Islam forbids

[Liability]

I was half-inclined to respond to you a bit more civilly, but since you are a bit of a dope and have your own issues of incivility, I guess it will save time to just be blunt.

You know, you're right in that I could have replied a bit more politely. My apologies; I tend to be a sarcastic wench sometimes. I hope there is no permanant damage? * * * *

I did not read the rest of your post after reading that opening paragraph. The reason?

I do not care to engage you any further. And I do not mean that in a derogatory way.

What I mean is: I have decided not to discuss this topic (Islam) in such detail any further. I am not particularly religious. My limited religious beliefs are what they are, and I see no reason to seek to impose my views on you. I am not open to having anybody try to impose Islam on me, either.

I have been rude in discussing Islam, in fact. Not just to you, but to Kalam and Sunni Man and perhaps to many other Muslims as well. Although I do harbor quite negative views about Islam and the Qur'an, I confess that there is not a whole lot of valid purpose served in venting about it. I noted it. I stand by my low opinion of Islam. But it is a bit unseemly (of me) to be spewing it at you or at other believers of that faith.

So, for the future, although I reserve my right to comment about it as the discussion might warrant, I have resolved not to go out of my way to be so offensive in expressing that view of Islam.

My apologies to you, to Sunni Man, to Kalam and to any other Muslims whom I have needlessly offended in my unnecessarily overt way. I do not apologize for my low opinion of Islam or even for stating that I have a low opinion of Islam. But I do apologize for spending too much time on the topic -- and rather pointlessly at that. The insults I have offered became gratuitous. That was uncool. Mea culpa.

 

[BigBarry]

Islam is a more racist religion that even judaism, now THAT's bad!
We should carpet bomb the middle east with explosive suicide belts so that within a few months, everyone would be blown up. But where's Allah going to get all the virgins? I didn't know that the middle east even had any!

 

[logical4u]

I see no "filth" in the verses you posted.

These are all just civil and criminal laws that are enforced in some Islamic countries.


In Europe there is no death penalty.

They see Americans as "filth" for executing convicted murderers.


In other words, you might not agree with other countries criminal laws.

But that doesn't make it wrong or "filth", as you put it.

Interestingeflection. Focus on just one point and pretend that's all that had been said.

You Izzy's love to do that kind of transparent crap.

It is the stinking Qur'an that ends up getting rape victims imprisoned for the audacity of accusing the bastards who raped them. Filth.

It is the Qur'an that tells Izzys to subjugate the unbelievers until submission. Filth.

And, as I noted, these are but tip of the iceberg examples.

The Qur'an is a filthy nightmare of 7th Century barbarism.

I find it so sad when people fall prey to propaganda. There's really no excuse for ignorance in this day and age where there are media outlets that are not sponsor funded and the vastness of internet.

If you bothered to read some books on the subject, Liability, you would know that rape victims being imprisoned has more to do with tribal codes. Not Islam.

The Quran talks about defense. I suppose you stopped reading before you got to the part where it says to stop fighting when they stop fighting you.

I know you haven't actually read the Quran from cover to cover as I have. No, you just get little snippets from websites that pander to this type of misinformation.

You do realize how easy it is to totally misrepresent what is being said by only taking a small piece of the whole...? They do it to celebrities and politicians all the time.

If you have a brain.....use it.

If you have read the quran, have you read the Bible? Have you noted the conflicts between the two books? Do you realize Mohammed claims to have the same source as the One in the Bible? Yet, the quran is full of conflicting statements with the Bible and its prophets.
Islam claims it is educated, yet it does almost nothing to improve the standard of living for any of its followers. It destroys artifacts that demonstrate its falsehoods. It will not consider any books, not of islam origins. How can it claim it is a religion of peace when it gives islam enemies no opportunity to repent?

 

[logical4u]

I was half-inclined to respond to you a bit more civilly,

...


That's why I prefer to make my own interpetation.

I find quite a bit of beauty reading the Quran. And if I need help understanding something, I look it up and pick the interpetation that I like the most. The one that is most favorable to my understanding.

Most (literate) Muslims will tell you that there is not an example of Islamic society on earth at this present time. So if Muslims are saying that the faith is not being practiced properly...why do you think it is?

