Is it immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

[TheGreatGatsby]

There are plenty of passages in the bible that stoning is okay and that if a man rapes a young girl, he must pay the father money and then force the girl to marry him.

Not one in the King James Bible. Prove me wrong. You won't.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Didn't Bush call Islam a religion of peace?

Fail.

I said that in the OP, dude.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Much as you'd like to chalk this up to relgious bigotry, that's just a reach. A dude writes a murder manual, I'm not going to support it. SImple as that. I don't have go to church to have that moral stance.

Well, if you did go to church, you'd realize that the Bible is more of a Murder Manual than the Koran is.

"Happy is he who dashes thy little ones' heads against the Stones"- Psalm 137:9.

BTW, we are dealing with blood thirsty hoards. What do you think ISIS is?

ISIS is a group of thugs that managed to gain power because Bush destabilized a country that never attacked us over weapons that didn't exist.

If you look at the entire psalm it is a remembrance of retribution against the Babylonians who warred with the Israelites. It's not advocating random murder of children... Frankly, much could've been lost in translation in the second place over the centuries. It does seem a bit rough. But that's one miniscule pretty well obscure passage. The murderous fiery rhetoric of the Quran is un-f'ing-deniable. There's just no comparision whatsoever.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

This thread inspired by the insight of former GBII adviser Elliot Abrams and the audacious rhetoric of Mr. Mohamad Mukadam.

Abrams states:

What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I think it's very important that the United States government shut-up about that question...

It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I was working, would say, 'Islam is a religion of peace...

For American government officials to be telling Muslims, 'I know real Islam' ... is ridiculous. It would be an outrage about Judaism and Christianity as well. ... For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool's errand...

The average American thinks this (that Islam is a religion of peace) is crap...

The only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don't tell me it's all wonderful...

Is there something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider to be terrible? And what's the debate within Islam?... That's a real description of a real problem... saying 'Islam is a religion of peace' isn't [realistic].

When asked about if Muslims kill apostates, this was Mr. Mohamad Mukadam's response:

"If it's an Islamic country, the Sharia is very clear. Apostasy is dealt with the death penalty."

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Source: Should Presidents Call Islam a Religion of Peace Two George W. Bush Officials Debate

Source: Mr. Mohamad Mukadam gives his take on death to apostates.

And for the sake of further clarity, George W Bush and Obama have both called Islam a religion of peace; and neither of them have reversed their positions on the matter.

Islam has always been a lot of things... but NEVER has Islam been a religion, or peaceful. Islam is a political organism.

Evil is multifaceted... it has a way to sucker the humanist, which is the Ideological Left and it has a way to sucker the Theists, which is Islam.

The quran is nothing but the murderous constitution of arabia.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Another dopey race-baiting thread.

Go away bigot.

Oooo...the b-word! I'm so scared!

Listen, jackass; I didn't even mention race in the OP. It's interesting though that you seem to associate this as brown muslims vs. white Christians issue. That really outines your own racism and bigotry.

 

[JoeB131]

Had Americans been consulted on the US GWOT... we would have told Turkey to shove their Airspace refusal up their ass... and dared them to have something in the air when we came over... allowing the pincer which would have provided for the defeat of Iraqi military forces inside 96 hours.

which would have accomplished, what, exactly? That we would have removed the only force stabalizing Iraq that much quicker?

We would have gone through Iraq like Sherman and when we rounded up Saddam, shot his fat ass ON SITE. Then we would have left Iraq littered with MILLIONS of leaflets which informed them to choose their next government wisely, because if we have to return we would not be so nice about it. Come and Gone in 90 days...

Yeah, it's funny you mention Sherman. Did the brutality and efficiency of Sherman's action make Southerners stop being a bunch of racist assholes who don't like "Gummit"? No, the South is still just as much full of the dumb, ignorant, racist assholes today as it was in 1865.

Here's the thing. Saddam did not have WMD's. Saddam did not have links to Al Qaeda. We ended up making Iraq a safe haven for Al Qaeda and now ISIS, because we removed Saddam and the operation he had been building up for 40 years.

Afganistan would have remained a straight up S.O. Campaign... inserting to take down key elements of the enemy. Extract, turn out the lights and let the roaches come out of the walls... then hit 'em again, with INTENSE air cover, the Wart Hogs so thick, it looks like a solar eclipse.

You seem to be a little deluded about what military force can and can't accomplish. The problem with Iraq and Afghanistan is that these places were never nations. They were lines on the map drawn for the benefit of imperial powers a century ago. The Soviets tried exactly what you suggested, and it didn't do them a bit of good.

