Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

[rylah]

Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...

Collective Punishment
Collective punishment is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).

Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.

But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions. Are they collective punishment?

When do they become collective punishment?

Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior. That's better than bombing them. So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.

At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?

You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?

What does a farmer exporting strawberries have to do with weapons? Or a student going to college in the US or Europe have to do with weapons?

Can one turn a fertilizer into fuel, or an explosive?

Deflection.

What does that have to do with exports?

How does one grow fruit on for export quantity without chemicals? Do they have a plant for that?

I'm just guessing here, I never checked this thing out.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I agree, the disease of radical Islam must be eradicated.

The disease, is the Israeli occupation.

They moved out of Gaza, it was in all the papers.

 

[rylah]

Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...

Collective Punishment
Collective punishment is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).

Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.

But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions. Are they collective punishment?

When do they become collective punishment?

Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior. That's better than bombing them. So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.

At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?

At the point of peace, or when the whole point is to cause death of non-militants.

But what if it IS causing the death of non-militants? Even if that is not the point - it is the result?

Can You bing a specific case?

 

[Shusha]

And a bit more about the journalist who was killed: Yasser Murtaja becomes hero for journalists under fire

Watch this documentary and it quickly becomes obvious why Murtaja’s funeral was attended by hundreds of residents from all over Gaza, from the most senior political officials to the many children who loved to follow him around. The documentary showcases his skill as a videographer for Ain (“Eye”) Media. He risked entering Shujayea along with paramedics following the Israeli massacre in July 2014, despite their inability to obtain a permit from the invading army to enter the community. Eight-year-old Bisan Daher was trapped in the rubble of her home along with two other family members (five others already had died) and Murtaja documented the daring rescue. His close-in shots foreshadowed the courage he showed by photographing Palestinian protesters near the Israeli border (reportedly about 300 meters away).

It is rare to see coverage, on the Palestinians who get killed, that shows them as real people - beyond numbers.

The article also states this, which might explain the lack of a lot of blood:
According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), Murtaja was recording the events—while wearing a blue vest prominently labeled “press”—when he was hit in the abdomen by a sniper’s bullet, rupturing the main artery feeding his intestines; he was declared dead after 12 hours of severe internal bleeding.

I wonder if he could have been saved if he had been gotten to a proper hospital quickly?

Yes. That might explain the lack of blood. But then you have to consider why the witnesses said there was blood. It's just odd.

I am certain they took him to a hospital quickly. And a proper one. But they may have been unable to control the bleeding.

 

[Correll]

You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?

Weapons is just Israeli propaganda bullshit. For example the flotillas was inspected by the governments where loaded. Everyone was invited to inspect the cargo before departure. The flotilla offered to allow any international body to inspect while at sea.

Everybody knew there were no weapons. Israel attacked and killed people anyway.

And if it was allowed to pass, then the blockade would become an illegal blockade.


And the weapons would flow.

It always was. What is your point.

Not according to any international law I have ever read.


The humanitarian blockade was an attempt to force the blockade, using PR as it's weapon.


So that Israeli critics would be correct, in calling it illegal.

Not according to any international law I have ever read.

I believe this is what I researched when the blockade attempt was made a couple of years ago.


Treaties, States parties, and Commentaries - San Remo Manual on Armed Conflicts at Sea, 1994 - 93--108 - METHODS OF WARFARE


Blockade

93. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States.

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.

96. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements.

97. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document.

98 Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.

99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.

100. A blockade must be applied impartially to the vessels of all States.

101 The cessation, temporary lifting, re-establishment, extension or other alteration of a blockade must be declared and notified as in paragraphs 93 and 94.

102 The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival;or
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:

(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.

104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Or the cure, and Gaza is not occupied...but keep drinking don't let me bother You.

If its not occupied, then why can't they leave? Why can't vessels bring in humanitarian aid to its ports, if it isn't occupied?

You don't have to have a standing army to satisfy the definition of an "occupation".

If its not occupied, then why can't they leave?

Nobody wants them.

 

[rylah]

Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...

Collective Punishment
Collective punishment is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).

Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.

But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions. Are they collective punishment?

When do they become collective punishment?

Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior. That's better than bombing them. So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.

At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?

At the point of peace, or when the whole point is to cause death of non-militants.

If you throw a rock at a soldier, you should be shot. You are a militant.

Honestly, if you are stupid enough to even taunt a member of the military who is armed with a firearm, and trained to kill people.... then honestly you should but shot just as a public service. You are clearly holding society back with that level of stupidity.

