If your kids turn out gay, would you kill them as Bible/Islam imply?

[Divine Wind]

Question: If your children turn out to eventually be gay, would you kill them as the Bible/Islamic texts imply, or are the Bible/Islamic texts wrong? Which is it?

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

If you reply "I don't follow the OT", that's great - then admit that it's wrong (or else you'd follow it).

I believe in loving gays, so of course I think we can move beyond the morality in the Bible/Islamic texts since they got it wrong.

Your opinion?

Religions can "evolve" during the years. You can see Christians used violence in the past but now they don't do any violent act.
So you don't have to choose between killing your gay children or declaring Bible or Koran wrong.
Plus religious texts must be decoded because parts of those books are allegorical

If they need to "evolve" then they are NOT from an all-knowing god, and that also would show that the Bible is wrong because a number of Biblical passages say that god does not CHANGE.

Well this is a real problem. I'm not a specialist in religions but maybe somebody could suppose an all-knowing divinity wants his own religion to change through the years (for unknown reasons)

God didn't set up the Abrahamic religions; mankind did so. Believers think there is an all powerful entity which is the force behind the creation of the universe, but what that entity expects from us is pure guesswork, hence not only why there are so many different religions in the world, be so many interpretations of the Bible.

The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition)

• there are 33,000+ total of these "Christian denominations" in 238 total countries

These 33,000 are subdivided into "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs", and ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :

• Independents (about 22000)
• Protestants (about 9000)
• "Marginals" (about 1600)
• Orthodox (781)
• Roman Catholics (242)
• Anglicans (168)

So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:

 

[Tilly]

Question: If your children turn out to eventually be gay, would you kill them as the Bible/Islamic texts imply, or are the Bible/Islamic texts wrong? Which is it?

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

If you reply "I don't follow the OT", that's great - then admit that it's wrong (or else you'd follow it).

I believe in loving gays, so of course I think we can move beyond the morality in the Bible/Islamic texts since they got it wrong.

Your opinion?

Religions can "evolve" during the years. You can see Christians used violence in the past but now they don't do any violent act.
So you don't have to choose between killing your gay children or declaring Bible or Koran wrong.
Plus religious texts must be decoded because parts of those books are allegorical

If they need to "evolve" then they are NOT from an all-knowing god, and that also would show that the Bible is wrong because a number of Biblical passages say that god does not CHANGE.

But people, yes....even Christians.... have free will.

 

[Divine Wind]

Question: If your children turn out to eventually be gay, would you kill them as the Bible/Islamic texts imply, or are the Bible/Islamic texts wrong? Which is it?

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

If you reply "I don't follow the OT", that's great - then admit that it's wrong (or else you'd follow it).

I believe in loving gays, so of course I think we can move beyond the morality in the Bible/Islamic texts since they got it wrong.

Your opinion?

Religions can "evolve" during the years. You can see Christians used violence in the past but now they don't do any violent act.
So you don't have to choose between killing your gay children or declaring Bible or Koran wrong.
Plus religious texts must be decoded because parts of those books are allegorical

If they need to "evolve" then they are NOT from an all-knowing god, and that also would show that the Bible is wrong because a number of Biblical passages say that god does not CHANGE.

But people, yes....even Christians.... have free will.

Agreed, but many atheists believe human beings are ambulatory meat computers reacting to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a pile of their basic components. This is why the atheists Stalin and Mao can justify murdering millions of their own citizens to advance their political agenda.

 

[depotoo]

Joy, let me ask you this. If you read a book do you open it to pages and read one passage, make a judgement to its content and then move forward to another chapter and page, and do the same, to come to a conclusion of what has occurred?
I can confidently assure you that any supposition or judgement you were to make would probably be erroneous as to the plot or intent of its authors, which is exactly what you wish to do here. Particularly if you do such with a bias when you begin.


Here is an example for you.
I saw red when he came at me. Chapter 2. Page 60. Line 75.

I just want to kill him. Chapter 3. Page 90. Line 30.

I am so glad he is dead and it is over with, now to get cleaned up. Chapter 4. Page 105. Line 10.

