Zone1 I've been an atheist for 60 years and have never once been tempted to believe in any god

[Blues Man]

You do not believe in god nor in any other kind of "spirit". Right?

I do not believe that IF there are any gods that they have any likeness to the god of the bible.

And define "spirit"

 

[ninja007]

NO SUCH THING AS AN ATHIEST. WHY? BECAUSE UNLESS YOURE GOD YOU CANNOT KNOW 4 SURE- BTW THE BIBLE SAYS YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE BECAUSE PROOF IS IN NATURE.

 

[Blues Man]

Ever heard from Christians in the last 2000 years the sentence "I believe in god"? Ever tried to think about what "to believe" could mean?

You mean they believe in a specific god as described in the iron Age mythology of the bible.

A god with specific personality traits who dabbles in wars, slavery and capricious behaviors who people think will intervene in their mundane lives.

IF there are any gods I am not convinced that any of them are indeed the Abrahamic gods described in the Old Testament, the New Testament or the Koran.

 

[Blues Man]

NO SUCH THING AS AN ATHIEST. WHY? BECAUSE UNLESS YOURE GOD YOU CANNOT KNOW 4 SURE- BTW THE BIBLE SAYS YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE BECAUSE PROOF IS IN NATURE.

So because I am not sure I should just believe in the god you believe in.

Sorry that's not a good enough reason for me.

 

[badbob85037]

When I was 10 years old, we had a dog named Silver. A sealyham - sort of a largish Westie. He had been struck by a car when I was much younger and that had left him blind in one eye. We adapted. He adapted. But whenever he entered an unfamiliar space (the furniture moved, for instance) he would collide with things. I felt bad for him. Like most children my age I believed what I was told was the truth by my parents and the church they took me to. So I prayed as fervently and selflessly as I could manage that God would restore his vision. But, as would happen in any bad movie, his poor vision led Silver to wandering out in front of another car where he suffered another concussion which left him completely blind. Now all dogs go to heaven because all dogs are innocent. Every non-human form of life is innocent of the many sins the Bible spells out. Initially, I was angry. How could God cause my innocent dog to suffer, regardless of his motive or intent? The standard "mysterious ways" line didn't help at all. What did help was the realization that the best explanation was not that god was mysterious or unknowable, but that he simply wasn't there. The existence of the god described by the Bible and by our preacher and the believers I would talk with was simply not possible; not only because it violated all the laws of nature but because absolutely no evidence I could find supported the idea. Every thing I could learn about the world and how it worked refuted the idea of a caring, personal god who had created miraculous humans and a miraculous Earth to be their home and was everpresent, watching over us and, on proper supplication, violating the laws that he himself had set in place - if he felt like it.

As the years went by I simply became more and more convinced that there is a great deal about the working of the universe we do not yet know, but the basics - the principal of uniformitarianism, holds, everywhere and everywhen. Nothing is supernatural. No will directs or inspires the stream of events taking place over the passage of time. Only physics.

What signs or signals should I have caught that might have lured me back to my childhood faith? And how might my life have been different had I done so? I have lots of friends and I'm pretty sure most of them think I'm a nice guy. I buy fully and heartily into the Golden Rule. I believe it to be the sole basis of human civilization. How do you think my complete lack of divine faith hurt me? Will your god throw into a lake of fire because I led a good life but failed to do him obeisance? That is, of course, precisely what scriptures tells us. Why would ANY of you believe, much less WORSHIP such a god? He seems a monster. Would anyone care to correct me?

I know for a fact you have never read the Bible. As if you did you would know for a book written over 2,000 years ago and for telling the future or predicted, mumbo jumbo or whatever else you want to call it and gets it right every time how can you not believe in a supreme being. At least Under Dog or one of the other superheros.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

When I was 10 years old, we had a dog named Silver. A sealyham - sort of a largish Westie. He had been struck by a car when I was much younger and that had left him blind in one eye. We adapted. He adapted. But whenever he entered an unfamiliar space (the furniture moved, for instance) he would collide with things. I felt bad for him. Like most children my age I believed what I was told was the truth by my parents and the church they took me to. So I prayed as fervently and selflessly as I could manage that God would restore his vision. But, as would happen in any bad movie, his poor vision led Silver to wandering out in front of another car where he suffered another concussion which left him completely blind. Now all dogs go to heaven because all dogs are innocent. Every non-human form of life is innocent of the many sins the Bible spells out. Initially, I was angry. How could God cause my innocent dog to suffer, regardless of his motive or intent? The standard "mysterious ways" line didn't help at all. What did help was the realization that the best explanation was not that god was mysterious or unknowable, but that he simply wasn't there. The existence of the god described by the Bible and by our preacher and the believers I would talk with was simply not possible; not only because it violated all the laws of nature but because absolutely no evidence I could find supported the idea. Every thing I could learn about the world and how it worked refuted the idea of a caring, personal god who had created miraculous humans and a miraculous Earth to be their home and was everpresent, watching over us and, on proper supplication, violating the laws that he himself had set in place - if he felt like it.

