Debate Now Is Libertarianism UnAmerican?

[Sun Devil 92]

Libertarianism is theoretical and most people outgrow believing that it can be successfully implemented as they mature. Therefore it may not be un American because one has to be deemed an adult to be judged.

The same can be said for liberal and conservative values.

You only get them in their purity if you all believe the same way.

The libertarians are making strides in becoming more relevant.

Free State Project - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Free State Project (FSP) is a political migration, founded in 2001, to recruit at least 20,000 libertarians to move to a single low-population state (New Hampshire, selected in 2003) in order to make the state a stronghold for libertarian ideas.[2] The project seeks to overcome the historical ineffectiveness of limited-government activism which they believe was caused by the small number and diffuse population of libertarian activists across the 50 United States and around the world.

Participants sign a statement of intent declaring that they intend to move to New Hampshire within five years of the drive reaching 20,000 participants. This statement of intent is intended to function as a form of assurance contract. As of March 13th 2015, 16,523 people have signed this statement of intent[3] and 1,702 people are listed as "early movers" to New Hampshire on the FSP website, saying they have made their move prior to the 20,000-participant trigger.[4]

People aligned with the Free State Project have been elected to two-year terms in the 400-member New Hampshire House of Representatives since 2006.[5] Approximately a dozen Free Staters were elected to the New Hampshire House of Representatives in the 2012 election,[6] and about 18 in the 2014 election.

The Free State Project is a social movement generally based upon decentralized decision making. The group hosts various events, but most of FSP's activities depend upon volunteers, and no formal plan dictates to participants or movers what their actions should be in New Hampshire.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In December 2012, state representative Cynthia Chase (D-Keene) said "Free Staters are the single biggest threat the state is facing today."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Funny how those who like to think of themselves as open minded find those with different opinions to suddenly be a "threat".

Anyone who is gullible enough to believe that Libertarianism is benign hasn't studied history.

You could say the same thing about religion.

However, I don't put the stupidity of humans in the place of a viable ideology.

Are you claiming that Libertarianism is a "viable ideology"?

You bet.

Please don't take that to mean I am an adherent. However, there are parts of it that I do find useful to consider.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Too many liberts have too many definitions, so they cannot come to a logical definition overwhelmingly accepted by other libertarians. RKM's definition is one of so many that the boggle the mind.

Libertarian models have never worked for more than a few years in America, normally in the Wet, and failed within a few short years.

Many economic conservatives call their programs libertarian, when they are not.

I would suggest that you could same the same thing about liberals and conservatives.

Why the definitions are so important is beyond me.

A definition of liberalism does not mean a liberal is a stark adherent.

Most folks I know are mixture of all ideologies.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

What Mitchell fails to see is that without the "bail-out", the U.S., being the world's reserve currency at present, would have gone into a death spiral meaning world wide depression and very possible relegation to a backwater-status. Fiat currency, which i don't necessarily support, is the reason the U.S. is in the lead. That and we build the kewlest WMD on the taxpayer dime.

I have always enjoyed that fairy tale.

 

[Dot Com]

huh?

the libertarian fairytale?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

I do not see libertarians advocating a complete lack of government.

What they are advocating for is a 100% removal of all social services.

As provided by the government.

It does not mean they don't believe in helping each other out.

And so it gets strange.......

Why would anyone who wants to use the government to help others......feel the need to compell others to follow their path ?

If I needed help, I'd only want it from those who want to give it.

I'd starve before taking help from the government knowing full good and well some of that money came from people who would just as soon not provided it.

The usual progression in this argument is the road/school/police/fire dept.

I've never known libertarians who were against local government supplying those things.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does!

Platform Libertarian Party

Progressive Democrats are pushing for the government to be involved in virtually every aspect of your life from birth to death. You think that's any better?

Repubs are trying to control the actions of adults within the confines of their own homes and bedrooms? You think that's any better?

Libertarianism is just another term for a 3rd world nation where only the wealthy have access to healthcare, justice, quality living standards, etc, etc. Even Communism is better than Libertarianism.