Reading and quoting only those lines, one would assume that individual is attempting to make the reader of them believe only a single person, with a vengeance for a single individual has killed that someone. Yet each passage refers to a circumstance completely unrelated, and no one was even killed.


You are here picking passages out of the Bible to push your agenda, only. You have no desire for others to see anything but what you or others have chosen to push. You prefer to push a line as literal, rather than let your reader understand each line, throughout the Bible, intertwined with others throughout, paint a picture which each line individually does and cannot.
I feel sad for you, for whatever circumstance in your life, so set you on a path that you wish to mislead others because of your pain, hate, or whatever it is, that pushes you to do such.


There are theologians today that can help others to understand, if they so have a desire.

You cannot, with your singular desire, or others like you.

 

[irosie91]

Question: If your children turn out to eventually be gay, would you kill them as the Bible/Islamic texts imply, or are the Bible/Islamic texts wrong? Which is it?

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

If you reply "I don't follow the OT", that's great - then admit that it's wrong (or else you'd follow it).

I believe in loving gays, so of course I think we can move beyond the morality in the Bible/Islamic texts since they got it wrong.

Your opinion?

Religions can "evolve" during the years. You can see Christians used violence in the past but now they don't do any violent act.
So you don't have to choose between killing your gay children or declaring Bible or Koran wrong.
Plus religious texts must be decoded because parts of those books are allegorical

If they need to "evolve" then they are NOT from an all-knowing god, and that also would show that the Bible is wrong because a number of Biblical passages say that god does not CHANGE.

But people, yes....even Christians.... have free will.

Agreed, but many atheists believe human beings are ambulatory meat computers reacting to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a pile of their basic components. This is why the atheists Stalin and Mao can justify murdering millions of their own citizens to advance their political agenda.

not a useful argument, divine-person. Millions of people have been murdered
in the name of "GOD" too

 

[Divine Wind]

Question: If your children turn out to eventually be gay, would you kill them as the Bible/Islamic texts imply, or are the Bible/Islamic texts wrong? Which is it?

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

If you reply "I don't follow the OT", that's great - then admit that it's wrong (or else you'd follow it).

I believe in loving gays, so of course I think we can move beyond the morality in the Bible/Islamic texts since they got it wrong.

Your opinion?

Religions can "evolve" during the years. You can see Christians used violence in the past but now they don't do any violent act.
So you don't have to choose between killing your gay children or declaring Bible or Koran wrong.
Plus religious texts must be decoded because parts of those books are allegorical

If they need to "evolve" then they are NOT from an all-knowing god, and that also would show that the Bible is wrong because a number of Biblical passages say that god does not CHANGE.

But people, yes....even Christians.... have free will.

Agreed, but many atheists believe human beings are ambulatory meat computers reacting to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a pile of their basic components. This is why the atheists Stalin and Mao can justify murdering millions of their own citizens to advance their political agenda.

not a useful argument, divine-person. Millions of people have been murdered
in the name of "GOD" too

It's not an "argument", Rose, it's a fact.

Agreed that many have died in the "name of God", but it wasn't God doing it. It was people. Not sure if it was millions either. WWII wasn't over religion even though the fucking Nazis murdered millions for their religion.

 

[irosie91]

Religions can "evolve" during the years. You can see Christians used violence in the past but now they don't do any violent act.
So you don't have to choose between killing your gay children or declaring Bible or Koran wrong.
Plus religious texts must be decoded because parts of those books are allegorical

If they need to "evolve" then they are NOT from an all-knowing god, and that also would show that the Bible is wrong because a number of Biblical passages say that god does not CHANGE.

But people, yes....even Christians.... have free will.

Agreed, but many atheists believe human beings are ambulatory meat computers reacting to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a pile of their basic components. This is why the atheists Stalin and Mao can justify murdering millions of their own citizens to advance their political agenda.

not a useful argument, divine-person. Millions of people have been murdered
in the name of "GOD" too

It's not an "argument", Rose, it's a fact.

