempts to accomplish.


an atheist's Spirit that conquers evil is a candidate for admission to the Everlasting despite the book of lies so for that reason christianity need not be abolished but simply abandoned for those who profess goodness, eternal life and the just authority of the Almighty.

.

I don't worship a book. But would you abolish Christianity if you could?

.

I answered your question, have you repented your crime or not ... seems you could care less about where your book of lies has led its followers or correctly it has been its followers that chose your book.

.

What crime have I committed again? Do you even know what repent means? And no, you didn't answer the question. I would think if you really believed that Christianity were so evil you wouldn't hesitate to ban it or even shout from the rooftops that it should be banned. Heck, you might even want to round them up and destroy them if you really believed they evil. Do you know why they stopped burning witches? Because they realized they weren't witches. If we really believed that there were evil beings whose intent was to do evil, destroying them would be the right thing to do, would it not?

 

[ding]

The sad truth is our standard education system - right up through university - doesn't exactly teach, or encourage critical thinking, or individuality. it teaches students to memorise facts, and figures, and to regurgitate the thoughts, and experiences of other people. It isn't until grad school, and beyond that anyone is ever taught to actually think for themselves.

So how do you explain the fact that the moment I left for university I stopped going to mass and it wasn't until almost 20 years later I started studying religions on my own and determined that Judea/Christianity was the only religion where God was seeking man. While there are many similarities between all religions, the rest are men seeking God.

Since you claim to have attended Seminary school, how are we called to worship God in the Bible?

I can't explain why you would choose to return to ignorance. Only you can explain that.

You are asking the wrong question - either because you didn't understand my account, or because you want to try to prove my account false. You ask how we are called to worship as described by a book that is flawed, irrational, and inconsistent. Could I answer your simplistic query? Could I elucidate about the focus, the fuel, and the decree to worship? Sure. Could I blather on about the purpose of worship, and weave together a narrative using the Books of James, John, Acts, and even Jeremiah? Not a problem. But, why? That is just so much regurgitation of religious indoctrination. When you can move beyond the indoctrination, to ask the questions that actually matter, you let me know.

lol, none of those answers come close. You don't have to guess, He told us. We were told to worship __ _____ ___ _____.

Why was Jesus born into this world? I doubt you know that either.

I wasn't asking you to explain why I returned to my faith. I was countering your argument that critical thinking leads to atheism. In fact, you only think you practice critical thinking. What you really practice is critical theory. They are not the same thing.

The two questions I am asking you are central to your failure in understanding the Bible and the root cause of why you intentionally go out of your way to seek out Christians to mock.

No, they aren't. According to the Bible, Jesus was born into this world to save us from the consequences (separation from God) of our sin. So what? In order for that to matter, one must first accept that we need saving. And the only reason that we "need saving" is because the Bible tells us we do. It is a religion creating an imaginary condition for which it, alone, can provide the imaginary cure.

Before even concerning one's self with that terrible separation from God, first one must know that this God exists. Neither you, nor anyone else has been able to prove that. So, in order to accept the existence of God, I must first suspend reason, and just believe in the existence of a thing for which there is no reasonable evidence.

Your argument fails at its foundation.

The questions you are asking have nothing to do with Seminary - they have to do with grade school Sunday School.

What Seminary school did you go to because you failed on both counts. Why are you guessing? Don't you know that He told us why He was born into this world? Don't you know that He told us how to worship God? Did they offer a prize with their crackerjack diploma?