Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

[Shusha]

Any other country using tank artillery against civilians ...

He was not a civilian. He was a combatant with an IED.

 

[Shusha]

See, the underlying issue here, Humanity, is your inability to let go of the "innocent civilian" portrait you paint of Palestinians. You appear to be claiming that no Gazan has committed acts of violence in this past week. And that is a latent and fundamental bias stemming, I believe, from your belief in "Israeli (read: Jew) as evil". If you were to accept that it is the Gazans, the Palestinians, who are committing evil acts at this protest, it would violate that deep bias that you have against Israel/Jews. But objectively, the facts support my position and not yours.

 

[Humanity]

And in the meantime, are you going to condemn the violence and the incitement to violence committed against Israel? I suspect you will not. I suspect you, like others here, feel that Arabs have the right to "resist" while Jews do not have the right to defend themselves. I suspect that you hold double standards with respect to use of force -- one set of rules for Israel and one for others. You are just more careful than others to reveal it.

As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.

However, yes, the Palestinians DO have a right to resist. Hell, if they didn't Israel would be much larger than it is already! Legally or otherwise!

As you well know, I have said that Israel has the right to defend itself. No double standards from me on that one!

The issues I have are the excessive use of force by Israel. Something that you will not accept.

And you accuse me of double standards!

Both you and I know that there is such an imbalance of 'forces' yet you consider that tanks are an acceptable answer to stones and slingshots... Want to discuss double standards?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Slingshots are weapons of war no less deadly than a rifle.

 

[Shusha]

The issues I have are the excessive use of force by Israel.

And I have given you many opportunities on this to answer a simple question: Under what circumstances are Gazans permitted to use lethal force against Israel? You say that Gazans have a right to "resist" -- does that include to the right to use lethal force? And under what conditions is lethal force permissible for Gazans?

You have also had opportunities to answer the inverse: Under what circumstances are Israelis permitted to use lethal force? You say they have the right to defend themselves -- does that include the right to use lethal force? And under what conditions is lethal force permissible for Israel?

There is no double standards in my answer to these questions, as I've already indicated. Let's talk about your answers then.

 

[Shusha]

As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.

And yet you fail to do this on this very appropriate thread, despite being asked multiple times. Why is that?

 

[Humanity]

As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.

And yet you fail to do this on this very appropriate thread, despite being asked multiple times. Why is that?

Because I have not seen any evidence of the Palestinian, you claim to be planting bombs.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What was wrong with the one I already posted?

I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!

• Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur

That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!

• Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective

Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?

And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".

Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US

Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.

How fucked up is that?

 

[Humanity]

See, the underlying issue here, Humanity, is your inability to let go of the "innocent civilian" portrait you paint of Palestinians. You appear to be claiming that no Gazan has committed acts of violence in this past week. And that is a latent and fundamental bias stemming, I believe, from your belief in "Israeli (read: Jew) as evil". If you were to accept that it is the Gazans, the Palestinians, who are committing evil acts at this protest, it would violate that deep bias that you have against Israel/Jews. But objectively, the facts support my position and not yours.

See, the underlying issue here is that you will NEVER accept any wrong doing by Israel. Period.

That is where, sadly, you create extremists.

What is it that you want? Do you want a balanced discussion or just shouting? Until you realise that Jews are no more special than anyone else, they are not gods chosen ones, that Jews may have been persecuted for centuries, but that does NOT give them the right to persecute!

You said it "special rules for Israel" and, I will tell you that people are a bit sick and tired of it...

 

[Humanity]

What was wrong with the one I already posted?

I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!

• Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur

That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!

• Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective

Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?

And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".

Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US

Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.

How fucked up is that?

How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What was wrong with the one I already posted?

I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!

• Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur

That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!

• Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective

Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?

And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".

Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US

Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.

How fucked up is that?

How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...

The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>> using tank artillery against civilians

Do you see it now?

 

[rylah]

Check this out,
on the 4th of April this was posted by Abu Ali:

Who were killed in the march of return - the Palestinian media is doing the job for Israel. Just pick up from the floor and use it.
(warning graphic)

Last Friday, the "March of Return" clashes erupted on the fence with Gaza. At the end, 17 Palestinians were killed and over one thousand wounded Palestinians with varying degrees of injury. According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, approximately 800 wounded were shot by Israeli snipers.
Numerous claims have been made since then against the excessive use of force by Israel in an attempt to suppress the demonstrations on the fence.
There were also allegations of harm to civilians without distinction by Israeli snipers.
In the attached document, I will present the data about the fatalities as they were raised in the Palestinian media - and by public means.

I would like to point out that in the days after March 30, two more fatalities were added to the list of casualties, and they are included in the document.
The document refers to the 19 victims of the events - and it is correct as of April 4, 2018
Before the data are detailed, and for the sake of readers' convenience, I will note that of the 19 killed there are:

7 Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades operatives from the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades
1 The operative of the military wing of the Islamic Jihad, Saraya al-Quds
2 Activists of Katayef al-Maqawama al-Wataniya al-Filastina - the military wing of the Democratic Front
1 An operative of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the military wing of Fatah, the Shahid Nakhl al-'Amudi faction
1 Hamas security forces operative (armed)
1 A military activist of the Fatah movement
1 Shada al-Aqsa - the Shahid unit Nabil Mas'ud - an Iranian-oriented faction
1 A Hamas-affiliated operative with an orientation to the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades.
1 Fatah activist - It has not been proven that he is a military activist
3 without any significant organizational affiliation

Total of 15 persons with actual military identification.
Another 4 whose connection to military activity has not been proven.