Maybe because islam is similar to communism: great theory for someone else to live by, but when it comes to adhering to the rules for individuals, they really aren't interested. The 'leaders' will pretend to practice the lifestyle in public, but when out of view, it is a different story. They will force their followers/subjects to live by their ideals; it keeps them in power.

 

[Kalam]

Islam is a more racist religion that even judaism,

Islam is diametrically opposed to racism.

O People! Listen to my words, for I do not know whether we shall ever meet again and perform Hajj after this year. O Ye people! Allah says, O people We created you from one male and one female and made you into tribes and nations, so as to be known to one another. Verily in the sight of Allah, the most honoured amongst you is the one who is most God-fearing (The Qur'an, 49:13.) There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab and for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for the white over the black nor for the black over the white except in God-conciousness.

All mankind is the progeny of Adam and Adam was fashioned out of clay. Behold; every claim of privilage whether that of blood or property, is under my heels except that of the custody of the Ka’bah and supplying of water to the pilgrims, O’ people of Quraish, don’t appear (on the Day of Judgement) with the burden of this world around your necks, whereas other people may appear (before the Lord) with the rewards of the hereafter. In that case I shall avail you naught against Allah.

- Muhammad, The Final Sermon.​

 

[Kalam]

If you have read the quran, have you read the Bible? Have you noted the conflicts between the two books? Do you realize Mohammed claims to have the same source as the One in the Bible? Yet, the quran is full of conflicting statements with the Bible and its prophets.

That's because, as I've explained, no care was taken to preserve the Bible and prevent it from being corrupted at the hands of men. The Qur'an was delivered to correct the errors of the Bible, and history indicates that the Qur'an has remained unaltered.

Islam claims it is educated, yet it does almost nothing to improve the standard of living for any of its followers.

According to whose standard? Who represents "Islam"? Why should we assume that the religion is properly adhered to by all of those who claim to believe in it?

Some of the accomplishments of Islam:
Inventions of the Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It destroys artifacts that demonstrate its falsehoods.

?

It will not consider any books, not of islam origins.

My guess is that I've read more "non-Islamic" books than the overwhelming majority of non-Muslims.

How can it claim it is a religion of peace when it gives islam enemies no opportunity to repent?

You'd do well to study the religion before attempting to criticize it...

Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth), these it is to whom I turn; and I am the Oft-returning, the Merciful. - 2:160

Except those who repent after that and amend, for surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 3:89

And as for the two of you who are guilty of it, give them both a slight punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them. Surely Allah is ever Oft-returning, the Merciful. - 4:16

But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, Allah will turn to him. Surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 5:39

And those who do evil deeds, then repent after that and believe -- thy Lord after that is surely Forgiving, Merciful. - 7:153

But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith. And We make the messages clear for a people who know. - 9:11

Know they not that Allah is He Who accepts repentance from His servants and takes the alms, and that Allah -- He is the Oft-returning, the Merciful? - 9:104

Except those who repent and believe and do good -- such will enter the Garden, and they will not be wronged in aught. - 19:60

And surely I am Forgiving toward him who repents and believes and does good, then walks aright. - 20:82

Except those who afterwards repent and act aright; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 24:5

Except him who repents and believes and does good deeds; for such Allah changes their evil deeds to good ones. And Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. And whoever repents and does good, he surely turns to Allah a turning. - 25:70-71

But as to him who repents and believes and does good, maybe he will be among the successful. - 28:67

And He it is Who accepts repentance from his servants and pardons evil deeds, and He knows what you do. - 42:25
​

 

[Kalam]

Maybe because islam is similar to communism: great theory for someone else to live by, but when it comes to adhering to the rules for individuals, they really aren't interested. The 'leaders' will pretend to practice the lifestyle in public, but when out of view, it is a different story. They will force their followers/subjects to live by their ideals; it keeps them in power.

This description is fundamentally inaccurate; The Islamic religion itself has no "leaders" and hasn't since 632 CE.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Maybe because islam is similar to communism: great theory for someone else to live by, but when it comes to adhering to the rules for individuals, they really aren't interested. The 'leaders' will pretend to practice the lifestyle in public, but when out of view, it is a different story. They will force their followers/subjects to live by their ideals; it keeps them in power.

