Islamists and "the right to offend"

[C_Clayton_Jones]

.

The murderers in France sought to issue "consequences" to those who dared to offend them.

Here's an interesting piece on that: The Blame for the Charlie Hebdo Murders - The New Yorker

From the piece:

The killers are soldiers in a war against freedom of thought and speech, against tolerance, pluralism, and the right to offend—against everything decent in a democratic society.

I wonder if anyone on this side of the Atlantic will take note.

Okay, doubtful, but I wonder.

.

What everyone should 'take note' of is that this demonstrates once again how wrong most conservatives are, and that 'political correctness' is in fact a myth.

No one on this side of the Atlantic is advocating against freedom of thought or speech, or against tolerance, pluralism, and the right to offend – quite the opposite in fact, the more offensive the speech the better.

And those in the context of private society who condemn offensive speech are in no way enemies of free expression.

 

[Esmeralda]

The proper response, worldwide, would be for every newspaper in every democratic country to put on their front page for a week the cartoon that these murderers found so objectionable. Not as an insult to Islam, but as a declaration that free speech will not be infringed on in a just society.

That would not be the 'proper' response. Not all cultures and societies have free speech. It is not a given. Neither free speech nor democracy are givens as absolute rights or wrongs. There are no absolute rights and wrongs. If you believe that, then you can have no objection to conservatives, for example, who say that homosexuality is wrong: period. An absolute. Assuming your standards of right and wrong are what every culture or society in the world should accept is being narrow minded, not broad minded as you seem to assume when you support the right to free speech.

However, I don't support or think in any way it is okay to murder people who don't think the way others do. As in Joe's example above, if you go to a bar where there are a lot of bikers and start insulting them or their beliefs or lifestyle, you may very well get beaten up. I don't think that's okay, but that will happen because it is their belief system and their lifestyle you are insulting. Many people who see themselves as ordinary good people will try to hurt someone who has insulted something they hold dear: for example, a man might beat up another man for insulting his wife or mother.

The shooting in Paris is an extreme example, and those men are murderers, but they are playing out in fatal terms what most people do daily: defending what they hold most dear. To have newspapers world wide insult Islam on a daily basis for any length of time does not show that the countries which do that are being righteous: it shows they are being small minded. Punishing murderers is one thing, punishing people for holding something dear is another.

I don't know the passage in the Koran that says to murder anyone who insults Islam, but I do know similar types of passages are found in the Bible, like stoning adulterers, but modern, sane people don't do that. I've lived many years in Muslim countries and no one has tried to kill me because I am a non-believer in Islam. Modern, sane Muslims do not follow archaic ideas in the Koran any more than modern, sane Christians follow archaic ideas in the Bible.

 

[JoeB131]

The Islamic world's problem is with a Free World.

Really? What "Free World" is that? One where Corporations choose your candidates rather than Clerics?

 

[JoeB131]

They certainly shouldn't come whining to me that "Those people I went out of my way to offend came by and did something nasty to me!"

You offend people here on a daily basis. Would you apply that statement to YOURSELF if someone shot you in the face for the thing you post? Just shut up you blithering idiot.

Which is why I don't post under my real name or tell you all where I live.

If I did, given how batshit crazy half you people are, I'd be really worried.

 

[Toro]

They certainly shouldn't come whining to me that "Those people I went out of my way to offend came by and did something nasty to me!"

You offend people here on a daily basis. Would you apply that statement to YOURSELF if someone shot you in the face for the thing you post? Just shut up you blithering idiot.

Which is why I don't post under my real name or tell you all where I live.

If I did, given how batshit crazy half you people are, I'd be really worried.

You're more likely to go postal than most people here.

There is no right to not be offended. Western society takes precedence over Islam, not the other way around.

 

[JoeB131]

You're more likely to go postal than most people here.

There is no right to not be offended. Western society takes precedence over Islam, not the other way around.

Actually, I'm probably not. I don't worship guns like most of the assholes here. I had enough of guns in the Army, thanks.

