Just a clump of cells

[TemplarKormac]

I say healthcare should cover IUD"s.

Intrauterine Devices are severely expensive. The cheapest ones cost at least 250 bucks. Fortunately the law says you can't force religious institutions to provide for such things they believe to be a sin. There has to be a limit.

I often think of how lucky we are to be here. If you have 2 siblings then you are the only three to make it out of the thousands of times your parents did it. I don't feel any sadder about a seed in the first trimester than I do the brothers and sisters that were never born because the sperm didn't crack the egg.

I think of how unlucky a child in the womb has to be, to be so violently destroyed in some cases because the woman simply wishes to make a statement and for nothing else.


“I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born.”

-Ronald Reagan

 

[TemplarKormac]

So, I'm simply going to throw this out here:

There are those of you who fervently defend the choice of a woman to have an abortion as she sees fit. Okay, but what if your mother felt the same way about you? What if she aborted you for the sake of her convenience only? Not a very viable (no pun intended) position, is it?

 

[TemplarKormac]

OP, you can't reason these people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You can't make them accept something that is going to bring them scorn from their ideological comrades. They're not going to accept something like that. They're going to take the position that they do because it wins them acceptance and admiration from their peers. This thread is utterly pointless.

Pedro de San Patricio

No fight is ever pointless if it gains you a worthy goal, makes a worthy point, or saves the life of a child. I gladly welcome the scorn and the backlash if I can hammer home my points, moreover, I won't let their rigidity stop me from stating what I believe. There is a reason these people react so negatively. They know life has meaning, except they don't want to admit that it has any meaning in the womb. I doubt some of their opposition is even genuine, given that some of it is motivated by political preference that for the sake of the woman. Some of this is simply a game for some of them.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

No fight is ever pointless if it gains you a worthy goal or makes a worthy point. I gladly welcome the scorn and the backlash if I can hammer home my points, moreover, I won't let their rigidity stop me from stating what I believe. There is a reason these people react so negatively. They know life has meaning, except they don't want to admit that it has any meaning in the womb. I doubt some of their opposition is even genuine, given that some of it is motivated by political preference that for the sake of the woman. Some of this is simply a game for some of them.

But it won't gain you a worthy goal. It will give them an opportunity to entertain themselves and race each other to the bottom to see who can plumb the depths of immaturity and partisan hate. You won't be hammering your points home because they will be dodged or ignored entirely. You're probably right that some realize how morally indefensible their position is, but it is far outweighed by the opportunity to score brownie points with their fellow libs and the (totally justified) fear of backlash if they publicly accept any of your points. To the sort of people you're dealing with, the game is only fun when someone else is the target.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

So, I'm simply going to throw this out here:

There are those of you who fervently defend the choice of a woman to have an abortion as she sees fit. Okay, but what if your mother felt the same way about you? What if she aborted you for the sake of her convenience only? Not a very viable (no pun intended) position, is it?

Had she I wouldn't have been here to give a good goddamned. There is no right to life. Just life, death, and an odd state before birth and before death when you are coming and going. What doesn't live doesn't care, as it has no way to.

 

[sealybobo]

Somehow, I hear a lot of men, (including myself) speaking about issues that we will never encounter. So, to the liberal guys: just how can you ever know the feelings of a woman who has to or wants to have an abortion? Come now, don't be shy.

Empathy

 

[TemplarKormac]

But it won't gain you a worthy goal. It will give them an opportunity to entertain themselves and race each other to the bottom to see who can plumb the depths of immaturity and partisan hate.

Each time they act in such a manner, they make my point. It proves their lack of an argument. I gladly give them the opportunity to put their ignorance on display.

You won't be hammering your points home because they will be dodged or ignored entirely.

Good thing I know how to debate. Make a good point and force them to rebut, when they run away, you win. A point can be so big that nobody can dodge it, not even a liberal. The key to my debate style? Question everything, make them answer or concede the point.

You're probably right that some realize how morally indefensible their position is, but it is far outweighed by the opportunity to score brownie points with their fellow libs and the (totally justified) fear of backlash if they publicly accept any of your points.

Political grandstanding isn't an argument, shouting out talking points to get people on the forum to click the "thanks" button isn't argument, or a disingenuous one. There is something fulfilling about how malinformed opponents spew invective and vitriol when they have been utterly routed in a debate.

And I could really go for some brownies right about now.

To the sort of people you're dealing with, the game is only fun when someone else is the target.

