Zone1 is the church built upon Peter? HELL NO

[zaangalewa]

Jesus Christ was considered a criminal too according to the Romans and the Religious leaders.

But he was none. And anyway that doesn't make a crime against the holy spirit any less the crime to nail Jesus onto a self-made cross.

Did Jesus fight the Romans for the freedom of the Jews?

Yes and no. But we still fight for freedom - also for the freedom of the Jews.

You are sadly mistaken about what is really important.

John Smith is unimportant. Mahatma Gandhi is important.

The restoration of the Lord’s Church and all the necessary ordinances for exaltation in the highest degree of Glory is the purpose of God and the Church. God’s purpose is to bring to past the immortality and eternal life of mankind.

Eh? Do you understand what you say here?

Joseph Smith was successful

This I doubt. Not even our little fisher club with 1-1.5 billion members was really successful up to now. But sometimes gets someone to eat and to drink and rest who needs it from a Samaritan ET.

at doing this and that’s all that matters.

Not. That's totally unimportant. The cross shows very well that god needs no glory. God is "the glory" - that's what we remember because we need to be remembered.

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Ein Wallfahrtslied. Gedenke, Herr, an David und all seine Mühsal, der dem Herrn geschworen und gelobt hat dem Mächtigen Jakobs: Ich will nicht in das Zelt meines Hauses gehen noch mich aufs Lager meines Bettes legen, ich will meine Augen nicht schlafen lassen noch meine Augenlider schlummern, bis ich eine Stätte finde für den Herrn, eine Wohnung für den Mächtigen Jakobs. Siehe, wir hörten von ihr in Efrata, wir haben sie gefunden im Gefilde von Jaar. Wir wollen in seine Wohnung gehen und anbeten vor dem Schemel seiner Füße. Herr, mache dich auf zur Stätte deiner Ruhe, du und die Lade deiner Macht! Deine Priester lass sich kleiden mit Gerechtigkeit und deine Heiligen sich freuen. Weise nicht ab das Antlitz deines Gesalbten um deines Knechtes David willen! Der Herr hat David in Treue geschworen, davon wird er sich nicht wenden: Ich will auf deinen Thron setzen die Frucht deines Leibes. Werden deine Söhne meinen Bund halten und mein Zeugnis, das ich sie lehren werde, so sollen auch ihre Söhne auf deinem Thron sitzen ewiglich. Denn der Herr hat Zion erwählt, und es gefällt ihm, dort zu wohnen. »Dies ist die Stätte meiner Ruhe ewiglich; hier will ich wohnen, denn es gefällt mir wohl. Ich will ihre Speise segnen und ihren Armen Brot genug geben. Ihre Priester will ich mit Heil kleiden, und ihre Heiligen sollen fröhlich sein. Daselbst lasse ich aufgehen das Horn Davids, ich habe meinem Gesalbten eine Leuchte zugerichtet; seine Feinde will ich in Schande kleiden, aber über ihm soll blühen seine Krone.«
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A Song of Ascents. Remember, O Lord, in David’s favor, all the hardships he endured, how he swore to the Lord and vowed to the Mighty One of Jacob, “I will not enter my house or get into my bed, I will not give sleep to my eyes or slumber to my eyelids, until I find a place for the Lord, a dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob.” Behold, we heard of it in Ephrathah; we found it in the fields of Jaar. “Let us go to his dwelling place; let us worship at his footstool!” Arise, O Lord, and go to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Let your priests be clothed with righteousness, and let your saints shout for joy. For the sake of your servant David, do not turn away the face of your anointed one. The Lord swore to David a sure oath from which he will not turn back: “One of the sons of your body I will set on your throne. If your sons keep my covenant and my testimonies that I shall teach them, their sons also forever shall sit on your throne.” For the Lord has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his dwelling place: “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it. I will abundantly bless her provisions; I will satisfy her poor with bread. Her priests I will clothe with salvation, and her saints will shout for joy. There I will make a horn to sprout for David; I have prepared a lamp for my anointed. His enemies I will clothe with shame, but on him his crown will shine.”
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[hadit]

Nothing has been violated because it’s the restored Church by Jesus Christ and his apostles and prophets.