There is no right to not be offended. There should be a bit of common sense. It's why as much as I hate your Mormon buddies, I don't walk into the middle of a Mormon Temple and start ranting about how Joseph Smith was a lying pedophile. I might get away with it the first couple of times, but eventually someone's going to be upset.

Same thing here. This magazine went out of its way to insult Muslims, now they are whining some Muslims did something about it.

No Sympathy.

 

[martybegan]

.

The murderers in France sought to issue "consequences" to those who dared to offend them.

Here's an interesting piece on that: The Blame for the Charlie Hebdo Murders - The New Yorker

From the piece:

The killers are soldiers in a war against freedom of thought and speech, against tolerance, pluralism, and the right to offend—against everything decent in a democratic society.

I wonder if anyone on this side of the Atlantic will take note.

Okay, doubtful, but I wonder.

.

Hey, Mac, maybe you can walk into a working class bar, and then talk to the biggest, nastiest looking bloke in there and start making comments about his mother's sexual proclivities. When you get the expected results, you can then explain to him about your "right to offend".

Right after you use a dustpan to collect your teeth off the floor.

These murderers should be hunted down, prosecuted and punished.

But people should also show judgment and good taste in what to publish. They certainly shouldn't come whining to me that "Those people I went out of my way to offend came by and did something nasty to me!"

So people should be cowed by whoever decides violence is a response to harmless speech?

Joe the Fascist being Joe the Fascist.

The Garner protestors got blamed for 2 cops being killed. Who was trying to 'cow' them into silence?

Did you see ME blaming the Garner protesters for the 2 cops?

I asked you who was. Want to try again?

Plenty of people. but not me, and that's the point.

Defending JoeBlow puts you down with the primordial ooze of this message board.

 

[martybegan]

That's a direct confrontation with people, not publishing a magazine.

The two are entirely different.

Not really. The Magazine was pushing a direct confrontation.

No, it isn't. Unless the publishers run up to a person and shove the magazine in their face.

Quit lying in an attempt to justify your Fascism.

 

[JoeB131]

No, it isn't. Unless the publishers run up to a person and shove the magazine in their face.

Quit lying in an attempt to justify your Fascism.

These are magazines that are available on line and on every news stand. Yes, the magazine was trying to insult people. They succeeded.

 

[martybegan]

No, it isn't. Unless the publishers run up to a person and shove the magazine in their face.

Quit lying in an attempt to justify your Fascism.

These are magazines that are available on line and on every news stand. Yes, the magazine was trying to insult people. They succeeded.

Insulting online or in print or even on radio/TV is not a direct confrontation like your example of some asshole going into a Marine bar and saying "fuck the marines"

 

[JoeB131]

Insulting online or in print or even on radio/TV is not a direct confrontation like your example of some asshole going into a Marine bar and saying "fuck the marines"

Well, it's not as effective, but the intent was the same.

Or do you really think that the publishers of Hebdo were thinking, "If we draw this cartoon of a naked Muslim woman with a hijab shoved up her ass, that will really get Muslims to rethink their religion!" ?

It was meant to insult and offend.

Three guys were REALLY insulted and offended.

 

[martybegan]

Insulting online or in print or even on radio/TV is not a direct confrontation like your example of some asshole going into a Marine bar and saying "fuck the marines"

Well, it's not as effective, but the intent was the same.

Or do you really think that the publishers of Hebdo were thinking, "If we draw this cartoon of a naked Muslim woman with a hijab shoved up her ass, that will really get Muslims to rethink their religion!" ?

It was meant to insult and offend.

Three guys were REALLY insulted and offended.

I think the Hedbo publishers were assholes, and I have a feeling you LOVED their anti-religious and capitalist bent. But I have a feeling your fear of Islamists, and the fact that the right has more balls on this issue than the left does (even though the Hedbo guys were ardent leftists) makes you feel the need to justify the actions of those bastards.

Being an asshole is not being deserving of a death sentence.