This description is fundamentally inaccurate; The Islamic religion itself has no "leaders" and hasn't since 632 CE.

bay’ah can be given to any leader a muslims chooses to pledge allegiance to ,as long as it does not involve disobedience towards Allaah.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I agree the Quran warns muslims to be truthful with other muslims' none muslims is a different story.

Show this to be true using the Qur'an.

Thanks for asking
These ayat set the conditions for taqiyya.

3:28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allâh warns you against Himself (His Punishment)[], and to Allâh is the final return.

2:173. He has forbidden you only the Maytatah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a scrifice for others than Allâh (or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., on which Allâh's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:185. The month of Ramadân in which was revealed the Qur'ân, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance and the criterion (between right and wrong). So whoever of you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadân i.e. is present at his home), he must observe Saum (fasts) that month, and whoever is ill or on a journey, the same number [of days which one did not observe Saum (fasts) must be made up] from other days. Allâh intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allâh [i.e. to say Takbîr (Allâhu-Akbar; Allâh is the Most Great) on seeing the crescent of the months of Ramadân and Shawwâl] for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him.

4:26. Allâh wishes to make clear (what is lawful and what is unlawful) to you, and to show you the ways of those before you, and accept your repentance, and Allâh is All Knower, All Wise.

16:116. And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: "This is lawful and this is forbidden," so as to invent lies against Allâh. Verily, those who invent lies against Allâh will never prosper.

22:78. And strive hard in Allâh's Cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity and with all your efforts that His Name should be superior). He has chosen you (to convey His Message of Islâmic Monotheism to mankind by inviting them to His religion, Islâm), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship,[] it is the religion of your father Ibrahim (Abraham) (Islâmic Monotheism). It is He (Allâh) Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Qur'ân), that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind![] So perform As Salât (Iqamat-as-Salât), give Zakât and hold fast to Allâh [i.e. have confidence in Allâh, and depend upon Him in all your affairs] He is your Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.), what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.) and what an Excellent Helper!

40:28. And a believing man of Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) family, who hid his faith said: "Would you kill a man because he says: My Lord is Allâh, and he has come to you with clear signs (proofs) from your Lord? And if he is a liar, upon him will be (the sin of) his lie; but if he is telling the truth, then some of that (calamity) wherewith he threatens you will befall on you." Verily, Allâh guides not one who is a Musrif (a polytheist, or a murderer who shed blood without a right, or those who commit great sins, oppressor, transgressor), a liar!

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I was half-inclined to respond to you a bit more civilly, but since you are a bit of a dope and have your own issues of incivility, I guess it will save time to just be blunt.

You know, you're right in that I could have replied a bit more politely. My apologies; I tend to be a sarcastic wench sometimes. I hope there is no permanant damage? * * * *

I did not read the rest of your post after reading that opening paragraph. The reason?

I do not care to engage you any further. And I do not mean that in a derogatory way.

What I mean is: I have decided not to discuss this topic (Islam) in such detail any further. I am not particularly religious. My limited religious beliefs are what they are, and I see no reason to seek to impose my views on you. I am not open to having anybody try to impose Islam on me, either.

I have been rude in discussing Islam, in fact. Not just to you, but to Kalam and Sunni Man and perhaps to many other Muslims as well. Although I do harbor quite negative views about Islam and the Qur'an, I confess that there is not a whole lot of valid purpose served in venting about it. I noted it. I stand by my low opinion of Islam. But it is a bit unseemly (of me) to be spewing it at you or at other believers of that faith.

So, for the future, although I reserve my right to comment about it as the discussion might warrant, I have resolved not to go out of my way to be so offensive in expressing that view of Islam.

My apologies to you, to Sunni Man, to Kalam and to any other Muslims whom I have needlessly offended in my unnecessarily overt way. I do not apologize for my low opinion of Islam or even for stating that I have a low opinion of Islam. But I do apologize for spending too much time on the topic -- and rather pointlessly at that. The insults I have offered became gratuitous. That was uncool. Mea culpa.

It is easy to get carried away by emotion, it is best to try to say on track.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[Kalam]

3:28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allâh warns you against Himself (His Punishment)[], and to Allâh is the final return.

