Is Your God Limited to The God of Abraham?

[RandomVariable]

Given all the posts recently with similar thoughts this post is probably redundant but I thought is out so might as well type it out.

A parable to continue the brick parable:
So there is the Flying Brick religion and the Swimming Brick religion. Well a half brick get jealous of the actual brick and decides to do all the damage it can to the actual brick. So the half brick goes out and finds just the right person and says it has a message from the actual brick and that all the other people are being fooled into following the Flying Brick and the Swimming Brick. So the half brick gives a whole bunch of information not for the benefit of the followers of the new religion, The Supreme Brick Religion, but to destroy that which the actual brick has created. The half brick knows that if people were to look too closely at who the half brick really is they would see that it was not the actual brick so the half brick makes it a specific point to place as much focus as possible on the messenger rather than the message to outsiders. And while the half brick can not directly create and destroy it can influence people and so the half brick will get its followers out of the way of airstrikes when it can and get people through airport security when it can but it knows it has rely on its followers to do the actual destruction of people and material objects.


Well hopefully that wraps up my brick parables. Hopefully no one gets upset with these parables as they are completely unrelated to anything happening today. If it does strike too close to the bone for some there might just be some truth in it.

Ok first of all the brick analogy is starting to get tiresome. Beyond that, you are making a false comparison because the 'half-brick' represents a totally different entity not a difference in interpretation or experience regarding the same entity. Islam does not worship a different God, they simply have different beliefs about God and relate to Him differently. Nowhere in the Quran does it support the idea of engaging in the indiscriminate slaughter of innocents regardless of their religious identity. Like the Bible, it endorses killing for three general reasons: 1) to protect yourself or other individuals from an attack, 2) to protect your property or land from an attack, 3) when someone is trying to take you away from God or get you to worship a different God. Other than that, Islam forbids killing. These are the same principles in the Bible.

Now neither of us would try to make the argument that the Bible supported the Spanish Inquisition. I am assuming that, like me, you would argue that the Spanish Inquisition was the result of people using Christianity in a manner that the Bible does not support in order to achieve a political or social goal. The same is true of terrorists and Islamic extremists. Like the Inquisition, it was not God who said 'go torture and kill a bunch of Jews'. It was man who twisted scripture and corrupted His word in the Bible. Similarly, it is not God who is telling ISIS to behead a bunch of Christians and non-Muslims. It is man who is twisting scripture and corrupting His word in the Quran.

These people, ISIS and their ilk, are doing the same thing you are doing in principle, although they are causing it to manifest itself in a far more violent and horrendous manner. They are stuffing God in a box and claiming that 'their way is the only way to experience God'. They are being every bit as selfish and greedy with God as you are. The difference is, and granted it's a big difference, is that their application results in war, slaughter, and bloodshed, while yours results in spiritual and social intolerance and rendering God valueless and inaccessible to anyone but yourself. However, both effectively deny others the ability to have a personal and individual 'God experience', due to the insistence that the experience be on your, and their, terms. When one cannot experience God on their own terms, they have no application for God in their lives. This is because God cannot grow the faith inside them if that faith belongs to someone else and is based on anther person's spiritual identity. Thus, God becomes valueless to them.

I am going to do this point by point. Otherwise is becomes a pick and choose of points and meaningless.

Do you believe the actual brick can have any abominations? (And it is a parable, not an analogy. You brought up islam, not me. And whatever in the world gave you than idea anyway? )

I think there are very few things we can do that would actually offend God. Most of them would have to do with interfering with another's path to God or relationship with Him, or intentionally corrupting God's word, through various forms of scripture, in order to manipulate society for political or independent gain. So I believe that God sees ISIS as an abomination because they do both. I think God sees Westboro Baptist Church as an abomination because they do both as well. I think God sees a murderer as an abomination because by killing another they interfere with a person's spiritual development with God.