Agreed that many have died in the "name of God", but it wasn't God doing it. It was people. Not sure if it was millions either. WWII wasn't over religion even though the fucking Nazis murdered millions for their religion.

"it wasn't "god" doing it"??? what does that mean?. It wasn't millions----it was
tens if not hundreds of millions. You should learn a bit as to how Christianity was
spread thruout the world. The founder of Christianity-----Constantine----killed at least in the thousands (well---make that tens of thousands). As far as HE was
concerned -----his "god" told him to do it. Your pal ADOLF did not invent the
Nuremburg laws-----the great "saint" Constantine did. After that review the career of HERNAN CORTEZ

 

[irosie91]

Religions can "evolve" during the years. You can see Christians used violence in the past but now they don't do any violent act.
So you don't have to choose between killing your gay children or declaring Bible or Koran wrong.
Plus religious texts must be decoded because parts of those books are allegorical

If they need to "evolve" then they are NOT from an all-knowing god, and that also would show that the Bible is wrong because a number of Biblical passages say that god does not CHANGE.

But people, yes....even Christians.... have free will.

Agreed, but many atheists believe human beings are ambulatory meat computers reacting to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a pile of their basic components. This is why the atheists Stalin and Mao can justify murdering millions of their own citizens to advance their political agenda.

not a useful argument, divine-person. Millions of people have been murdered
in the name of "GOD" too

It's not an "argument", Rose, it's a fact.

Agreed that many have died in the "name of God", but it wasn't God doing it. It was people. Not sure if it was millions either. WWII wasn't over religion even though the fucking Nazis murdered millions for their religion.

if you imagine that adolf could have accomplished his genocidal program without
the PRIMING of the same canon law that legalized the inquisition and pogroms for
centuries---thruout the catholic, protestant and eastern orthodox ------you are damned naïve. The Hungarians were not particularly
"Nazi" in orientation-----nor were the Italians nor were the Poles

 

[Divine Wind]

"it wasn't "god" doing it"??? what does that mean?. It wasn't millions----it was
tens if not hundreds of millions. You should learn a bit as to how Christianity was
spread thruout the world. The founder of Christianity-----Constantine----killed at least in the thousands (well---make that tens of thousands). As far as HE was
concerned -----his "god" told him to do it. Your pal ADOLF did not invent the
Nuremburg laws-----the great "saint" Constantine did. After that review the career of HERNAN CORTEZ

Link please.

 

[Divine Wind]

If they need to "evolve" then they are NOT from an all-knowing god, and that also would show that the Bible is wrong because a number of Biblical passages say that god does not CHANGE.

But people, yes....even Christians.... have free will.

Agreed, but many atheists believe human beings are ambulatory meat computers reacting to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a pile of their basic components. This is why the atheists Stalin and Mao can justify murdering millions of their own citizens to advance their political agenda.

not a useful argument, divine-person. Millions of people have been murdered
in the name of "GOD" too

It's not an "argument", Rose, it's a fact.

Agreed that many have died in the "name of God", but it wasn't God doing it. It was people. Not sure if it was millions either. WWII wasn't over religion even though the fucking Nazis murdered millions for their religion.

if you imagine that adolf could have accomplished his genocidal program without
the PRIMING of the same canon law that legalized the inquisition and pogroms for
centuries---thruout the catholic, protestant and eastern orthodox ------you are damned naïve. The Hungarians were not particularly
"Nazi" in orientation-----nor were the Italians nor were the Poles

By your logic, then the US Constitution is responsible for slavery and every member of Congress and every state that ratified the Constitution is responsible for slavery.

 

[JusticeHammer]

Yep, Muslims and liberals are psychotic. My sense of reality is the correct option. Good luck.

So, you're not a Christian who believes in love thy neighbor and turning the other cheek, so what are you? Someone who wears Christianity as a mask to justify hurting others?

You're making assumptions. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Then why do you hate both?

Typical, you are clueless to what you are talking about.