As the years went by I simply became more and more convinced that there is a great deal about the working of the universe we do not yet know, but the basics - the principal of uniformitarianism, holds, everywhere and everywhen. Nothing is supernatural. No will directs or inspires the stream of events taking place over the passage of time. Only physics.

What signs or signals should I have caught that might have lured me back to my childhood faith? And how might my life have been different had I done so? I have lots of friends and I'm pretty sure most of them think I'm a nice guy. I buy fully and heartily into the Golden Rule. I believe it to be the sole basis of human civilization. How do you think my complete lack of divine faith hurt me? Will your god throw into a lake of fire because I led a good life but failed to do him obeisance? That is, of course, precisely what scriptures tells us. Why would ANY of you believe, much less WORSHIP such a god? He seems a monster. Would anyone care to correct me?

I found Kabbalah explained Life on Earth in a way that really resonated.

I recommend “Satan: an autobiography” by Yehuda Berg

 

[zaangalewa]

I do not believe that IF there are any gods that they have any likeness to the god of the bible.

Stupidity on a high level of stupidity.

And define "spirit"

No.

 

[ReinyDays]

I love naivity.

I see how you embrace it ... but aren't you lying here? ...

If you think lying is okay, then don't expect to be trusted ... "all God's judgements are righteous and true" ...

You lied to the judge about child support, and now your children go hungry ... aren't you proud now? ...

 

[zaangalewa]

You mean they believe in a specific god as described in the iron Age mythology of the bible.

A god with specific personality traits who dabbles in wars, slavery and capricious behaviors who people think will intervene in their mundane lives.

IF there are any gods I am not convinced that any of them are indeed the Abrahamic gods described in the Old Testament, the New Testament or the Koran.

I mean: "Ever heard from Christians in the last 2000 years the sentence "I believe in god"? Ever tried to think about what "to believe" could mean?"

Serios question: Do you use drugs?

 

[zaangalewa]

I see how you embrace it ... but aren't you lying here? ...

If you think lying is okay, then don't expect to be trusted ... "all God's judgements are righteous and true" ...

You lied to the judge about child support, and now your children go hungry ... aren't you proud now? ...

That's what I tried to explain to you. The sin is not the lie in your example. Then sin is an unreal lack of love. This jugde has perhaps in very most cases not the problem that people are liars - he has the problem that they are unreal. They think they are able to solve problems which they are not able to solve. And the victims of their stupidity and vanity are their own children. "Hungry children" are by the way in danger to get brain damages.

 

[ReinyDays]

That's what I tried to explain to you. The sin is not the lie in your example. Then sin is an unreal lack of love.

Your lying aren't you? ... lairs gotta lie I guess ... I imagine your whole life is a lie ... your lifestyle ...

Your Lie-Style .. ha ha ha ha ...

 

[Blues Man]

I mean: "Ever heard from Christians in the last 2000 years the sentence "I believe in god"? Ever tried to think about what "to believe" could mean?"

Serios question: Do you use drugs?

Is not the god Christians believe in a very specific god described in the Iron Age mythology of the Old Testament?

Is this not the god you are telling I must believe in ?

 

[Esdraelon]

Why does that higher power necessarily have to be the god of the bible?

And how do you know there is only one? Oh yeah the bible told you

Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy. As the world events begin to mirror that prophecy in more and more obvius ways, those who refuse to acknowledge the God of the Bible will have to become more adept at explaining away the truths that are becoming apparent. Hopefully, you'll eventually see the reality and reach out to God. If not, then your fate will be your choice.

 

[Blues Man]

Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy. As the world events begin to mirror that prophecy in more and more obvius ways, those who refuse to acknowledge the God of the Bible will have to become more adept at explaining away the truths that are becoming apparent. Hopefully, you'll eventually see the reality and reach out to God. If not, then your fate will be your choice.

JC was just a guy who happened to be a very charismatic religious leader.

The bible is Iron Age mythology

 

[Donald H]

There have been attempts though.

Check this out: Pierre Teilhard de Chardin - Wikipedia

There are many who have tried and are still trying.
Maybe the Catholic church has the best answer. They tell the flock to believe what they like.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I never said I or anyone else could perform miracles so what the fuck are you talking about?

Maybe I had the wrong guy. You don't actually believe in miracles?

Okay, great, if not Chalk up a point in the "rational adult" column for you.