Now this a claim that is very interesting.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And the above is why we smile at Sun Devil and pass him by,

 

[JakeStarkey]

"It is time to recognize that welfare cannot be reformed: it should be ended.

We should eliminate the entire social welfare system. This includes eliminating food stamps, subsidized housing, and all the rest."

Either the claim is theirs or it is a lie, RKM.

Same with medicines or health care.

 

[RKMBrown]

"It is time to recognize that welfare cannot be reformed: it should be ended.

We should eliminate the entire social welfare system. This includes eliminating food stamps, subsidized housing, and all the rest."

Either the claim is theirs or it is a lie, RKM.

Same with medicines or health care.

You are lying that's not what it says.

Fallacy of quoting out of context - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The practice of quoting out of context (sometimes referred to as "contextomy" and quote mining), is an informal fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.[1] Contextomies are stereotypically intentional, but may also occur accidentally if someone misinterprets the meaning and omits something essential to clarifying it, thinking it non-essential.

Arguments based on this fallacy typically take two forms:

1. As a straw man argument, which is frequently found in politics, it involves quoting an opponent out of context in order to misrepresent their position (typically to make it seem more simplistic or extreme) in order to make it easier to refute.
2. As an appeal to authority, it involves quoting an authority on the subject out of context, in order to misrepresent that authority as supporting some position.[2]

In either case, while quoting a person out of context can be done intentionally to advance an agenda or win an argument, it is also possible to remove essential context without the aim to mislead, through not perceiving a change in meaning or implication that may result from quoting what is perceived as the essential crux of a statement.

 

[JakeStarkey]

It is taken word for word from the posting?

 

[RKMBrown]

It is taken word for word from the posting?

FYI "it is" ... if you meant is it taken word for word from the posting... what posting?

The link was seriously edited by Deride to take it completely out of context. Then you reposted the same lie he posted.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The language is in order and says what it says in the original post.

Post the exact same paragraph and show us that it has been edited.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Can you give an objective definition of any of the terms you're asking us to discuss? You can try to put lipstick on this pig by pretending you want a "serious" discussion on the subject, but the simple fact is that you just want to insult libertarians. So I suppose going by your purposes we can say that yes, libertarianism is un-American, as long as we understand "un-American" to mean that which Derideo_Te doesn't like. But, frankly, that's a boring discussion and meaningless.

Well it's good that you've given up on the idea that this is a real discussion.

Patently obvious that you weren't interested in having one in the first place.

Have a nice day.

Incorrect. There's nothing I enjoy more than getting sucked into a discussion of the nuances of libertarianism. There are ample threads on this board that prove that. The idea that there could be a rational discussion over whether libertarianism measures up to some imaginary, subjective nonsense, however, makes no sense.[/QUOTE]

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Libertarianism is theoretical and most people outgrow believing that it can be successfully implemented as they mature. Therefore it may not be un American because one has to be deemed an adult to be judged.

The same can be said for liberal and conservative values.

You only get them in their purity if you all believe the same way.

The libertarians are making strides in becoming more relevant.

Free State Project - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Free State Project (FSP) is a political migration, founded in 2001, to recruit at least 20,000 libertarians to move to a single low-population state (New Hampshire, selected in 2003) in order to make the state a stronghold for libertarian ideas.[2] The project seeks to overcome the historical ineffectiveness of limited-government activism which they believe was caused by the small number and diffuse population of libertarian activists across the 50 United States and around the world.

Participants sign a statement of intent declaring that they intend to move to New Hampshire within five years of the drive reaching 20,000 participants. This statement of intent is intended to function as a form of assurance contract. As of March 13th 2015, 16,523 people have signed this statement of intent[3] and 1,702 people are listed as "early movers" to New Hampshire on the FSP website, saying they have made their move prior to the 20,000-participant trigger.[4]

People aligned with the Free State Project have been elected to two-year terms in the 400-member New Hampshire House of Representatives since 2006.[5] Approximately a dozen Free Staters were elected to the New Hampshire House of Representatives in the 2012 election,[6] and about 18 in the 2014 election.