Absolutely no reference is made here to dishonesty, explicit or implicit. Moreover, this verse is conditional and applies only to those believers who disrespect Islam and oppress Muslims. Clarification is offered in 60:7-8.

2:173. He has forbidden you only the Maytatah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a scrifice for others than Allâh (or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., on which Allâh's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Here, Muslims are allowed to eat food that isn't halal if they're starving and no other food is available. Again, no reference is made to dishonesty or even disbelievers. Moving on...

2:185.

The nonsensical attempts at clarification provided by the author(s) of your translation render this verse indecipherable. I'll reproduce it here using a coherent translation:

Ramadan is the month in which the Qur'an was revealed as guidance to man and clear proof of the guidance, and criterion. So when you see the new moon you should fast the whole month; but a person who is ill or travelling should fast on other days, as God wishes ease and not hardship for you, so that you complete the number, and give glory to God for the guidance, and be grateful.​

Yet again, no references are made to dishonesty or disbelievers. Muslims who are ill or traveling are permitted to fast in accordance with their needs as long as they make up for any shortcomings whenever doing so becomes possible. I'm not even sure that you're reading these passages before you post them.

4:26. Allâh wishes to make clear (what is lawful and what is unlawful) to you, and to show you the ways of those before you, and accept your repentance, and Allâh is All Knower, All Wise.

...OK. Clearly, your method of interpretation is very esoteric. Would you please highlight any references to the permissibility of lying in this passage for the benefit of those of us with lesser minds?

16:116. And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: "This is lawful and this is forbidden," so as to invent lies against Allâh. Verily, those who invent lies against Allâh will never prosper.

There are very few people who would point to a passage that specifically condemns lying as proof that Islam permits dishonesty towards unbelievers. Congratulations.

22:78

Strive in the way of God with a service worthy of Him. He has chosen you and laid no hardship on you in the way of faith, the faith of your forbear Abraham. He named you Muslim earlier, and in this (Qur'an), in order that the Prophet be witness over you, and you be witness over mankind. So be firm in devotion, pay the zakat, and hold on firmly to God. He is your friend: How excellent a friend is He, how excellent a helper!​

0 for 6. I'm sure you just posted a bunch if unrelated passages to get my guard down. Certainly, the final passage you cite will knock my argument out of the park. Let's see:

40:28.

And a believing man of Firon's people who hid his faith said: What! will you slay a man because he says: My Lord is Allah, and indeed he has brought to you clear arguments from your Lord? And if he be a liar, on him will be his lie, and if he be truthful, there will befall you some of that which he threatens you (with); surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar:​

Oh, wow.

surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar

surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar

surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar​

Let's remind ourselves that this is a passage from a verse that you pointed to as evidence that lying is permissible. Let the irony sink in. You, sir, are truly an idiot and a detriment to intelligent critics of Islam everywhere. Good day.

 

[Kalam]

Maybe because islam is similar to communism: great theory for someone else to live by, but when it comes to adhering to the rules for individuals, they really aren't interested. The 'leaders' will pretend to practice the lifestyle in public, but when out of view, it is a different story. They will force their followers/subjects to live by their ideals; it keeps them in power.

This description is fundamentally inaccurate; The Islamic religion itself has no "leaders" and hasn't since 632 CE.

bay’ah can be given to any leader a muslims chooses to pledge allegiance to ,as long as it does not involve disobedience towards Allaah.

A pledge of allegiance to any person who is not one of Allah's messengers is an expression of disobedience towards Allah SWT. The Qur'an makes it clear that believers are to govern themselves through consultation (42:38.) Autocratic forms of government involve taking people for lords other than Allah SWT, shirk.

 

[BigBarry]

kalam do you believe man was made out of play-doh too?

"Behold! thy Lord said To the angels: 'I am about To create man, from sounding clay From mud moulded into shape; 'When I have fashioned him (In due proportion) and breathed Into him of My spirit, Fall ye down in obeisance Unto him.' (The Noble Quran, 15:28-29)"

 

[Kalam]

kalam do you believe man was made out of play-doh too?