 

[irosie91]

"it wasn't "god" doing it"??? what does that mean?. It wasn't millions----it was
tens if not hundreds of millions. You should learn a bit as to how Christianity was
spread thruout the world. The founder of Christianity-----Constantine----killed at least in the thousands (well---make that tens of thousands). As far as HE was
concerned -----his "god" told him to do it. Your pal ADOLF did not invent the
Nuremburg laws-----the great "saint" Constantine did. After that review the career of HERNAN CORTEZ

Link please.

you want a link to the HISTORY OF THE WORLD ?-------Constantine imposed
Christianity, thru oppressive laws on "non-Christians".
in the newly designated "PALESTINA" and "AELIA CAPITOLINA" You did not know? He destroyed the entire jewish community there-----except those who managed to hide out in caves in the area------in danger of death. It is an interesting history and the forerunner of the Inquisition. Details of the laws
imposed there also show up in Shariah law-------then the Nuremburg laws.
You want links to Hernan Cortez and his confiscation of the wealth of
mexico FOR DA CHURCH-----and murder of Montezuma?

 

[irosie91]

But people, yes....even Christians.... have free will.

Agreed, but many atheists believe human beings are ambulatory meat computers reacting to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a pile of their basic components. This is why the atheists Stalin and Mao can justify murdering millions of their own citizens to advance their political agenda.

not a useful argument, divine-person. Millions of people have been murdered
in the name of "GOD" too

It's not an "argument", Rose, it's a fact.

Agreed that many have died in the "name of God", but it wasn't God doing it. It was people. Not sure if it was millions either. WWII wasn't over religion even though the fucking Nazis murdered millions for their religion.

if you imagine that adolf could have accomplished his genocidal program without
the PRIMING of the same canon law that legalized the inquisition and pogroms for
centuries---thruout the catholic, protestant and eastern orthodox ------you are damned naïve. The Hungarians were not particularly
"Nazi" in orientation-----nor were the Italians nor were the Poles

By your logic, then the US Constitution is responsible for slavery and every member of Congress and every state that ratified the Constitution is responsible for slavery.

Your rejoinder, divine person----makes no sense at all. Slavery of black
persons in the USA was the result of the beliefs of the people of the USA----
who considered it a good idea and ----IN GENERAL---not a contradiction of
church doctrine. Was chattel slavery ever outlawed by DA CHURCH?

 

[Divine Wind]

"it wasn't "god" doing it"??? what does that mean?. It wasn't millions----it was
tens if not hundreds of millions. You should learn a bit as to how Christianity was
spread thruout the world. The founder of Christianity-----Constantine----killed at least in the thousands (well---make that tens of thousands). As far as HE was
concerned -----his "god" told him to do it. Your pal ADOLF did not invent the
Nuremburg laws-----the great "saint" Constantine did. After that review the career of HERNAN CORTEZ

Link please.

you want a link to the HISTORY OF THE WORLD ?-------Constantine imposed
Christianity, thru oppressive laws on "non-Christians".
in the newly designated "PALESTINA" and "AELIA CAPITOLINA" You did not know? He destroyed the entire jewish community there-----except those who managed to hide out in caves in the area------in danger of death. It is an interesting history and the forerunner of the Inquisition. Details of the laws
imposed there also show up in Shariah law-------then the Nuremburg laws.
You want links to Hernan Cortez and his confiscation of the wealth of
mexico FOR DA CHURCH-----and murder of Montezuma?

Nice dodge, but you're smart enough to know that I want a link to your claim that Christians killed millions in the name of God.

 

[Divine Wind]

Yep, Muslims and liberals are psychotic. My sense of reality is the correct option. Good luck.

So, you're not a Christian who believes in love thy neighbor and turning the other cheek, so what are you? Someone who wears Christianity as a mask to justify hurting others?

You're making assumptions. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Then why do you hate both?

Typical, you are clueless to what you are talking about.

On the contrary, the fact you are so defensive and cannot back up your opinions with fact proves which of us is the fucking clueless idiot.