 

[JoeB131]

Damn, another question that is SO HARD to answer.....

Letting Choudary define Islam is like letting Fred Phelps define Christianity.

 

[JoeB131]

There are plenty of passages in the bible that stoning is okay and that if a man rapes a young girl, he must pay the father money and then force the girl to marry him.

Not one in the King James Bible. Prove me wrong. You won't.

Guy, you are making this too easy.

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29

What the Bible says about stoning




For touching Mount Sinai


Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13


For taking "accursed things"


Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26


For cursing or blaspheming


And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16


For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)


If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24


For animals (like an ox that gores a human)


If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28


For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night


If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21


For worshipping other gods


If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5


If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10


For disobeying parents


If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21


For witches and wizards


A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27


For giving your children to Molech


Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2


For breaking the Sabbath


They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56


For cursing the king


Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

 

[JoeB131]

If you look at the entire psalm it is a remembrance of retribution against the Babylonians who warred with the Israelites. It's not advocating random murder of children...

Oh, I see, it advocates the SPECIFIC murder of children. that makes it SOOOOOO much better.

Frankly, much could've been lost in translation in the second place over the centuries. It does seem a bit rough. But that's one miniscule pretty well obscure passage. The murderous fiery rhetoric of the Quran is un-f'ing-deniable. There's just no comparision whatsoever.

No, the entire bible is full of passages like this. In fact, THIS website has identified no more than 1318 verses in the bible advocating cruelty and violence.

Cruelty and Violence

Here's the thing. Christianity isn't violent today because we live in a world where we largely ignore the bible.

And that's also true of MOST of the Islamic world in reference to the Koran.

Our problems with the Middle East are that we keep going over there and fucking with them, not that their religion is any sillier than ours.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

If you look at the entire psalm it is a remembrance of retribution against the Babylonians who warred with the Israelites. It's not advocating random murder of children...

Oh, I see, it advocates the SPECIFIC murder of children. that makes it SOOOOOO much better.

Frankly, much could've been lost in translation in the second place over the centuries. It does seem a bit rough. But that's one miniscule pretty well obscure passage. The murderous fiery rhetoric of the Quran is un-f'ing-deniable. There's just no comparision whatsoever.

No, the entire bible is full of passages like this. In fact, THIS website has identified no more than 1318 verses in the bible advocating cruelty and violence.

Cruelty and Violence

Here's the thing. Christianity isn't violent today because we live in a world where we largely ignore the bible.

And that's also true of MOST of the Islamic world in reference to the Koran.

Our problems with the Middle East are that we keep going over there and fucking with them, not that their religion is any sillier than ours.

The Bible is a book of peace and the quran is a book of war; a comparison would easily validate that reality.

Nobody with a modicum of intelligence believes that muslims actions are justified by so-called western injustices. I am Ron Paulian in that I agree that we should get the fuck out of there. But if we left, they'd still be left with their bile caveman culture.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

There are plenty of passages in the bible that stoning is okay and that if a man rapes a young girl, he must pay the father money and then force the girl to marry him.

Not one in the King James Bible. Prove me wrong. You won't.

Guy, you are making this too easy.

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29

What the Bible says about stoning




For touching Mount Sinai


Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13


For taking "accursed things"


Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26


For cursing or blaspheming


And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16


For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)


If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24


For animals (like an ox that gores a human)


If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28


For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night


If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21


For worshipping other gods


If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5


If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10


For disobeying parents


If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21


For witches and wizards


A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27


For giving your children to Molech


Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2


For breaking the Sabbath


They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56


For cursing the king


Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

The Biblical Israelites lived by 'the lesser law.' I don't have a problem with you not believing in it, or thinking that it was not justified when it was in effect. But you're pretending that these old customs and laws (which you take out of context for the sake of your own bigotry) have any bearing on matters of today. Meanwhile, the quran is quite clear that the infidels must die and millions are taking it to heart.

 

[I.P.Freely]

Goy twerp.

 

[I.P.Freely]

t very peaceful, if you are a non-muslim, perhaps...

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Shouldn't you first prove that Islam is a great evil, there are almost 2 billion muslims on this planet after all?

I guess the whole you believe in Islam or you die thing was not enough proof of evil for you? Give me a break, girl.

Here's some Islamic fruit though, lest you forgotten:

Goy hypocrite

 

[NYcarbineer]

The OP makes a good, solid argument. I am actually very glad that TheGreatGatsby brought this up. Don't faint, Gatsby, sometimes we agree on stuff and you don't even know it.