You might as well just throw everything into the trashcan, make something up and say, "This is the true Church". Come to think of it, that's what cult leaders do.

 

[hadit]

How else but through the Holy Spirit.

You're still making a claim that has no Scriptural backing, and yes, many Catholics DO pray to Mary like they should be praying ONLY to God. They ask her for things because they think Jesus will listen to her when He wouldn't listen to them. I heard that from an elderly Catholic woman in my Sunday School class, and I can guarantee she's not the only one. A co-worker of mine buried a statue of a saint upside down in his yard, hoping it would help him sell his house faster. They're praying to saints, asking them to grant favors and such.

Interesting to envision prayer rising to heaven as chaotic.

Answer these:

1. How many Catholics are there worldwide? Answer, about 1.3 billion. That's a lot of people.
2. How many Catholics are going to be asking Mary for something at any given time? Answer, hundreds of millions. Do you dispute that?
3. Are these prayers coordinated to occur at the same time and all be on the same subjects? Answer, of course not. Do you dispute that?

That means that, at any given moment, there will be millions of differing prayers being sent to Mary, all about different things. So, yes, prayer is absolutely chaotic when you remember that the body of Christ is constantly praying all around the world. Only God Himself could keep all those prayers straight and handle them all at the same time.

 

[hadit]

I take it is not something you would want to do? Join in prayer after you are at rest?

Whether I would or not, Scripture doesn't indicate that I would be able to. It is not even completely settled if the dead in Christ are awake and aware, or sleeping at rest until Christ returns.

I believe prayer is powerful, not chaotic; uplifting, not burdensome.

Yes, it is, and so are conversations with loved ones. Now, go to a concert in a stadium filled with tens of thousands of people and tell me what all of them are talking about as they wait for the concert to start. Individually, conversations are happening. Collectively, it's chaos.

How many prayers do you imagine are for peace? For healing? For needs? For forgiveness? Do you imagine millions of different categories, or a manageable amount?

There are over a billion Catholics worldwide. Tell me, at what hour and minute do all of you pray for peace, and do the Catholics in other time zones just stop praying to make sure you're heard? When do you coordinate to make sure you're all praying for the same needs at the same time? When do you coordinate to make sure you're all asking for forgiveness for the same sins at the same time? Since I know you don't, you have to admit that, at any given moment, millions of people are praying for many different things. No human is able to even hear and comprehend all those voices simultaneously, much less take action on all of them AT THE SAME TIME. Do you hope that your voice is special so she'll take notice of you instead the other hundreds of millions who are asking for her to take action in their individual lives?

Do you imagine that God's will in heaven is for his creation to avoid praying for/with others? You cannot imagine millions of voices praying for peace, with saints and angels joining in with mankind?

Be sure to let us all know what day and time we're supposed to pray, and what we're supposed to say and when. Face reality, no matter how you cut it, you're talking about millions of people sending up millions of prayers for different things all at the same time, around the clock. Or do you have a secret coordination memo going around stating that at this specific time, we're all going to pray for peace so Mary can hear us, and all who ask her to do other stuff have to shut up so they don't drown you out or confuse her? Does she get a break now and then to just enjoy being in the presence of Christ, or is she a full-time prayer switchboard? You're putting an awful lot of responsibility on the shoulders of one person who isn't even divine.

 

[hadit]

Jesus is especially fond of Mary. I'm not sure you guys have thought this through.

I'm sure that He is very fond of her. What does that mean to you?

 

[ding]

I'm sure that He is very fond of her. What does that mean to you?

That you - and others - are walking a thin line.

 

[hadit]

That you - and others - are walking a thin line.