To be quite honest, I'm not an easy target. Their targeted anger is such the curse the light of a candle despite the darkness.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

OP, you can't reason these people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You can't make them accept something that is going to bring them scorn from their ideological comrades. They're not going to accept something like that. They're going to take the position that they do because it wins them acceptance and admiration from their peers. This thread is utterly pointless.

Pedro de San Patricio

No fight is ever pointless if it gains you a worthy goal, makes a worthy point, or saves the life of a child. I gladly welcome the scorn and the backlash if I can hammer home my points, moreover, I won't let their rigidity stop me from stating what I believe. There is a reason these people react so negatively. They know life has meaning, except they don't want to admit that it has any meaning in the womb. I doubt some of their opposition is even genuine, given that some of it is motivated by political preference that for the sake of the woman. Some of this is simply a game for some of them.

Wrong.

This is very serious.

The issue is not only about abortion, but safeguarding the protected liberty of privacy, prohibiting the state from interfering in personal, private matters individuals alone should decide for themselves.

And it's about conservatives seeking to jeopardize the right to privacy by expanding the size and authority of government at the expense of individual liberty.

Griswold/Eisenstadt/Roe/Casey constitutes a vital, comprehensive legal doctrine that places restrictions on the power of the state, where you and other ignorant rightists are unwittingly undermining that vital legal doctrine, along with our fundamental rights.

 

[sealybobo]

I still think of my three miscarried brothers. Wonder what they would have been like had they survived. Wonder how we would get along now, and if they could have helped me prevent us from losing my living one. This understanding that they were living human beings and what I missed out with them is part of what informs my pro-life beliefs. Every pro-choicer I've explained this to has sneered in contempt and mocked this. I don't expect the crowd here to be any different. I only say it at all to explain my reasoning. OP, you can't reason these people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You can't make them accept something that is going to bring them scorn from their ideological comrades. They're not going to accept something like that. They're going to take the position that they do because it wins them acceptance and admiration from their peers. This thread is utterly pointless.

We understand everything you're saying still abortion should remain legal.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Somehow, I hear a lot of men, (including myself) speaking about issues that we will never encounter. So, to the liberal guys: just how can you ever know the feelings of a woman who has to or wants to have an abortion? Come now, don't be shy.

Empathy

Perhaps. Or a misplaced sense of justice.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I still think of my three miscarried brothers. Wonder what they would have been like had they survived. Wonder how we would get along now, and if they could have helped me prevent us from losing my living one. This understanding that they were living human beings and what I missed out with them is part of what informs my pro-life beliefs. Every pro-choicer I've explained this to has sneered in contempt and mocked this. I don't expect the crowd here to be any different. I only say it at all to explain my reasoning. OP, you can't reason these people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You can't make them accept something that is going to bring them scorn from their ideological comrades. They're not going to accept something like that. They're going to take the position that they do because it wins them acceptance and admiration from their peers. This thread is utterly pointless.

We understand everything you're saying still abortion should remain legal.

Nobody said anything about making it illegal. Wanton abortion perhaps, but nobody is so merciless that you would deny a woman the right to abort in a dire circumstance. Preserve the life of the mother so she will be able to reproduce again.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

No fight is ever pointless if it gains you a worthy goal or makes a worthy point. I gladly welcome the scorn and the backlash if I can hammer home my points, moreover, I won't let their rigidity stop me from stating what I believe. There is a reason these people react so negatively. They know life has meaning, except they don't want to admit that it has any meaning in the womb. I doubt some of their opposition is even genuine, given that some of it is motivated by political preference that for the sake of the woman. Some of this is simply a game for some of them.

But it won't gain you a worthy goal. It will give them an opportunity to entertain themselves and race each other to the bottom to see who can plumb the depths of immaturity and partisan hate. You won't be hammering your points home because they will be dodged or ignored entirely. You're probably right that some realize how morally indefensible their position is, but it is far outweighed by the opportunity to score brownie points with their fellow libs and the (totally justified) fear of backlash if they publicly accept any of your points. To the sort of people you're dealing with, the game is only fun when someone else is the target.

Yes Debate is pointless...

Fuckin;' SOCRATES! What an idiot!

These discussions are not worthy because they may or may not change the mind of those writing the respective arguments.

They're worthy because they may influence the reader who comes behind to read them.

We're not going to change the minds of these idiots. LOL! They're IDIOTS!

The Reader... They deserve to know the truth, to examine the reasoning that gets them there.

And THAT is the reason for the Left's run to gain 'control' of the Internet, to stifle 'the truth'.

 

[TemplarKormac]

So I gather we should stand down in the face of idiocy. I don't understand why.