The real "crux" (let's see who gets that one...) of this issue is how the word "Salaam" (usually translated from Arabic to English to mean "peace") is actually defined in Islam. I believe that many westerners assume quite erroneously that the word "peace" has the same meaning across the world. And that the word has no strings attached to it.

But in the Kuran, Salaam also means to 'subject one-self to Allah' - according to the dictates of Islam, of course, since Islam claims to be the one truth faith and all others are therefore false. In fact, a second dictionary definiton of "Salaam", even published in the western world is:

a very low bow or obeisance, especially with the palm of the right hand placed on the forehead.

So, sure, the word means "peace", but with strings attached. It means "peace" as long as one subjugates himself to "Allah" - of course, according to the dictates of Islam. Not very peaceful, if you are a non-muslim, perhaps...

It should also be noted that the word Salaam (Salaami) can also mean safety or security from blemishes or defects, because one of the descriptors for G-d in Arabic is "As-Salaam" , which means: ‘May you not be void of goodness and blessing, and may you be safe from detestable and harmful things.' Notice that the word "peace" is no where in there. Of course, some could say that that definition fullfills exactly their personal definition of peace.

Here an islamic source to back that up:

The Meaning of Salaat and Salaam on the Prophet Shaikh 8216 Abdul-Muhsin Hamad Al- 8216 Abbaad

So, the word "Salaam" can mean a lot of things. Just as the Arabic word for "innocents" (برئ ) - "vuriah" - has a number of meanings and also comes with strings attached. And yes, I mean "innocents" ("innocent", plural) and not "innocence".

Here is a book about this topic, from the Christian perspective, I believe:

WORLD Is Islam a religion of peace Darrow Miller Oct. 25 2014

So, no, I don't think it's immoral to vote for a politician who goes around saying that Islam is a religion of Peace, because he is either ignorant and has no idea of the different meanings of the actual word for "peace", of he knows EXACTLY what it means and is trying to get a point across.

It's how we respond as a unified, freedom-loving people to Islamic terrorism that counts much more to me than the words, probably the campaign trail words, of a politician.

-Stat

I would say this one issue demonstrates how Obama and Bush are cut from the same fabric.
Okay, I thanked your post for the perspective. But I'll say I'm always weary of academic this is what the word meant centuries ago type stuff. All too often, context gets to stripped. I've seen academia make false claims about Bible meanings with regularity for instance. Granted, I do believe that what you say may true.

However, you're trying to apply their meaning of peace with our meaning of peace; and that's where your logic falls apart. Our politicians aren't calling Islam a religion of peace based upon technical caveats. They are making a case that the religion itself is not a problem and even a great value; and that is clearly false.

Actually, it has as much to do with the present as the past. Words have meaning and not understanding their meaning can lead to catastrophe.

Islam claims that "Salaam" means "peace" - only, it defines very differently than westerners would.

And the two definitions are not reconcilable in any culture that values democracy.

"Peace" with a knive around your neck is not "peace".

I said that our politicians who say it either say it out of ignorance or perhaps because they know EXACTLY what the deal is. There are some, prolly, who say it just to be PC. And that is a shame.

I think you and I agree more on this than you realize.

Which type of politician in this regard is Obama? Does he say Islam is a religion of peace out of ignorance or does he know Exactly what the deal is?

I don't know. But either way, on this point, he is wrong. Since he is not a Muslim, I doubt he would like the other definition of SALAAM.

Your point is face value one at best. I've read plenty of Quran passages. These so-called radicals are living what their book tells them to do. And this is why such a high percent of Muslims actually support all the suicide bombing and view Westerners as inherent enemies. The Quran is clear that the infidels (all non-muslims) are deserving of dieing at the hands of their so-called great allah. That is not a religion of peace, dude.

They consider westerners to be enemies because we keep attacking them.

You want to whine about 9/11, but the fact is, we've killed a hundred times more than that between our two wars in Iraq.

But it's not like you're marching down to a recruiting station to sign up.

Wrong. They consider infidels (non muslims) to be the enemy outright. The Quran is quite explicit about it. It's funny how you like to spout Bible passages and then pretend that the Quran doesn't say what it says. Well, not funny; it's standard hypocrisy from you.

Who follows the Bible to the letter?

Name a few.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

This thread inspired by the insight of former GBII adviser Elliot Abrams and the audacious rhetoric of Mr. Mohamad Mukadam.