 

[irosie91]

"it wasn't "god" doing it"??? what does that mean?. It wasn't millions----it was
tens if not hundreds of millions. You should learn a bit as to how Christianity was
spread thruout the world. The founder of Christianity-----Constantine----killed at least in the thousands (well---make that tens of thousands). As far as HE was
concerned -----his "god" told him to do it. Your pal ADOLF did not invent the
Nuremburg laws-----the great "saint" Constantine did. After that review the career of HERNAN CORTEZ

Link please.

you want a link to the HISTORY OF THE WORLD ?-------Constantine imposed
Christianity, thru oppressive laws on "non-Christians".
in the newly designated "PALESTINA" and "AELIA CAPITOLINA" You did not know? He destroyed the entire jewish community there-----except those who managed to hide out in caves in the area------in danger of death. It is an interesting history and the forerunner of the Inquisition. Details of the laws
imposed there also show up in Shariah law-------then the Nuremburg laws.
You want links to Hernan Cortez and his confiscation of the wealth of
mexico FOR DA CHURCH-----and murder of Montezuma?

Nice dodge, but you're smart enough to know that I want a link to your claim that Christians killed millions in the name of God.

You want a link to the past 1700 years of Christianity? ----that's silly ---
that would take LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of links. ---you can start with
the genocide of native americans (for the sake of geographical proximity)---
try to remember-----the NEW WORLD was "claimed for Christendom" by such
SAINTS as HERNAN CORTEZ-----for SAINT ISABELLA

 

[Divine Wind]

Agreed, but many atheists believe human beings are ambulatory meat computers reacting to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a pile of their basic components. This is why the atheists Stalin and Mao can justify murdering millions of their own citizens to advance their political agenda.

not a useful argument, divine-person. Millions of people have been murdered
in the name of "GOD" too

It's not an "argument", Rose, it's a fact.

Agreed that many have died in the "name of God", but it wasn't God doing it. It was people. Not sure if it was millions either. WWII wasn't over religion even though the fucking Nazis murdered millions for their religion.

if you imagine that adolf could have accomplished his genocidal program without
the PRIMING of the same canon law that legalized the inquisition and pogroms for
centuries---thruout the catholic, protestant and eastern orthodox ------you are damned naïve. The Hungarians were not particularly
"Nazi" in orientation-----nor were the Italians nor were the Poles

By your logic, then the US Constitution is responsible for slavery and every member of Congress and every state that ratified the Constitution is responsible for slavery.

Your rejoinder, divine person----makes no sense at all. Slavery of black
persons in the USA was the result of the beliefs of the people of the USA----
who considered it a good idea and ----IN GENERAL---not a contradiction of
church doctrine. Was chattel slavery ever outlawed by DA CHURCH?

Are you saying the US invented slavery? Are you seriously claiming that if it wasn't for the Protestants fleeing Catholic Europe that slavery would never have existed in the Americas, much less the world? Wow. I'd really like to see you back that up.

Meanwhile, some light reading while you gather your facts:
Slavery in Ancient Aztec, Mayan and Inca
Slavery in Aztec society was in some ways more humane than in Western cultures. While some slaves were punished criminals or prisoners of war, others sold themselves or their children into slavery due to economic hardship. Slaves could free themselves by repaying their purchase price. They could marry and own property, and their children were born free.

An Aztec slave market (right) (Historia … de Nueva España). The slave has a wooden collar around his neck, which could indicate either ill treatment by the owner or bad behavior by the slave. A collared slave could gain freedom by running inside the ruler’s palace.

 

[irosie91]

not a useful argument, divine-person. Millions of people have been murdered
in the name of "GOD" too

It's not an "argument", Rose, it's a fact.

Agreed that many have died in the "name of God", but it wasn't God doing it. It was people. Not sure if it was millions either. WWII wasn't over religion even though the fucking Nazis murdered millions for their religion.

if you imagine that adolf could have accomplished his genocidal program without
the PRIMING of the same canon law that legalized the inquisition and pogroms for
centuries---thruout the catholic, protestant and eastern orthodox ------you are damned naïve. The Hungarians were not particularly
"Nazi" in orientation-----nor were the Italians nor were the Poles

By your logic, then the US Constitution is responsible for slavery and every member of Congress and every state that ratified the Constitution is responsible for slavery.