Things that are directed inward I don't think God is offended by, but that's just my personal view. For example, if someone decided they are atheist, I don't think God gets all irate. I think He just says 'oh you are not interested in this? Ok, no problem. Go do whatever you wish then. Good luck. I hope it works out for you and I am here if you change your mind.' But that situation represents a person choosing for themselves and not having a theology thrust upon them when they are unwilling to receive it. As long as we have freely chosen as individuals and do no harm to others, physically or spiritually, I really don't think God cares what manner we choose to find communion with Him.

So lets take an example, and I am going to pull Goddess_Ashtara in here for a second. I tagged her because I don't like referring to people in these kinds of posts without them knowing it. So I don't know exactly what GA believes. From what I gather it is not Judeo-Christian but she has some kind of spiritual belief that is apparently working for her. You and I would probably consider her a pagan. Whatever...the specific definition isn't important. What is important is that she has application in her life for her beliefs, she feels a sense of physical and spiritual connection with the universe around her, and thus there is value to some sort of spiritual identity within her. Now it's different than what you and I have chosen in our relationship with God. We have chosen a Christian path and so we relate to God primarily through Jesus and the teachings of the apostles. That is what is working for us.

But you and I look at GA and say "oh no, no, no...you are doing this all wrong,' because apparently we know what she needs better than she does. 'Let us tell you about Jesus and the right path to God.' we say to her. We do this lovingly and with no foul intent, but we essentially thrust our belief system onto her. So she goes with it and finds that she cannot relate to it for whatever reason. Therefore, it ceases to have application in her life. Because it has no application, her spiritual growth becomes stunted, and God becomes valueless to her.

Now, I tend to think that God isn't going to be very happy with the two of us. I tend to think God is going to look at us and say 'what the fuck, man?!?! GA and I had a good thing going. We were communicating, she was growing spiritually, she and I had a relationship that was working until you two came and fucked it all up.' Ever been in a relationship with someone and that person's friends hated you and destroyed the relationship? Pissed you off, didn't it? Same concept.

So what we should do, in my opinion, is celebrate the fact that GA has found a path to God, even though it is not our path. We should praise the Lord that she has found a way to connect with God which is personal, meaningful, and has the application and value in her life that allows God to grow her spiritual communion with Him. We may not understand it, but it is not ours to understand. We may not relate to her relationship with God, but it is not our relationship to have to relate to. Who are we to interfere or define for another the manner through which they must or cannot find God?

Ok, let me try this. So you are saying that what the spirit in the sky wants is maximum spirituality as long as it is from a person who lives within a very liberal definition of right and wrong? Am I good so far?

This begs many questions but let me start with this one: Why does this spirit in the sky care in the least whether or not anyone has any spirituality?

 

[BluePhantom]

Ok, let me try this. So you are saying that what the spirit in the sky wants is maximum spirituality as long as it is from a person who lives within a very liberal definition of right and wrong? Am I good so far?

No, not exactly. If someone has a very conservative definition of right and wrong that's perfectly fine. It's what works for the individual. My wife is a very conservative, evangelical Christian. She and I often disagree on points of religion. But her relationship with God works for her and my relationship with Him works for me. We have discussions about God and how we each relate to Him. Our goal is to help each other see different points that we may not have considered before, but we don't try to convince each other to think one way or the other or to alter our relationship with God to better fit the other's point of view. Sometimes I disagree with her position very strongly, but she is good where she is and is harming no one. She treats people with love and respect (even those with whom she passionately disagrees) so I have no right to interject.

This begs many questions but let me start with this one: Why does this spirit in the sky care in the least whether or not anyone has any spirituality?

Does He? As I mentioned a couple times prior, I tend to think that if someone doesn't want to have a relationship with Him, He is just fine with that. He gave us free choice. What kind of free choice is it that says 'choose whatever you wish, but if you choose something other than what I tell you, there will be hell to pay'. Doesn't sound very free to me.

Now, I actually think He does care but only slightly and for far different reasons that are based upon my personal philosophy and how I relate to God, but it would take a very long time to explain it all. The very, very short version is that He is the only game in town so if one interacts with the universe in any way, they are having a relationship with God whether they wish to acknowledge it or not. Thus, there is no way to avoid whatever God's master plan happens to be. It is just a question of whether one wishes to recognize it or not.