And please don't respond with this childish and whiny, "DID I SAY THAT?!?!?"

No, and you haven't said much. I'm doing my best to understand your position.

 

[Donald H]

I'm pretty sure I have addressed this before but....

Evolution and God are not mutually exclusive. Evolution is anything which moves from a lower state to a higher state; a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. There have been 5 stages of evolution of space and time; cosmic evolution, stellar evolution, chemical evolution, biological evolution and evolution of consciousness.

and sometimes leads to extinction of a species without evolving.

In his book, "The Phenomenon of Man" Pierre Teilhard de Chardin describes evolution as a process that leads to increasing complexity, culminating in a Christ consciousness. He limited his observations to biological evolution but the same observation can be made about all stages of the evolution of space and time. The complexification of matter increased until it naturally and logically made the leap to the next stage. The last and final stage of evolution of space and time is consciousness. So it seems logical that consciousness would also increase in complexity until it to made the leap to the next stage which Chardin describes as Christ consciousness.

1. The universe began as a soup of subatomic particles and radiation and naturally and logically complexified into hydrogen and helium. This is what is called the cosmic stage of the evolution of space and time.
2. Hydrogen and helium then naturally and logically complexified into structures like stars and galaxies. This is what is called the stellar stage of the evolution of space and time.
3. From the life cycle of galaxies and stars all of the other elements and compounds were naturally and logically formed. This is what is called the chemical stage of the evolution of space and time.
4. As chemical evolution naturally and logically complexified the leap to biological life was made. This is what is called the biological stage of the evolution of space and time.
5. As life logically and naturally evolved and complexified the leap to consciousness was made. This is what is called the conscious stage of of the evolution of space and time.

That is likely the most popular theory.

So we can see that each successive stage of the evolution of space and time complexified until it made the leap to the next stage. And it did so naturally and logically.

Good with me so far.

So Chardin's assumption that consciousness will make the leap to a Christ consciousness is logical because it presumes that consciousness will evolve and complexify and make the leap to the next level because every other stage of the evolution of space and time did so too before it.

It's his assumption only but where did he get the idea of a Christ to begin with? Where did anybody get the idea? There's no indication of divine intervention influencing his thought processes.

I would suggest that he was indoctrinated into believing the supernatural at childhood. He picked his Christ out of a hat and he paid no mind to the contradictions between creation and evolution, without offering an excuse.

Does that answer your question? And BTW... this is an example of explaining what something is as opposed to criticizing it. I create. You tear down because you do not possess the intellectual capacity to explain what something is. Primarily because atheism does not require any intellect whatsoever.

Were humans created or did we evolve? Let's tear down one or the other together. We can't just continue to live the lies!

Or at least, I'm not going to!

 

[Insaneworld]

We noticed in 1629 a Christmas song whose text is 300 years older. Such things had been totally normal in former times. As you can see in comparison of our bible textes with the Qumram textes the transmission of such textes was always very exact.

What song do you refer to?

The main issue (for me) is with what is included and what isn't, and who made those decisions. I think the process is corruptible, so I look at The Bible with some pause.

Putting that aside though, there is also the question of how to interpret the words. I've thought for a long time that literal interpretations of The Bible (for example when it comes to creation) are not compatible with science, from evolution to cosmology. So, when The Bible is quoted, the text and the interpretation are both 'in question' for me. This is especially true when I consider how ungodly many Christians can be, how giddy and ready they seem to be to tell others they will burn in hell, how this has been repeatedly twisted to control and extract profits from people. A super important example involves Martin Luther and the question of indulgences.

I think the main trait of a Christian is a love for Jesus and His message, which I have always thought to be one centered on empathy and love for others, 'love thy neighbor as thyself', so I call myself a Christian. Before finding genuine faith in God, I thought a lot about (I still do) the role and purpose of animal and human suffering in the world, and it was in this line of thinking that I eventually managed to find genuine faith that God exists.

In this thread I feel I can relate to both sides a lot, and I think ideally the believers should try to encourage and be understanding of a respectful critique or question from a nonbeliever, since it often stems from a good place. But we are all so ready to get defensive, I think we end up talking past each other most of the time.

 

[Insaneworld]

There are many who have tried and are still trying.
Maybe the Catholic church has the best answer. They tell the flock to believe what they like.

Do you know of other examples? I mean, of trying to balance science with Christianity or religion somehow?

 

[Donald H]

Do you know of other examples? I mean, of trying to balance science with Christianity or religion somehow?

All thinking Christians have to be trying. Our 'Ding' comes the closest to making a serious effort!

We can identify others who are making it into a personal cause, when they erupt with anger and profanity toward anybody who dares raise the question.