Basically I agree.
My impression is that we were not discussing combat in battlefield.
There I expect zero tolerance for Islamo-Nazi Swastika bearers. ZERO.

My family on both sides fought the Fascist on 2 continents, not to see Israel give in to them EVER AGAIN. Enough is enough. Can't even imagine what went through our boy's minds when they saw that Swastika waved at Israel...

Hashem will pay them all, may their filthy Amalekite name be forever gone.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...

Collective Punishment
Collective punishment is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).

Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.

But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions. Are they collective punishment?

When do they become collective punishment?

Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior. That's better than bombing them. So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.

At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?

You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?

What does a farmer exporting strawberries have to do with weapons? Or a student going to college in the US or Europe have to do with weapons?

Can one turn a fertilizer into fuel, or an explosive?

Deflection.

What does that have to do with exports?

How does one grow fruit on for export quantity without chemicals? Do they have a plant for that?

I'm just guessing here, I never checked this thing out.

The agricultural ministry in Gaza has been working on organic farming for over a decade. (alternates to chemicals)

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, et al,

Specifically: Terrorist is a crime. It is a variation of coercion. Lying about knowledge of such activity is also a criminal offense in most sophisticated countries.

I'm not sure how that relates to what I said Rocco, because I am not talking about confiscation for criminal purposes. I'm talking about destroying the homes of a terrorist's family - who have not engaged in criminal behavior - as punishment.

(COMMENT)

The intent of actions plans, such as the one I cited in Posting #1027, outline its role under the Charter, including actions related to international peace and security.

I don't know the background of every single Residential Confiscation (and probable destruction as the final disposition) that you may be aware, but the forfeiture of such residences has what is often described as a chain of support provided by close friends and family. And intent and purpose of the execution of measures such as this are to implement action that will have the greatest potential in the "prevention" of Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.

Not every nation in the world has laws and protections like that of the US. Certainly, the MiddelEast nations do not grant such latitude. But almost every nation in the Middle East takes a dim view and often take punitive action against those that are found guilty of:

1) knowingly and willfully;
2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation;
3) in any matter within the jurisdiction​

I am personally unaware of any family tree that suffered the complete destruction of every single residence associated with that family tree in connection with providing material support to Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric fighters. Like the US, if the evidence leads backwards through the family tree and each branch makes false, fictitious or fraudulent statements, the potential for destruction grows with each fabrication.

If a series of family members make false, fictitious or fraudulent statements pertaining to a family member who has engaged in such criminal activity (terrorism) → they (as well) are engaged in criminal behavior at their own peril.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?

What does a farmer exporting strawberries have to do with weapons? Or a student going to college in the US or Europe have to do with weapons?

Can one turn a fertilizer into fuel, or an explosive?

Deflection.

What does that have to do with exports?

How does one grow fruit on for export quantity without chemicals? Do they have a plant for that?

I'm just guessing here, I never checked this thing out.

The agricultural ministry in Gaza has been working on organic farming for over a decade. (alternates to chemicals)

Then I have to research.
I know that one can make fuel out of oranges, apples...etc.

Haven't looked into the subject.

P F Tinmore bring me a case.

 

[MaryL]

Nice people those Israeli Jews.

Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd for no reason whatsoever. Just like that. Please, what is the part you left out?

 

[rylah]

P F Tinmore what about exports through Egypt?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Nice people those Israeli Jews.

Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd for no reason whatsoever. Just like that. Please, what is the part you left out?

If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, et al,

Specifically: Terrorist is a crime. It is a variation of coercion. Lying about knowledge of such activity is also a criminal offense in most sophisticated countries.

I'm not sure how that relates to what I said Rocco, because I am not talking about confiscation for criminal purposes. I'm talking about destroying the homes of a terrorist's family - who have not engaged in criminal behavior - as punishment.

(COMMENT)

The intent of actions plans, such as the one I cited in Posting #1027, outline its role under the Charter, including actions related to international peace and security.

I don't know the background of every single Residential Confiscation (and probable destruction as the final disposition) that you may be aware, but the forfeiture of such residences has what is often described as a chain of support provided by close friends and family. And intent and purpose of the execution of measures such as this are to implement action that will have the greatest potential in the "prevention" of Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.

Not every nation in the world has laws and protections like that of the US. Certainly, the MiddelEast nations do not grant such latitude. But almost every nation in the Middle East takes a dim view and often take punitive action against those that are found guilty of:

1) knowingly and willfully;
2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation;
3) in any matter within the jurisdiction​

I am personally unaware of any family tree that suffered the complete destruction of every single residence associated with that family tree in connection with providing material support to Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric fighters. Like the US, if the evidence leads backwards through the family tree and each branch makes false, fictitious or fraudulent statements, the potential for destruction grows with each fabrication.