So for me, it's not a question about whether one has a sense of spirituality. As Christians, we believe all people have a spirit, thus one cannot avoid some degree of spirituality. It's whether they want to admit they have a sense of spirituality, whether or not they make the choice to allow God to make it an active force in their life, and what form it will take and evolve into.

 

[TrinityPower]

Every person is as individual as their fingerprint so why would their relationship with God be all the same? I will add my own analogy...We are all are locks with different combos, key patterns and punch codes. God has the pass key for each one. God relates to each person on their level and pace just as a parent does so with each child they have.The best way to think about God is as a parent. Since becoming a parent I understand the thoughts of God much better. How would I as a parent deal with this situation were it my child? Put God in that parental role and many things become very clear

 

[Avatar4321]

How do you go beyond all knowing and all powerful?

Seems to me that know all and being able to do all is the limit any God could have.

But of course I'm a fallen creature and I'm sure there are countless things in the universe I haven't even dreamed of.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob isn't at all limited.

 

[Avatar4321]

Also, why Him?

Because He loves us.

Seek Him out, get to know Him. I did. And the moment I felt the power, glory, and love of His Spirit how could I not love Him back?

 

[Political Junky]

​

The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an?

Why? ​

They're all 3 the God of Abraham.

 

[AVG-JOE]

So what we should do, in my opinion, is celebrate the fact that GA has found a path to God, even though it is not our path. We should praise the Lord that she has found a way to connect with God which is personal, meaningful, and has the application and value in her life that allows God to grow her spiritual communion with Him. We may not understand it, but it is not ours to understand. We may not relate to her relationship with God, but it is not our relationship to have to relate to. Who are we to interfere or define for another the manner through which they must or cannot find God?

Bury The God of Abraham with Abraham and celebrate The God of (insert your name here).

If reading about the relationship that God had with Abe, or Mohammad or Paul or any other character from history helps you to relate to God, great... but take ownership of your relationship and remember that Abe related to God while living on a world very different from the one that we share in our here and now.

 

[AVG-JOE]

If it is not for the understanding of God what practical use of the Bible could there possibly be?

Understanding Abraham and other historic characters, and how they related God in the times and places in which they lived.

There's nothing wrong with reading The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an as literature, but relating to your own God in your own way in your own here and now will free your soul.

 

[RandomVariable]

​

The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an?

Why? ​

They're all 3 the God of Abraham.

That is like saying the movie Independence Day is like the movie E.T. (or any two more alien movies) because both about aliens. Or if you wanted to be more specific you could say two movies about Martians.

 

[RandomVariable]

For what it is worth. A little over a year ago, about the time of one of four ago, I received two signs which I consider the opening to this path God has shown me. One was Ezeikel 37. The other was a little toast of how all religions could live together, over some Easter dinner if I remember correctly. (Which I do.) I had found these two signs to be oddly contradictory but put them in the back of my mind. The beginning of last week something occurred to me. I do not know why it did not occur to me earlier with all I have heard of the matter. It struck me that these two signs are not contradictory at all. For what it is worth.

 

[TrinityPower]

For what it is worth. A little over a year ago, about the time of one of four ago, I received two signs which I consider the opening to this path God has shown me. One was Ezeikel 37. The other was a little toast of how all religions could live together, over some Easter dinner if I remember correctly. (Which I do.) I had found these two signs to be oddly contradictory but put them in the back of my mind. The beginning of last week something occurred to me. I do not know why it did not occur to me earlier with all I have heard of the matter. It struck me that these two signs are not contradictory at all. For what it is worth.

??? Was that deliberate? If I am understanding you correctly on this thread that you are not familiar with the story of Abram?

 

[BluePhantom]

For what it is worth. A little over a year ago, about the time of one of four ago, I received two signs which I consider the opening to this path God has shown me. One was Ezeikel 37. The other was a little toast of how all religions could live together, over some Easter dinner if I remember correctly. (Which I do.) I had found these two signs to be oddly contradictory but put them in the back of my mind. The beginning of last week something occurred to me. I do not know why it did not occur to me earlier with all I have heard of the matter. It struck me that these two signs are not contradictory at all. For what it is worth.