What Scripture makes you believe that Mary has been given divine power to hear millions of prayers simultaneously AND the responsibility to take action on them? That's what I've never gotten a solid answer on. Yes, she was blessed by God and she raised Yeshua from childhood as the half-brother to her other children. I am absolutely certain that she is very, very special to Christ. That does not equate, however, to her being given all of this instead of just allowing her to bask in the presence of Christ. In fact, it would seem to me that it would be a greater blessing for her to be allowed that peace instead of tasking her with hearing daily the pain and anguish that people on earth are still suffering.

It's not an insult to Mary to ask these questions. It might seem like an insult to those who have elevated her to a position that Scripture doesn't indicate she has, but not to her.

 

[ding]

What Scripture makes you believe that Mary has been given divine power to hear millions of prayers simultaneously AND the responsibility to take action on them? That's what I've never gotten a solid answer on. Yes, she was blessed by God and she raised Yeshua from childhood as the half-brother to her other children. I am absolutely certain that she is very, very special to Christ. That does not equate, however, to her being given all of this instead of just allowing her to bask in the presence of Christ. In fact, it would seem to me that it would be a greater blessing for her to be allowed that peace instead of tasking her with hearing daily the pain and anguish that people on earth are still suffering.

It's not an insult to Mary to ask these questions. It might seem like an insult to those who have elevated her to a position that Scripture doesn't indicate she has, but not to her.

Catholics don't worship Mary. They venerate, adore, honor, adulate, etc. her. Do I need scripture to tell me it's ok to do that?

It's wrong to misstate what Catholics do and use Jesus' mother to do so for the express purpose of creating division.

But keep bringing it up instead of wiping the dust from your sandals and I'll keep following Titus 3:9-11. How's that for two scriptural references?

 

[Meriweather]

You're still making a claim that has no Scriptural backing, and yes, many Catholics DO pray to Mary like they should be praying ONLY to God. They ask her for things because they think Jesus will listen to her when He wouldn't listen to them. I heard that from an elderly Catholic woman in my Sunday School class, and I can guarantee she's not the only one. A co-worker of mine buried a statue of a saint upside down in his yard, hoping it would help him sell his house faster. They're praying to saints, asking them to grant favors and such.

Praying together has scriptural backing. Further, what is in the heart when anyone prays? Are you working under the assumption that no prayer to God has a selfish motive? "The heart is deceitful, who can understand it?"

That being the case, your argument should be that no one should pray at all. Praying together is no worse--and no better--than praying alone. Either can also be right and beautiful, when done with love.

When the house sold, was it an upside down statue, or the prayer? Prayers can still be answered despite a grin and a shake of the head at the desperation of man.

 

[Meriweather]

That means that, at any given moment, there will be millions of differing prayers being sent to Mary, all about different things. So, yes, prayer is absolutely chaotic when you remember that the body of Christ is constantly praying all around the world. Only God Himself could keep all those prayers straight and handle them all at the same time.

You see prayer as chaotic, picturing it as how requests are made in the physical world. Heaven is not a physical world, and true prayers is from a loving heart--not from the mouth as it is here on earth. Imagining a spiritual scene being the same as a physical scene gets one nowhere.

I believe in the power of prayer. I believe prayer is uplifting. I see no chaos in it, so I leave that scenario those who do imagine prayer as chaotic.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, it is, and so are conversations with loved ones. Now, go to a concert in a stadium filled with tens of thousands of people and tell me what all of them are talking about as they wait for the concert to start. Individually, conversations are happening. Collectively, it's chaos.

Good description of the physical world. What scriptural backing do you have that it is exactly the same in the spiritual world?

 

[Meriweather]

Be sure to let us all know what day and time we're supposed to pray, and what we're supposed to say and when. Face reality, no matter how you cut it, you're talking about millions of people sending up millions of prayers for different things all at the same time, around the clock. Or do you have a secret coordination memo going around stating that at this specific time, we're all going to pray for peace so Mary can hear us, and all who ask her to do other stuff have to shut up so they don't drown you out or confuse her? Does she get a break now and then to just enjoy being in the presence of Christ, or is she a full-time prayer switchboard? You're putting an awful lot of responsibility on the shoulders of one person who isn't even divine.