Abrams states:

What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I think it's very important that the United States government shut-up about that question...

It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I was working, would say, 'Islam is a religion of peace...

For American government officials to be telling Muslims, 'I know real Islam' ... is ridiculous. It would be an outrage about Judaism and Christianity as well. ... For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool's errand...

The average American thinks this (that Islam is a religion of peace) is crap...

The only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don't tell me it's all wonderful...

Is there something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider to be terrible? And what's the debate within Islam?... That's a real description of a real problem... saying 'Islam is a religion of peace' isn't [realistic].

When asked about if Muslims kill apostates, this was Mr. Mohamad Mukadam's response:

"If it's an Islamic country, the Sharia is very clear. Apostasy is dealt with the death penalty."

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Source: Should Presidents Call Islam a Religion of Peace Two George W. Bush Officials Debate

Source: Mr. Mohamad Mukadam gives his take on death to apostates.

And for the sake of further clarity, George W Bush and Obama have both called Islam a religion of peace; and neither of them have reversed their positions on the matter.

It's immoral to claim a political candidate is more moral than their opposition and isn't just saying whatever gets them elected.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Islam can't be called the religion of peace because only 99% of Muslims refrain from terrorism?

lol

 

[Statistikhengst]

I would say this one issue demonstrates how Obama and Bush are cut from the same fabric.
Okay, I thanked your post for the perspective. But I'll say I'm always weary of academic this is what the word meant centuries ago type stuff. All too often, context gets to stripped. I've seen academia make false claims about Bible meanings with regularity for instance. Granted, I do believe that what you say may true.

However, you're trying to apply their meaning of peace with our meaning of peace; and that's where your logic falls apart. Our politicians aren't calling Islam a religion of peace based upon technical caveats. They are making a case that the religion itself is not a problem and even a great value; and that is clearly false.

Actually, it has as much to do with the present as the past. Words have meaning and not understanding their meaning can lead to catastrophe.

Islam claims that "Salaam" means "peace" - only, it defines very differently than westerners would.

And the two definitions are not reconcilable in any culture that values democracy.

"Peace" with a knive around your neck is not "peace".

I said that our politicians who say it either say it out of ignorance or perhaps because they know EXACTLY what the deal is. There are some, prolly, who say it just to be PC. And that is a shame.

I think you and I agree more on this than you realize.

Which type of politician in this regard is Obama? Does he say Islam is a religion of peace out of ignorance or does he know Exactly what the deal is?

I don't know. But either way, on this point, he is wrong. Since he is not a Muslim, I doubt he would like the other definition of SALAAM.

Your point is face value one at best. I've read plenty of Quran passages. These so-called radicals are living what their book tells them to do. And this is why such a high percent of Muslims actually support all the suicide bombing and view Westerners as inherent enemies. The Quran is clear that the infidels (all non-muslims) are deserving of dieing at the hands of their so-called great allah. That is not a religion of peace, dude.

They consider westerners to be enemies because we keep attacking them.

You want to whine about 9/11, but the fact is, we've killed a hundred times more than that between our two wars in Iraq.

But it's not like you're marching down to a recruiting station to sign up.

Wrong. They consider infidels (non muslims) to be the enemy outright. The Quran is quite explicit about it. It's funny how you like to spout Bible passages and then pretend that the Quran doesn't say what it says. Well, not funny; it's standard hypocrisy from you.

Who follows the Bible to the letter?

Name a few.

No one. Especially we Jews, for we decided that many of the punishments outlined in the Tanakh for sins comitted are just too barbaric. Otherwise, there would be a lot of people walking around missing eyes and teeth.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Islam can't be called the religion of peace because only 99% of Muslims refrain from terrorism?

lol

Peace, however, is more than just refraining from doing something, wouldn't you agree?

 

[DigitalDrifter]

It is the religion of peace, it's the definition of peace that's the problem.

 

[JoeB131]

The Bible is a book of peace and the quran is a book of war; a comparison would easily validate that reality.

"Christians" have killed a lot more people than Muslims have. Between the world wars and the genocides of native people in America and Australia, we done killed us a whole bunch for Jay-a-zus.

Nobody with a modicum of intelligence believes that muslims actions are justified by so-called western injustices. I am Ron Paulian in that I agree that we should get the fuck out of there. But if we left, they'd still be left with their bile caveman culture.

again, guy, when Bin Laden was killing Russians, he was a freedom fighter. When he was killing Americans, he was a terrorist. You give a crazy person a gun, you shouldn't be surprised when he turns it on you.