That's great. Perhaps it did not occur to you before because God didn't reveal the connection to you until recently. Who knows? The cool thing is finding new learning and the more one opens themselves up and allows God to grow within them, the more they will learn. Through learning, we connect with God. When I was teaching, I did not employ one set method in my classroom. I recognized that different people learn different ways and so I studied my students in order to identify how they learned best. Then I adjusted my teaching methodology to them so that they could understand and learn in the manner they were suited for. I did not demand that they adjust to me; I adjusted to them. I think all the different religions we see in the world is very similar.

 

[RandomVariable]

For what it is worth. A little over a year ago, about the time of one of four ago, I received two signs which I consider the opening to this path God has shown me. One was Ezeikel 37. The other was a little toast of how all religions could live together, over some Easter dinner if I remember correctly. (Which I do.) I had found these two signs to be oddly contradictory but put them in the back of my mind. The beginning of last week something occurred to me. I do not know why it did not occur to me earlier with all I have heard of the matter. It struck me that these two signs are not contradictory at all. For what it is worth.

That's great. Perhaps it did not occur to you before because God didn't reveal the connection to you until recently. Who knows? The cool thing is finding new learning and the more one opens themselves up and allows God to grow within them, the more they will learn. Through learning, we connect with God. When I was teaching, I did not employ one set method in my classroom. I recognized that different people learn different ways and so I studied my students in order to identify how they learned best. Then I adjusted my teaching methodology to them so that they could understand and learn in the manner they were suited for. I did not demand that they adjust to me; I adjusted to them. I think all the different religions we see in the world is very similar.

But you did not change what you thought, just how you taught it.

 

[RandomVariable]

For what it is worth. A little over a year ago, about the time of one of four ago, I received two signs which I consider the opening to this path God has shown me. One was Ezeikel 37. The other was a little toast of how all religions could live together, over some Easter dinner if I remember correctly. (Which I do.) I had found these two signs to be oddly contradictory but put them in the back of my mind. The beginning of last week something occurred to me. I do not know why it did not occur to me earlier with all I have heard of the matter. It struck me that these two signs are not contradictory at all. For what it is worth.

??? Was that deliberate? If I am understanding you correctly on this thread that you are not familiar with the story of Abram?

I am familiar with the narrative of Abram. I did I give the impression I was not in some way?

Was what deliberate?

I was just about clueless about religion fifteen months ago. Does that help?

 

[TrinityPower]

If you know the story of Abraham then why do you have such trouble with the fact that Muslim and Judaism branch from Abraham?

 

[RandomVariable]

If you know the story of Abraham then why do you have such trouble with the fact that Muslim and Judaism branch from Abraham?

For one God told me it is not so. That seems not compelling for some around here so I will also say that islam created a god that bears no resemblance whatsoever to the God described in the Old Testament of Abraham. islam wrote their own book from the ground up. They took what they choose to from other sources but they did write it to serve the purposes of their lesser deity. I can claim to be a descendent of the Queen of England. That does not make me a descendant of the Queen of England and most people will not believe me just for saying so. Why is it that people so automatically give islam a pass on saying they are people of the God of Abraham? They are most clearly not.

 

[TrinityPower]

If you know the story of Abraham then why do you have such trouble with the fact that Muslim and Judaism branch from Abraham?

For one God told me it is not so. That seems not compelling for some around here so I will also say that islam created a god that bears no resemblance whatsoever to the God described in the Old Testament of Abraham. islam wrote their own book from the ground up. They took what they choose to from other sources but they did write it to serve the purposes of their lesser deity. I can claim to be a descendent of the Queen of England. That does not make me a descendant of the Queen of England and most people will not believe me just for saying so. Why is it that people so automatically give islam a pass on saying they are people of the God of Abraham? They are most clearly not.