 

[JoeB131]

I think the Hedbo publishers were assholes, and I have a feeling you LOVED their anti-religious and capitalist bent. But I have a feeling your fear of Islamists, and the fact that the right has more balls on this issue than the left does (even though the Hedbo guys were ardent leftists) makes you feel the need to justify the actions of those bastards.

Being an asshole is not being deserving of a death sentence.

Actually, I never heard of these fools before this week and neither have you.

I have more fear of RIght Wing Gun Nuts than I do of "Islamic Terrorists", as statistically, they are more likely to do me harm.

But I can't get worked up because some attention whores got attention they didn't want.

 

[martybegan]

I think the Hedbo publishers were assholes, and I have a feeling you LOVED their anti-religious and capitalist bent. But I have a feeling your fear of Islamists, and the fact that the right has more balls on this issue than the left does (even though the Hedbo guys were ardent leftists) makes you feel the need to justify the actions of those bastards.

Being an asshole is not being deserving of a death sentence.

Actually, I never heard of these fools before this week and neither have you.

I have more fear of RIght Wing Gun Nuts than I do of "Islamic Terrorists", as statistically, they are more likely to do me harm.

But I can't get worked up because some attention whores got attention they didn't want.

Lol, and an ordinary criminal is 1000 times more likely to go after you and hurt you, yet you want to disarm ordinary citizens, who's chance of actually harming you are orders of magnitude lower still.

As usual you don't look at the big picture. Some guy in the ozarks with an arsenal is content to stay in the ozarks with his arsenal. Islamists want to bring their way of life to YOU, and they don't really care what method they use, be it force, denied assimilation, conversion or simply outbreeding those they disagree with.

 

[JoeB131]

Lol, and an ordinary criminal is 1000 times more likely to go after you and hurt you, yet you want to disarm ordinary citizens, who's chance of actually harming you are orders of magnitude lower still.

Actually most gun deaths are domestic arguments and suicides.

As usual you don't look at the big picture. Some guy in the ozarks with an arsenal is content to stay in the ozarks with his arsenal. Islamists want to bring their way of life to YOU, and they don't really care what method they use, be it force, denied assimilation, conversion or simply outbreeding those they disagree with.

Or maybe they want to be left the fuck alone.

Again, in the last 30 years we have bombed, invaded or occupied 14 Islamic Countries. It seems like if anyone is bringing violence to anyone, we are bringing it to them.

So the same people who are totally cool with 2000 dead in Gaza (mostly women and children) are the ones who are just horrified some attention whore cartoonists were shot.

 

[martybegan]

Lol, and an ordinary criminal is 1000 times more likely to go after you and hurt you, yet you want to disarm ordinary citizens, who's chance of actually harming you are orders of magnitude lower still.

Actually most gun deaths are domestic arguments and suicides.

As usual you don't look at the big picture. Some guy in the ozarks with an arsenal is content to stay in the ozarks with his arsenal. Islamists want to bring their way of life to YOU, and they don't really care what method they use, be it force, denied assimilation, conversion or simply outbreeding those they disagree with.

Or maybe they want to be left the fuck alone.

Again, in the last 30 years we have bombed, invaded or occupied 14 Islamic Countries. It seems like if anyone is bringing violence to anyone, we are bringing it to them.

So the same people who are totally cool with 2000 dead in Gaza (mostly women and children) are the ones who are just horrified some attention whore cartoonists were shot.

So it's not your 'gun nuts" thanks for proving my point.

The cartoonists were also not launching rockets into towns.

But feel free to start Jew Bashing, all you would need is some militant mormons and you would be able to jerk off to this thread.

 

[gtopa1]

Hey, Mac, maybe you can walk into a working class bar, and then talk to the biggest, nastiest looking bloke in there and start making comments about his mother's sexual proclivities. When you get the expected results, you can then explain to him about your "right to offend".

Right after you use a dustpan to collect your teeth off the floor.

These murderers should be hunted down, prosecuted and punished.