You are imagining the spiritual world/existence is precisely the same as the physical world.

 

[Meriweather]

It's not an insult to Mary to ask these questions. It might seem like an insult to those who have elevated her to a position that Scripture doesn't indicate she has, but not to her.

Do you believe in the Body of Christ? Do you believe Mary, like all who believe, is a member of the Body of Christ?

It seems people are not working to "promote" her but some are arguing she should be demoted.

 

[hadit]

Catholics don't worship Mary. They venerate, adore, honor, adulate, etc. her. Do I need scripture to tell me it's ok to do that?

You need Scripture to tell you that she is divine and can not only hear but do something about millions of prayers being offered on a daily basis. Love, honor, adore, absolutely. She obeyed God and was blessed to raise Yeshua. Pray to her, no.

It's wrong to misstate what Catholics do and use Jesus' mother to do so for the express purpose of creating division.

It sure is, and it's a good thing I'm not doing that. I'm having a discussion with a Catholic about how far they push adoration of Mary.

But keep bringing it up instead of wiping the dust from your sandals and I'll keep following Titus 3:9-11. How's that for two scriptural references?

Show me from the Scriptures where I'm a heretic. Why is it improper for fellow Christians to challenge each other's understanding of the Scriptures?

 

[hadit]

Praying together has scriptural backing. Further, what is in the heart when anyone prays? Are you working under the assumption that no prayer to God has a selfish motive? "The heart is deceitful, who can understand it?"

You seem to be hung up on the idea that somehow I don't believe in corporate prayer, DESPITE repeated statements from me about it.

That being the case, your argument should be that no one should pray at all. Praying together is no worse--and no better--than praying alone. Either can also be right and beautiful, when done with love.

Of course, we here on earth pray together. We're supposed to. The dead, however, are not necessarily listening. That's the point, and it's not found in Scripture that they are.

When the house sold, was it an upside down statue, or the prayer? Prayers can still be answered despite a grin and a shake of the head at the desperation of man.

When you make a petition to a saint instead of to God, don't expect God to honor it. He doesn't like others being placed before Him.

 

[hadit]

You see prayer as chaotic, picturing it as how requests are made in the physical world. Heaven is not a physical world, and true prayers is from a loving heart--not from the mouth as it is here on earth. Imagining a spiritual scene being the same as a physical scene gets one nowhere.

I believe in the power of prayer. I believe prayer is uplifting. I see no chaos in it, so I leave that scenario those who do imagine prayer as chaotic.

It sounds like you're saying that, somehow without it even being stated in Scripture, God takes the chaotic voices of millions of people all requesting different things at the same time and produces something a human being can process. Is that what you're saying? AND, if He is doing that, why would He hand them off to her instead of just taking care of them Himself?

 

[hadit]

Good description of the physical world. What scriptural backing do you have that it is exactly the same in the spiritual world?

Absolutely none, and I also do not see anywhere in Scripture that states that God gives supernatural abilities to those with Him. You're hypothesizing something that's not in Scripture.

 

[hadit]

Do you believe in the Body of Christ? Do you believe Mary, like all who believe, is a member of the Body of Christ?

It seems people are not working to "promote" her but some are arguing she should be demoted.

She is a member of the Body, sure. No one is saying otherwise. What I am questioning, however, is why do you believe she has been given supernatural abilities and responsibilities when it's not in Scripture?

 

[Cougarbear]

But he was none. And anyway that doesn't make a crime against the holy spirit any less the crime to nail Jesus onto a self-made cross.



Yes and no. But we still fight for freedom - also for the freedom of the Jews.



John Smith is unimportant. Mahatma Gandhi is important.



Eh? Do you understand what you say here?