"Behold! thy Lord said To the angels: 'I am about To create man, from sounding clay From mud moulded into shape; 'When I have fashioned him (In due proportion) and breathed Into him of My spirit, Fall ye down in obeisance Unto him.' (The Noble Quran, 15:28-29)"

Not really.

And these parables, We set them forth for men, and none understand them but the learned. - 29:43​

 

[BigBarry]

kalam do you believe man was made out of play-doh too?

"Behold! thy Lord said To the angels: 'I am about To create man, from sounding clay From mud moulded into shape; 'When I have fashioned him (In due proportion) and breathed Into him of My spirit, Fall ye down in obeisance Unto him.' (The Noble Quran, 15:28-29)"

Not really.

And these parables, We set them forth for men, and none understand them but the learned. - 29:43​

What does that mean? More like silly putty?

Please explain. Or do you not follow the kornran?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

3:28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allâh warns you against Himself (His Punishment)[], and to Allâh is the final return.

Absolutely no reference is made here to dishonesty, explicit or implicit. Moreover, this verse is conditional and applies only to those believers who disrespect Islam and oppress Muslims. Clarification is offered in 60:7-8.

Thanks for providing more opportunity to reveal the facts .
As typical you fail to produce any scholarly judgment to back up your assertions , You fail to use the available knowledge the ulema uses to judge and make legal decisions .
A much fuller application of Islamic text is required to render authoritative opinion.
Here is a short example of your failure to grasp what is used and how legal decisions are found with in Islam scripture.
3:28
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Accepting dissimulation is right and necessary, based on wisdom. Because on one side, preserving the life, property and reputation is necessary and on the other side, manifesting one’s belief and following it, are all religious duties. So when a person is choosing one of those obligatory duties, he should give precedence to the most important one, according to wisdom.
Actually religious dissimulation is considered as weapon for the weak against evil-doers. It is obvious that if there was not any danger, a man would not hide his belief and would not act against his own faith. Based on the clarification of Quran in the story of ‘Ammaar Yaaser; a person who is captured by wrong-doers, for being saved, can say blasphemous words –while his heart remains in his belief-. (1)
In another verse, the believers have been prohibited to not appoint a disbeliever as their Wali (leader), and he who does that will be far from God, unless by the way of dissimulation. (2)
Mentioning this verse, the commentators consensually say that the principle of religious dissimulation is legitimate, and he who is familiar with jurisprudential and exegetical sources, will realize that dissimulation is one of Islamic principles and those mentioned verses in Quran cannot be ignored; one of Pharaoh's people, who was in secret a believer (3). Concerning the recent verse, none of people can deny the religious dissimulation (Al-taqiyya).​

shi'a questions-Islamic Beliefs-innovation in religion-Religious dissimulation (al-Taqiyya)

The referance to 16:116 was a typo the text I intended to quote was 16:106

16:106. Whoever disbelieved in Allâh after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is wrath from Allâh, and theirs will be a great torment.

War is deceit

By Allah, and Allah willing, if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath.' "

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better."

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

kalam do you believe man was made out of play-doh too?

"Behold! thy Lord said To the angels: 'I am about To create man, from sounding clay From mud moulded into shape; 'When I have fashioned him (In due proportion) and breathed Into him of My spirit, Fall ye down in obeisance Unto him.' (The Noble Quran, 15:28-29)"

Not really.

And these parables, We set them forth for men, and none understand them but the learned. - 29:43​

What does that mean? More like silly putty?

Please explain. Or do you not follow the kornran?

"kalam" is a cafeteria muslims picking and choosing this and that.
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Makr Makr signifies a secret strategy of which the victim has no inkling until the decisive blow is struck. Until then, the victim is under the illusion that everything is in good order. See Holy Qur'an, Aali-Imran (3:54).

 

[Sunni Man]

As usual Mr. Fitnuts, you are try to make this verse into something that it is not.

Qur'an 3:54: They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer.

It is a part of some verses talking about the people who were hatching a plot to kill Jesus.

The verse is saying that bad people will plot and scheme evil things,

but God will always out smart them with a better scheme to foil their plans.

 

[BigBarry]

Islamists are all made out of clay, isn't that right, you fucking retard towelhead?