But people should also show judgment and good taste in what to publish. They certainly shouldn't come whining to me that "Those people I went out of my way to offend came by and did something nasty to me!"

So Islam is 'The Biggest Bloke in the Bar"?

ROFLMNAO! Puhlease....

Islam is a cult of inbreds, who are succumbing to generations of dialing out genetic viability... and demonstrating the downside to dialing out genetic viability.

It's the same for Left who dial out economic viability, then blame those who have contested their efforts for the economic catastrophes that come in consequence. Just as it is the same for the Left's drive to dial out cultural viability through the attempt to normalize cognitive abnormalities, such as that which presents sexual abnormality... and blame that which succumbs to such, when the predictable catastrophe manifests.

It's just evil... that's all. And THAT as was witnessed in France yesterday, is what it does.

Pull back in an attempt to compromise with it and see what happens... My guess, knowing it as I do, is that compromise with evil begets more evil.

Islam is not my faith and I see a lot of Islam which makes me shudder, but it is a legitimate faith. Your portrayal of it is wrong. In France we saw some fanatics with a warped ideology with very little to do with Islam.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

Looks like the French have brought their crises to a conclusion.

France attacks Latest updates - BBC News

Greg

 

[sealybobo]

.

The murderers in France sought to issue "consequences" to those who dared to offend them.

Here's an interesting piece on that: The Blame for the Charlie Hebdo Murders - The New Yorker

From the piece:

The killers are soldiers in a war against freedom of thought and speech, against tolerance, pluralism, and the right to offend—against everything decent in a democratic society.

I wonder if anyone on this side of the Atlantic will take note.

Okay, doubtful, but I wonder.

.

I do not have to "be Charlie" to condemn the killers. The killers are shits but the offensive cartoons were in no way tolerant. They were hateful and directed at Christians, Jews and Muslims, which was against freedom of religion/speech/thought.

Not following you. Are you against the cartoons? I'm an atheist. Can you get any more offensive to a theist than to tell them the god they worship doesn't even exist? Muslims need to chill out like the Christians did sometime in the 1600's. Right around Galalaeo's time. It should be ok to make fun of someones religion. Why should they be off limits? Questioning authority should be a god given right. They're brainwashing people with what sounds very much like a fairy tale and I think all religions should be mocked.

That's fine. It doesn't mean you aren't a divisive asshole that uses propaganda to belittle the beliefs of others.

Religions have had the benefit of brainwashing you all from the day you were old enough to hear the Moses, Jesus or Mohammad story. Which ever one you were told. Religion has a grip on our societies. They have an edge because people want to believe in god(s). And people are stupid. They need to see they're being stupid. So sorry if I give you a verbal smack across the face when I tell you that the god you believe in doesn't exist.

I believe this stupid thought is one way the ruling class holds us back. Watch the old and new Cosmos series and learn the history of religion and learn some science. In other words, time to wake up.

Religion is why we still have starving people on this planet. Religion has had thousands of years and has failed horribly with wars and everything else. Science has come a very long way in a very short amount of time DESPITE the fact that religion fought it every step of the way until just very recently.

Lol, you couldn't give me a verbal smack across the face and you have no idea what I believe or disbelieve. The point is you don't get to tell people what to believe.

No I don't get to tell people what they MUST believe. I don't want to make it illegal to believe in god. I just want to wake people up. The same joy christians feel when they are spreading what they think is the truth, so do I. They truly feel religion is a good thing and I truly think it is bad. Christians haven't always been so nice as to not kill us for not believing. They've gotten better. Now they just threaten us with eternal damnation. So they aren't as bad as Muslims but they were just a few 100 years ago. And even if religion makes people feel good. A lie is a lie is a lie no matter how good it makes you feel. We didn't always have the freedom to say all religions are bullshit and there is no god. But theists have always been free to believe. That is unless they are believing in the wrong god, in which they will kill each other over it. So forgive me if I try to wake up one side of the problem. I'm not even going to try with the Muslims. They all take that shit very seriously like we use to. Today most Christians even understand the bible is filled with allegories and stories meant to teach a lesson. That's a step.