This I doubt. Not even our little fisher club with 1-1.5 billion members was really successful up to now. But sometimes gets someone to eat and to drink and rest who needs it from a Samaritan ET.



Not. That's totally unimportant. The cross shows very well that god needs no glory. God is "the glory" - that's what we remember because we need to be remembered.

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Ein Wallfahrtslied. Gedenke, Herr, an David und all seine Mühsal, der dem Herrn geschworen und gelobt hat dem Mächtigen Jakobs: Ich will nicht in das Zelt meines Hauses gehen noch mich aufs Lager meines Bettes legen, ich will meine Augen nicht schlafen lassen noch meine Augenlider schlummern, bis ich eine Stätte finde für den Herrn, eine Wohnung für den Mächtigen Jakobs. Siehe, wir hörten von ihr in Efrata, wir haben sie gefunden im Gefilde von Jaar. Wir wollen in seine Wohnung gehen und anbeten vor dem Schemel seiner Füße. Herr, mache dich auf zur Stätte deiner Ruhe, du und die Lade deiner Macht! Deine Priester lass sich kleiden mit Gerechtigkeit und deine Heiligen sich freuen. Weise nicht ab das Antlitz deines Gesalbten um deines Knechtes David willen! Der Herr hat David in Treue geschworen, davon wird er sich nicht wenden: Ich will auf deinen Thron setzen die Frucht deines Leibes. Werden deine Söhne meinen Bund halten und mein Zeugnis, das ich sie lehren werde, so sollen auch ihre Söhne auf deinem Thron sitzen ewiglich. Denn der Herr hat Zion erwählt, und es gefällt ihm, dort zu wohnen. »Dies ist die Stätte meiner Ruhe ewiglich; hier will ich wohnen, denn es gefällt mir wohl. Ich will ihre Speise segnen und ihren Armen Brot genug geben. Ihre Priester will ich mit Heil kleiden, und ihre Heiligen sollen fröhlich sein. Daselbst lasse ich aufgehen das Horn Davids, ich habe meinem Gesalbten eine Leuchte zugerichtet; seine Feinde will ich in Schande kleiden, aber über ihm soll blühen seine Krone.«
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A Song of Ascents. Remember, O Lord, in David’s favor, all the hardships he endured, how he swore to the Lord and vowed to the Mighty One of Jacob, “I will not enter my house or get into my bed, I will not give sleep to my eyes or slumber to my eyelids, until I find a place for the Lord, a dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob.” Behold, we heard of it in Ephrathah; we found it in the fields of Jaar. “Let us go to his dwelling place; let us worship at his footstool!” Arise, O Lord, and go to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Let your priests be clothed with righteousness, and let your saints shout for joy. For the sake of your servant David, do not turn away the face of your anointed one. The Lord swore to David a sure oath from which he will not turn back: “One of the sons of your body I will set on your throne. If your sons keep my covenant and my testimonies that I shall teach them, their sons also forever shall sit on your throne.” For the Lord has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his dwelling place: “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it. I will abundantly bless her provisions; I will satisfy her poor with bread. Her priests I will clothe with salvation, and her saints will shout for joy. There I will make a horn to sprout for David; I have prepared a lamp for my anointed. His enemies I will clothe with shame, but on him his crown will shine.”
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See, all you have are opinions with no basis in facts. Without Joseph Smith there is no Book of Mormon and no restored church because your Catholic Church apostatized and changed the doctrines and ordinances of Jesus Christ. Your Popes and priests are nothing more than cilld molester rapists or shelter those who commit these crimes of murder like attacks on young boys. Some of your popes even murdered to ascend to their thrones of power. Joseph did no such thing.

 

[Cougarbear]

You might as well just throw everything into the trashcan, make something up and say, "This is the true Church". Come to think of it, that's what cult leaders do.

in the beginning, the Church was a cult. But, it grew and is much more respected and even accepted. Especially by those who find them in some form of physical harm lake tsunamis, tornadoes, earthquakes, hurricanes…. Then we are welcomed.