Israel will obliterate Hamas and fully occupy Gaza

[peacefan]

With what?

with your statement :

American Presidents since Carter have all been pretty naive and stupid in dealing with Arabs.

 

[peacefan]

That's a plan for endless war between Israel and the Palestinian terrorists. The only rational response to this invasion is for Israel to acknowledge the withdrawal from Gaza was a mistake and to reoccupy Gaza and hunt down and eliminate the terrorists.

first of all, it was a series of incursions (by Hamas), not an invasion.

and i think re-occupation of the Gaza Strip by the Israelis would be a huge mistake.

 

[DudleySmith]

with your statement :

American Presidents since Carter have all been pretty naive and stupid in dealing with Arabs.

Ah.

 

[peacefan]

The same could be said of Western Europe for much of the 20th century. Things change.

Peace came to Europe after the forced expulsion of ethnic Germans from surrounding countries. Maybe time for Israel to expel the Palestinians.

and to grant them plenty of living space! and a fresh water supply for their farms!

 

[toomuchtime_]

The ME has always been at war, and for several millennia before the 20th Century. War is normal in that region. War is normal for a lot of the planet, actually, something Americans are oblivious to, having two giant moats between us and the rest of the world.

War had been a normal state in Europe for millennia until WWII. Now war is rare among the formerly warlike Europeans. There is no reason to think the people in the ME cannot also make war rare in the ME.

 

[DudleySmith]

War had been a normal state in Europe for millennia until WWII. Now war is rare among the formerly warlike Europeans. There is no reason to think the people in the ME cannot also make war rare in the ME.

Yes, there is; there is a vast difference in cultures and religions that makes it obvious there will never be 'peace' in the ME without outside power forcing it on them. And, as we've seen, Europe gets less and less 'peaceful' every year. The 'Big Stick' is turning into a dry twig. It is one of the regions where FDR's fantasy of decolonization and free trade has been a disaster.

 

[braalian]

and to grant them plenty of living space! and a fresh water supply for their farms!

Plenty of room in Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE.

I’m sure their Muslim brothers can spare a fraction of their oil money to house a few hundred K each….

 

[toomuchtime_]

Peace came because the US forced it on some other big nations, and kept a lot of the little wars localized. With its hegemony collapsing, the power vacuum is getting larger and larger and wars will get bigger and bigger. Only idiots, drunks, and stoners are deluded into believing we can stay out of it all and they will all leave us alone n stuff.

Actually, it was an Egyptian, Sadat, that started the peace movement in the ME after the 1973 war, and the US then tried to facilitate the negotiations between Israel and Egypt, just as the US facilitated the changes in Europe at the end of WWII.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Yes, there is; there is a vast difference in cultures and religions that makes it obvious there will never be 'peace' in the ME without outside power forcing it on them. And, as we've seen, Europe gets less and less 'peaceful' every year. The 'Big Stick' is turning into a dry twig. It is one of the regions where FDR's fantasy of decolonization and free trade has been a disaster.

No one forced Egypt to seek peace with Israel after the 1973 war, but once it did, the US facilitated the process just as it had in Europe after WWII. Normalization of relations with Israel among other Arab states is still a work in progress, but only those states under the control of Iran are still actively looking for conflict with Israel. This is clear progress toward peace in the ME.

 

[peacefan]

Yes, there is; there is a vast difference in cultures and religions that makes it obvious there will never be 'peace' in the ME without outside power forcing it on them. And, as we've seen, Europe gets less and less 'peaceful' every year. The 'Big Stick' is turning into a dry twig. It is one of the regions where FDR's fantasy of decolonization and free trade has been a disaster.

Europe is still more peaceful than the US is, judging by what Fox News US and my own national TV news air.

 

[Kruska]

Peace came to Europe after the forced expulsion of ethnic Germans from surrounding countries. Maybe time for Israel to expel the Palestinians.

Nonsense talker - by far the most wars in Europe since the 12th century amongst nations were conducted on behalf of England, France, Spain, Russia, Sweden and the Ottomans. Some of them stretching for hundreds of years of continued wars.

Peace came to Europe due to the EU and NATO. replacing military conducted expansion, via money and politics.

The same principle applies to the Israeli/Palestinian issue. The initial plan to create a State of Israel and Palestine - both based on an idiotic patchwork of separated and disconnected territories - impossible to guarantee an economic survival as a nation. The Zionists naturally realized this, and took matters (land-allocations) into their own hands - before the UN mandate expired.

Thus creating a connected Israel territory that would allow for an economy to support a population and state. For the Palestinians this was never done nor achieved - a Gaza or a West-bank - simply doesn't work to support an economy and thus creating a peaceful nation.