If someone comes up to me and asks me if I know where I'm going when I die, that gives me the right to tell them what I believe. And I'm sorry but telling someone they'll go to hell if they don't believe an unbelievable story sort of makes me want to speak my mind and call bullshit. And if enough people believe this it becomes a problem. And I think way too many Americans believe this. It is holding us back in so many ways. Instead of dealing with reality we're praying to a story people told 2000 plus years ago before we knew anything.

Just look at how Martin Luther and the CHristians treated a fellow theist back in the year 1600.

Giordano Bruno said the universe was bigger than what the bible said.

What did the church say? Do they not read Aristotle where you come from? Or even the Bible?

Bruno said, "I beg you, reject antiquity, tradition, faith, and authority. Let us begin anew, by doubting everything we assume - has been proven."
What was the christian churches response? Heretic! Infidel! Then they killed him.

So for hundreds or thousands of years we were not allowed to question authority. Do you think a 2000 year old brainwashing is easy to wake up from? When your parents put it in your head from as far back as you can remember? With the threat of hell being thrown in? Can you see how easy it would be to brainwash our society just like the Muslims are being brainwashed with the same premise! An imaginary man does not exist. Believing it is bad for you. Stop it.

Oh sowwy, you don't wike being towd what to do.

 

[sealybobo]

Hey, Mac, maybe you can walk into a working class bar, and then talk to the biggest, nastiest looking bloke in there and start making comments about his mother's sexual proclivities. When you get the expected results, you can then explain to him about your "right to offend".

Right after you use a dustpan to collect your teeth off the floor.

These murderers should be hunted down, prosecuted and punished.

But people should also show judgment and good taste in what to publish. They certainly shouldn't come whining to me that "Those people I went out of my way to offend came by and did something nasty to me!"

So Islam is 'The Biggest Bloke in the Bar"?

ROFLMNAO! Puhlease....

Islam is a cult of inbreds, who are succumbing to generations of dialing out genetic viability... and demonstrating the downside to dialing out genetic viability.

It's the same for Left who dial out economic viability, then blame those who have contested their efforts for the economic catastrophes that come in consequence. Just as it is the same for the Left's drive to dial out cultural viability through the attempt to normalize cognitive abnormalities, such as that which presents sexual abnormality... and blame that which succumbs to such, when the predictable catastrophe manifests.

It's just evil... that's all. And THAT as was witnessed in France yesterday, is what it does.

Pull back in an attempt to compromise with it and see what happens... My guess, knowing it as I do, is that compromise with evil begets more evil.

Islam is not my faith and I see a lot of Islam which makes me shudder, but it is a legitimate faith. Your portrayal of it is wrong. In France we saw some fanatics with a warped ideology with very little to do with Islam.

Greg

My relatives who live around a lot of Muslims in Dearborn, MI say they do hear about Muslims trying to force their way on the rest of us. I disagree. They think they just want their religious beliefs acknowledged as much as Christians. Christians admit they believe this is a Jewdao Christian nation. I say it is not. It is for Muslims and Atheists too. Clearly some of the founding fathers were athiests or at least agnostic because they were smart enough to separate church and state.

I like the Muslims pushing their views. I hope it forces us to realize that we need to keep church and state separate. Muslims are making a lot of Americans realize religion is all made up. How can both religions be right? Maybe both are wrong? Of course you think yours is the right one. You grew up around it. They believe just as strongly too. If god never talked to Mohammad, maybe he never talked to Jesus or Moses either. Something to ponder.

So in America, if you are going to give Easter and Xmas off, you might have to give Muslim days off too. And instead of a nativity scene we'll have a Muslim scene of when Mohammad slayed the infidels.

Or better yet, we take all religion out of everything that is government or public.

And I'm hoping that the next generation of Muslim Americans do what the rest of America is doing. Moving away from religion. I have arabic friends who moved from Iran and they are full blown atheists now. Why? Because in America you have the freedom to think.