So by your own admission you are following your own teaching apart from what the bible you feel everyone should be following in unison says? Seriously....you should read beyond that into the books of Judges, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles. There is really no way to point out things given you have by your own admission rejected the holy Word right in front of your face. It is stated right there where the split occurred. If you reject what is plainly stated by the image of God you believe in then it is your problem for going astray as you are condemning everyone else. The whole fight in the middle east is about who the land belongs to according to the true heir of Abraham!

 

[RandomVariable]

If you know the story of Abraham then why do you have such trouble with the fact that Muslim and Judaism branch from Abraham?

For one God told me it is not so. That seems not compelling for some around here so I will also say that islam created a god that bears no resemblance whatsoever to the God described in the Old Testament of Abraham. islam wrote their own book from the ground up. They took what they choose to from other sources but they did write it to serve the purposes of their lesser deity. I can claim to be a descendent of the Queen of England. That does not make me a descendant of the Queen of England and most people will not believe me just for saying so. Why is it that people so automatically give islam a pass on saying they are people of the God of Abraham? They are most clearly not.

So by your own admission you are following your own teaching apart from what the bible you feel everyone should be following in unison says? Seriously....you should read beyond that into the books of Judges, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles. There is really no way to point out things given you have by your own admission rejected the holy Word right in front of your face. It is stated right there where the split occurred. If you reject what is plainly stated by the image of God you believe in then it is your problem for going astray as you are condemning everyone else. The whole fight in the middle east is about who the land belongs to according to the true heir of Abraham!

Why are you asking if I have read other books of the Bible when the split you are referring to happened in Genesis? And again, one can claim any lineage they like. That does not make it so.

 

[BluePhantom]

For what it is worth. A little over a year ago, about the time of one of four ago, I received two signs which I consider the opening to this path God has shown me. One was Ezeikel 37. The other was a little toast of how all religions could live together, over some Easter dinner if I remember correctly. (Which I do.) I had found these two signs to be oddly contradictory but put them in the back of my mind. The beginning of last week something occurred to me. I do not know why it did not occur to me earlier with all I have heard of the matter. It struck me that these two signs are not contradictory at all. For what it is worth.

That's great. Perhaps it did not occur to you before because God didn't reveal the connection to you until recently. Who knows? The cool thing is finding new learning and the more one opens themselves up and allows God to grow within them, the more they will learn. Through learning, we connect with God. When I was teaching, I did not employ one set method in my classroom. I recognized that different people learn different ways and so I studied my students in order to identify how they learned best. Then I adjusted my teaching methodology to them so that they could understand and learn in the manner they were suited for. I did not demand that they adjust to me; I adjusted to them. I think all the different religions we see in the world is very similar.

But you did not change what you thought, just how you taught it.

The subject matter was such that I offered them all possibilities and allowed my students to think for themselves and reach their own conclusions. My students were not graded on what their position was. They were graded on how well they supported their position.

 

[BluePhantom]

If you know the story of Abraham then why do you have such trouble with the fact that Muslim and Judaism branch from Abraham?

For one God told me it is not so. That seems not compelling for some around here so I will also say that islam created a god that bears no resemblance whatsoever to the God described in the Old Testament of Abraham. islam wrote their own book from the ground up. They took what they choose to from other sources but they did write it to serve the purposes of their lesser deity. I can claim to be a descendent of the Queen of England. That does not make me a descendant of the Queen of England and most people will not believe me just for saying so. Why is it that people so automatically give islam a pass on saying they are people of the God of Abraham? They are most clearly not.

So by your own admission you are following your own teaching apart from what the bible you feel everyone should be following in unison says? Seriously....you should read beyond that into the books of Judges, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles. There is really no way to point out things given you have by your own admission rejected the holy Word right in front of your face. It is stated right there where the split occurred. If you reject what is plainly stated by the image of God you believe in then it is your problem for going astray as you are condemning everyone else. The whole fight in the middle east is about who the land belongs to according to the true heir of Abraham!

Why are you asking if I have read other books of the Bible when the split you are referring to happened in Genesis? And again, one can claim any lineage they like. That does not make it so.

Don't you think the Muslims say the exact same thing about the Jews?