The Free State Project is a social movement generally based upon decentralized decision making. The group hosts various events, but most of FSP's activities depend upon volunteers, and no formal plan dictates to participants or movers what their actions should be in New Hampshire.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In December 2012, state representative Cynthia Chase (D-Keene) said "Free Staters are the single biggest threat the state is facing today."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Funny how those who like to think of themselves as open minded find those with different opinions to suddenly be a "threat".

Anyone who is gullible enough to believe that Libertarianism is benign hasn't studied history.

You could say the same thing about religion.

However, I don't put the stupidity of humans in the place of a viable ideology.

Are you claiming that Libertarianism is a "viable ideology"?

You bet.

Please don't take that to mean I am an adherent. However, there are parts of it that I do find useful to consider.

So you support the complete removal of all forms of government social welfare programs?

Yes or no?

 

[Derideo_Te]

I do not see libertarians advocating a complete lack of government.

What they are advocating for is a 100% removal of all social services.

As provided by the government.

It does not mean they don't believe in helping each other out.

And so it gets strange.......

Why would anyone who wants to use the government to help others......feel the need to compell others to follow their path ?

If I needed help, I'd only want it from those who want to give it.

I'd starve before taking help from the government knowing full good and well some of that money came from people who would just as soon not provided it.

The usual progression in this argument is the road/school/police/fire dept.

I've never known libertarians who were against local government supplying those things.

So as a Libertarian you want to see an impoverished America on a par with a 3rd world nation where the less fortunate have no social welfare except what pittance comes via inadequate donations.

Thanks for being honest enough to admit that.

 

[Derideo_Te]

"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does!

Platform Libertarian Party

Progressive Democrats are pushing for the government to be involved in virtually every aspect of your life from birth to death. You think that's any better?

Repubs are trying to control the actions of adults within the confines of their own homes and bedrooms? You think that's any better?

Libertarianism is just another term for a 3rd world nation where only the wealthy have access to healthcare, justice, quality living standards, etc, etc. Even Communism is better than Libertarianism.

Now this a claim that is very interesting.

Yes, because communism is smart enough to understand that abject poverty breeds crime which ends up costing the state far more than social welfare programs.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The libertarians play straight into the hands of the communists.

 

[RKMBrown]

The language is in order and says what it says in the original post.

Post the exact same paragraph and show us that it has been edited.

It wasn't the paragraph that was edited out, it was the preceding and subsequent contextual paragraphs that were removed.

For example with the welfare issue the proposal of the libertarians was to move welfare to the private sector by introducing dollar for dollar tax breaks for welfare charity donations. IOW there would be no need for charity through government taxation, if we as a people had the choice of choosing how said charity was done via our own selections. For example, if my tax bill was 100k this year and 10k of it was being spent by the federal government on hand-out programs the libertarians are proposing I be allowed to give the government 90k I choose where the 10k is spent, such as on hand-up programs. This is a swap of welfare managed by the federal government for welfare managed by the people. You two took that "swap" and stated that libertarians want to end welfare. This is patently false. Libertarians want the liberty of having more bang for the welfare buck.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The libertarians play straight into the hands of the communists.

Yup!

There has never been a single successful private program that has ended poverty entirely.

There hasn't been a successful public sector program either but the government programs are a means to reduce the crime that is inevitable with poverty.

Eliminating all government social welfare programs means that there will be endemic poverty (just look at 3rd world nations) and rampant crime. The cost of dealing with that crime will exceed the cost of the social welfare programs. Libertarians put their ideology ahead of pragmatism which is why it will fail and America will be far worse off than it is now.

 

[RKMBrown]

The libertarians play straight into the hands of the communists.

Yup!

There has never been a single successful private program that has ended poverty entirely.

There hasn't been a successful public sector program either but the government programs are a means to reduce the crime that is inevitable with poverty.

Eliminating all government social welfare programs means that there will be endemic poverty (just look at 3rd world nations) and rampant crime. The cost of dealing with that crime will exceed the cost of the social welfare programs. Libertarians put their ideology ahead of pragmatism which is why it will fail and America will be far worse off than it is now.

Liar.