Note: Failure to find the contact in the Palestinian media openly does not indicate that they are not active in the military.
Another important factor to consider when examining the identity and affiliation of those killed is the fact that out of 19 fatalities, it is possible to clearly identify 15 military operatives, ie around 80% of those killed.
The entire Gaza Strip has fewer than 70,000 military operatives, including all the various organizations. Gaza has a population of 2 million today. In other words, the percentage of military operatives out of the total population is less than 3.5%.
Thus, the dry facts show that although the share of military operatives in the population is only 3.5 percent, in practice, 80 percent of those killed are military operatives. That is, 23 times their percentage in the population. This high rate of casualties is even more astonishing in light of the fact that they were dressed in civilian clothes and could not be identified in advance as military activists.

On April 5th in the early morning (3:55 am)
known Hamas affiliated twitter account posted a short warning:

"Do not publish any military photos of martyrs back in Bata."
amir.nafsy on Twitter


Abu Ali only showed how easily available this information for the average Arab speaker,
draw up Your own conclusions.

 

[Shusha]

As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.

And yet you fail to do this on this very appropriate thread, despite being asked multiple times. Why is that?

Because I have not seen any evidence of the Palestinian, you claim to be planting bombs.

Your argument, then, is that he was an innocent farmer planting melons under the fence on the morning of a protest/riot inside a 300m no-go zone which has existed for ten years, after reading the social media and delivered pamphlets that instructed protesters not to approach the fence during the protest.

Out of curiosity, are you denying ALL of the incidences of IEDs planted along the fence in the past weeks, or just this one?

 

[Humanity]

What was wrong with the one I already posted?

I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!

• Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur

That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!

• Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective

Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?

And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".

Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US

Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.

How fucked up is that?

How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...

The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>> using tank artillery against civilians

Do you see it now?

The topic was the killing of a Palestinian BEFORE the protests by use of tank artillery...

Now, perhaps keep up or piss off!

 

[Shusha]

What is it that you want? Do you want a balanced discussion or just shouting? Until you realise that Jews are no more special than anyone else, they are not gods chosen ones, that Jews may have been persecuted for centuries, but that does NOT give them the right to persecute!

You said it "special rules for Israel" and, I will tell you that people are a bit sick and tired of it...

Special rules? I am suggesting, on this thread, that Israel be "permitted" to legally and morally use lethal force on those who are literally, in the moment, using lethal force on her! The HORROR!

(And, btw, I have NEVER played the "chosen ones" card on this board. Nor, to my recollection, has any other person on Team Israel. The very fact that you bring this up is an indication of YOUR bias. Not mine.)

 

[Humanity]

As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.

And yet you fail to do this on this very appropriate thread, despite being asked multiple times. Why is that?

Because I have not seen any evidence of the Palestinian, you claim to be planting bombs.

Your argument, then, is that he was an innocent farmer planting melons under the fence on the morning of a protest/riot inside a 300m no-go zone which has existed for ten years, after reading the social media and delivered pamphlets that instructed protesters not to approach the fence during the protest.

Out of curiosity, are you denying ALL of the incidences of IEDs planted along the fence in the past weeks, or just this one?

My argument is that the tank shelling of a farmer BEFORE the march has not, in any way, been shown as a justifiable attack on a "combatant".

I am still waiting for your proof to support this.

 

[Humanity]

Nor, to my recollection, has any other person on Team Israel.

Fascinating... I have heard of selective hearing, never selective reading!

I guess that just shows YOUR bias, not mine!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What was wrong with the one I already posted?

I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!

• Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur

That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!

• Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective

Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?

And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".

Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US

Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.

How fucked up is that?

How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...

The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>> using tank artillery against civilians

Do you see it now?

The topic was the killing of a Palestinian BEFORE the protests by use of tank artillery...

Now, perhaps keep up or piss off!

No, the topic was how can people who target civilians not get condemned.

I agree, we should condemn the Palestinians who do that.

Maybe your Palestinian terrorists...err...farmers should farm further away from the border, eh?

 

[Shusha]

My argument is that the tank shelling of a farmer BEFORE the march has not, in any way, been shown as a justifiable attack on a "combatant".

I am still waiting for your proof to support this.

What proof could I possibly offer? What are the standards of proof?

He was digging under the fence, inside a no-go zone that was established ten years ago, at a time when IEDs are being planted in holes dug in the ground under the fence, on a day of a massive protest, when Hamas is shouting from the rooftops that they plan to breach the fence into sovereign Israel territory. There is video of the event.

What is the missing piece of information here? What is the standard here?

Is it: "Israel must not use lethal force unless it has video evidence that the alleged perpetrator was holding an explosive or otherwise harmful device which is clearly identifiable to the lay man in Western countries and that this video must be published within 12 hours of any use of force?"

 

[Shusha]

Fascinating... I have heard of selective hearing, never selective reading!

Speaking of selective reading....Why are you still avoiding my core question?

This isn't hard.

"I condemn the use of lethal force by Gazans to achieve political aims."