Your rejoinder, divine person----makes no sense at all. Slavery of black
persons in the USA was the result of the beliefs of the people of the USA----
who considered it a good idea and ----IN GENERAL---not a contradiction of
church doctrine. Was chattel slavery ever outlawed by DA CHURCH?

Are you saying the US invented slavery? Are you seriously claiming that if it wasn't for the Protestants fleeing Catholic Europe that slavery would never have existed in the Americas, much less the world? Wow. I'd really like to see you back that up.

Meanwhile, some light reading while you gather your facts:
Slavery in Ancient Aztec, Mayan and Inca
Slavery in Aztec society was in some ways more humane than in Western cultures. While some slaves were punished criminals or prisoners of war, others sold themselves or their children into slavery due to economic hardship. Slaves could free themselves by repaying their purchase price. They could marry and own property, and their children were born free.

An Aztec slave market (right) (Historia … de Nueva España). The slave has a wooden collar around his neck, which could indicate either ill treatment by the owner or bad behavior by the slave. A collared slave could gain freedom by running inside the ruler’s palace.

you AGAIN make no sense. At no point did I suggest that the AZTECS did not engage in slavery. Slavery has existed now and then in various forms thruout
the world------in CHRISTIAN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA-----slavery was----in general of the most brutal CHATTEL TYPE------a left over from the ROMAN
EMPIRE------the first, second reichs. The slavery in Merry old England-----
was a child of the roman empire form too------and ----also various forms \of INDENTURED slavery (not dependent on race)

 

[Divine Wind]

you AGAIN make no sense.....

Then why do you bother with me? Bored?

Slavery has existed in all of human history. Far longer than the Roman Empire. You should consider reading more history.

Let me help get you started:
HISTORY OF SLAVERY
Slavery enters human history with civilization. Hunter-gatherers and primitive farmers have no use for a slave. They collect or grow just enough food for themselves. One more pair of hands is one more mouth. There is no economic advantage in owning another human being.

Once people gather in towns and cities, a surplus of food created in the countryside (often now on large estates) makes possible a wide range of crafts in the town. On a large farm or in a workshop there is real benefit in a reliable source of cheap labour, costing no more than the minimum of food and lodging. These are the conditions for slavery. Every ancient civilization uses slaves. And it proves easy to acquire them.

Code of Hammurabi, from Babylon in the 18th century BC, gives chilling details of the different Rewards and penalties for surgeons operating on free men or slaves. But it also reveals that the system is not one of unmitigated brutality. Surprisingly, Babylonian slaves are themselves allowed to own property.

But the first civilization in which we know a great deal about the role of slaves is that of ancient Greece....

 

[irosie91]

you AGAIN make no sense.....

Then why do you bother with me? Bored?

Slavery has existed in all of human history. Far longer than the Roman Empire. You should consider reading more history.

Let me help get you started:
HISTORY OF SLAVERY
Slavery enters human history with civilization. Hunter-gatherers and primitive farmers have no use for a slave. They collect or grow just enough food for themselves. One more pair of hands is one more mouth. There is no economic advantage in owning another human being.

Once people gather in towns and cities, a surplus of food created in the countryside (often now on large estates) makes possible a wide range of crafts in the town. On a large farm or in a workshop there is real benefit in a reliable source of cheap labour, costing no more than the minimum of food and lodging. These are the conditions for slavery. Every ancient civilization uses slaves. And it proves easy to acquire them.

Code of Hammurabi, from Babylon in the 18th century BC, gives chilling details of the different Rewards and penalties for surgeons operating on free men or slaves. But it also reveals that the system is not one of unmitigated brutality. Surprisingly, Babylonian slaves are themselves allowed to own property.

But the first civilization in which we know a great deal about the role of slaves is that of ancient Greece....

you have stated nothing that I did not know -----before you were born.
The rules and laws of slavery have been VERY VARIED over time and
place. Slavery in the ROMAN empire (that means Christian Europe and
parts of North Africa and---the NEW WORLD) was---in cases of racial slavery---
brutal chattel slavery. There were also formed involving the INDENTURED
STATUS