The only way to solve this dilemma - aside from killing each other for the next 100 years - would be to divide the former Palestine in it's e.g. horizontal width - then choosing which side gets the Northern and Southern part. Maybe one part keeping the entire Jerusalem entity or a Palestinian/Jewish council to govern a neutral Jerusalem.

Anything else would and will never work.

 

[peacefan]

"A belief is not merely an idea the mind possesses; it is an idea that possesses the mind."
Robert Oxton Bolt

mr Bolt is wrong. a belief can possess the heart, the mind, both, or neither, and just be held in either or both the heart and the mind, maybe only for a while even!

 

[toomuchtime_]

first of all, it was a series of incursions (by Hamas), not an invasion.

and i think re-occupation of the Gaza Strip by the Israelis would be a huge mistake.

It was the largest cross border attack and if Israel had not left Gaza, such an attack on Israel would not have been possible. Clearly, the only way Israel can prevent these attacks from getting larger and larger and killing more and more Israelis is to reoccupy Gaza and hunt down and eliminate the terrorists.

 

[peacefan]

It was the largest cross border attack and if Israel had not left Gaza, such an attack on Israel would not have been possible. Clearly, the only way Israel can prevent these attacks from getting larger and larger and killing more and more Israelis is to reoccupy Gaza and hunt down and eliminate the terrorists.

doing so would tip the balance of global public opinion in favor of the Palestinians, and with that the recruiting power among the youth, so i'm gonna have to vote against it.
i'd much rather see Israel do a short intense campaign against the purpetrators of this attack,
followed by very reasonable peace proposals that give land back to the Palestinians,
or replace it with land granted to the Palestinians by neighboring countries (in good talks with Israel).

 

[BS Filter]

I hope so.Then the dumb Muslim pigs attack Israel. Armageddon

 

[toomuchtime_]

mr Bolt is wrong. a belief can possess the heart, the mind, both, or neither, and just be held in either or both the heart and the mind, maybe only for a while even!

Gibberish. If you begin with a belief, then everything that you think next will be compatible with that belief, thus the belief possesses the mind.

 

[braalian]

doing so would tip the balance of global public opinion in favor of the Palestinians, and with that the recruiting power among the youth, so i'm gonna have to vote against it.

Aside from the Arab/Muslim countries, who will always hate Israel no matter what, I actually think you’re wrong about that.

I think people are deeply disgusted by the surprise attack, the scale of it, taking hostages from a music festival, all of it.

People will support Israel, even if they go so far as to occupy or even annex Gaza. This is truly a turning point in international opinion, and not one in the Palestinians favor.

 

[peacefan]

Gibberish. If you begin with a belief, then everything that you think next will be compatible with that belief, thus the belief possesses the mind.

nonsense, i hold several beliefs that even conflict with each other from time to time, beliefs that may conflict with reality from time to time,
yet i function like any ordinary atheist thinker would; rationally and sensibly.

 

[peacefan]

Aside from the Arab/Muslim countries, who will always hate Israel no matter what, I actually think you’re wrong about that.

I think people are deeply disgusted by the surprise attack, the scale of it, taking hostages from a music festival, all of it.

People will support Israel, even if they go so far as to occupy or even annex Gaza. This is truly a turning point in international opinion, and not one in the Palestinians favor.

time will tell.

 

[toomuchtime_]

doing so would tip the balance of global public opinion in favor of the Palestinians, and with that the recruiting power among the youth, so i'm gonna have to vote against it.
i'd much rather see Israel do a short intense campaign against the purpetrators of this attack,
followed by very reasonable peace proposals that give land back to the Palestinians,
or replace it with land granted to the Palestinians by neighboring countries (in good talks with Israel).

Silly stuff. The only reason this attack came from Gaza and not from Judea and Samaria is that the IDF is still in Judea and Samaria and not in Gaza.

Israel would have much rather negotiated peace with the Palestinians, and that's why in 2000 Israel offered the PA 93% of the land in Gaza and Judea and Samaria with an overpass between Gaza and Judea, but the Palestinians responded with the second intifada, and why Israel offered it again, with more land and joint jurisdiction over Jerusalem and Abbas refused to accept it, and that's why Israel withdrew from Gaza and closed outlying settlements in Samaria, but that just led to more terrorist attacks.

No rational analysis the Palestinians' repeated refusal to accept peace with Israel and the fact that there is no Palestinian leader today that can credibly offer peace would lead someone to believe a negotiated peace with the Palestinians is possible, and that means there is no rational alternative to reoccupying Gaza and eliminating the terrorists if Israel is to protect its people from more and larger invasions from Gaza.