If a series of family members make false, fictitious or fraudulent statements pertaining to a family member who has engaged in such criminal activity (terrorism) → they (as well) are engaged in criminal behavior at their own peril.

Most Respectfully,
R

Well...let me ask you this then.

There have been Israeli extremists who have been found guilty of terrorism (two incidents come to mind - the firebombing of a Palestinian home, and the kidnapping, setting on fire and murder of a Palestinian youth. In the former, there had to have been knowledge and protection by the families, because it took considerable time to find the guilty youths.

Were any homes demolished?

 

[Coyote]

Nice people those Israeli Jews.

Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd for no reason whatsoever. Just like that. Please, what is the part you left out?

If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.

Wrong.

Not every person was.

 

[rylah]

... when does something go from sanctions/etc to collective punishment?

Imo, restrictions of weapons and dual use items are a fair and reasonable blockade because they limit the need then for boots on the ground war. This is better and safer for civilians than an all out war. It's actually a limiting action by Israel.

Restrictions on things like electricity or water in which there is an obligation to pay for those services are also fair if the recipient does not pay. However that has to be balanced with some level of humanitarian aid in more serious circumstances. Although Israel should not be obligated to provide free water or other services to neighbouring countries.

Sanctions of comfort items, imo, might be considered a collective punishment. (Though not a harmful one).

That's mjust my opinion in a nutshell.

Thanks - and I actually agree with what you are saying. Israel did also withold tax revenues - that could have paid for water and electricity could it not?

If I remember correctly - it was the exact purpose. Palestinians had a huge part of the debt erased, the rest was paid with taxes.

 

[Coyote]

And a bit more about the journalist who was killed: Yasser Murtaja becomes hero for journalists under fire

Watch this documentary and it quickly becomes obvious why Murtaja’s funeral was attended by hundreds of residents from all over Gaza, from the most senior political officials to the many children who loved to follow him around. The documentary showcases his skill as a videographer for Ain (“Eye”) Media. He risked entering Shujayea along with paramedics following the Israeli massacre in July 2014, despite their inability to obtain a permit from the invading army to enter the community. Eight-year-old Bisan Daher was trapped in the rubble of her home along with two other family members (five others already had died) and Murtaja documented the daring rescue. His close-in shots foreshadowed the courage he showed by photographing Palestinian protesters near the Israeli border (reportedly about 300 meters away).

It is rare to see coverage, on the Palestinians who get killed, that shows them as real people - beyond numbers.

The article also states this, which might explain the lack of a lot of blood:
According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), Murtaja was recording the events—while wearing a blue vest prominently labeled “press”—when he was hit in the abdomen by a sniper’s bullet, rupturing the main artery feeding his intestines; he was declared dead after 12 hours of severe internal bleeding.

I wonder if he could have been saved if he had been gotten to a proper hospital quickly?

Yes. That might explain the lack of blood. But then you have to consider why the witnesses said there was blood. It's just odd.

I am certain they took him to a hospital quickly. And a proper one. But they may have been unable to control the bleeding.

I don't know enough about medical stuff...but bleeding for 12 hours sounds bad, was there an ambulance even? Ugh...we'll never really know...it's just tragic

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Nice people those Israeli Jews.

Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd for no reason whatsoever. Just like that. Please, what is the part you left out?

If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.

Wrong.

Not every person was.

I see you answer this post how about explaining to us what Israel should do OTHER than a blockade to stop weapons? Or to cowardly for that? As for the reporter he was flying a drone giving information to the terrorists.

 

[MaryL]

Nice people those Israeli Jews.

Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd for no reason whatsoever. Just like that. Please, what is the part you left out?

If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.

I read between the lines at the title of this thread. I am in awe here, some people want history to repeat itself.

 

[rylah]

Nice people those Israeli Jews.

Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd for no reason whatsoever. Just like that. Please, what is the part you left out?

If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.

I have to say that I'm with Coyote here, 100% of accuracy is impossible, especially with all the smoke and mess going there.
What I will never agree is that our army's purpose it to just shoot unrelated people. In a country where soldiers are constantly followed by cameras, and they jail a soldier who finished a terrorist lying on the ground after he just stabbed another soldier... let's just say it's unlikely because we fight 2 wars at the same time...

The Russians and the Syrians in the north on the other hand... gas 'em, bomb em out existence - all You hear is a yawn...no Jews to blame.