 

[sealybobo]

I still think of my three miscarried brothers. Wonder what they would have been like had they survived. Wonder how we would get along now, and if they could have helped me prevent us from losing my living one. This understanding that they were living human beings and what I missed out with them is part of what informs my pro-life beliefs. Every pro-choicer I've explained this to has sneered in contempt and mocked this. I don't expect the crowd here to be any different. I only say it at all to explain my reasoning. OP, you can't reason these people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You can't make them accept something that is going to bring them scorn from their ideological comrades. They're not going to accept something like that. They're going to take the position that they do because it wins them acceptance and admiration from their peers. This thread is utterly pointless.

We understand everything you're saying still abortion should remain legal.

Nobody said anything about making it illegal. Wanton abortion perhaps, but nobody is so merciless that you would deny a woman the right to abort in a dire circumstance. Preserve the life of the mother so she will be able to reproduce again.

What you want to do is make abortion illegal unless the mothers life is at risk?

 

[sealybobo]

I want to be able to get my 16 year old an abortion if she made a mistake and isnt ready to be a mommy. And no adoptions not an option.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I still think of my three miscarried brothers. Wonder what they would have been like had they survived. Wonder how we would get along now, and if they could have helped me prevent us from losing my living one. This understanding that they were living human beings and what I missed out with them is part of what informs my pro-life beliefs. Every pro-choicer I've explained this to has sneered in contempt and mocked this. I don't expect the crowd here to be any different. I only say it at all to explain my reasoning. OP, you can't reason these people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You can't make them accept something that is going to bring them scorn from their ideological comrades. They're not going to accept something like that. They're going to take the position that they do because it wins them acceptance and admiration from their peers. This thread is utterly pointless.

We understand everything you're saying still abortion should remain legal.

Nobody said anything about making it illegal. Wanton abortion perhaps, but nobody is so merciless that you would deny a woman the right to abort in a dire circumstance. Preserve the life of the mother so she will be able to reproduce again.

What you want to do is make abortion illegal unless the mothers life is at risk?

If you are fully capable of giving birth with no detriment to your health, with the exception of being raped, the victim of incest, or in dire health, you should be made to have the child. I've held that position for a long time. That woman decided the moment she mounted the horse not to use a condom, so the consequence should be brought to bear.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I want to be able to get my 16 year old an abortion if she made a mistake and isnt ready to be a mommy. And no adoptions not an option.

Er, in this world, mistakes have consequences.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I still think of my three miscarried brothers. Wonder what they would have been like had they survived. Wonder how we would get along now, and if they could have helped me prevent us from losing my living one. This understanding that they were living human beings and what I missed out with them is part of what informs my pro-life beliefs. Every pro-choicer I've explained this to has sneered in contempt and mocked this. I don't expect the crowd here to be any different. I only say it at all to explain my reasoning. OP, you can't reason these people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You can't make them accept something that is going to bring them scorn from their ideological comrades. They're not going to accept something like that. They're going to take the position that they do because it wins them acceptance and admiration from their peers. This thread is utterly pointless.

We understand everything you're saying still abortion should remain legal.

Nobody said anything about making it illegal. Wanton abortion perhaps, but nobody is so merciless that you would deny a woman the right to abort in a dire circumstance. Preserve the life of the mother so she will be able to reproduce again.

What you want to do is make abortion illegal unless the mothers life is at risk?

If you are fully capable of giving birth with no detriment to your health, with the exception of being raped, the victim of incest, or in dire health, you should be made to have the child. I've held that position for a long time. That woman decided the moment she mounted the horse not to use a condom, so the consequence should be brought to bear.

You misunderstand the failure rates of contraception entirely, and what makes the fetus of rape or incest less worthy of life? Also, there's no such thing as a full-term pregnancy that doesn't carry significant health risks, even death. Not a one.

See links post #241.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I want to be able to get my 16 year old an abortion if she made a mistake and isnt ready to be a mommy. And no adoptions not an option.

Er, in this world, mistakes have consequences.

Yes, and we try to mitigate those by medical intervention. Just because I break my leg water-skiing doesn't mean I never walk again.

 

[Dragonlady]

I know many women who have had abortions. They were not sluts. They didn't get pregnant as a result of casual sex. Most were married at the time they had the abortion.

One was married to a man who abused her. She had two babies in two years. He was drinking a lot and became abusive when he drank. He had punched her in the stomach late in her second pregnancy. She made a plan to take her daughters and leave him but that was when she discovered she was pregnant again. There were no easy options for her but for her safety and that of her daughters, she chose to have an abortion and carry out her plan.



Women don't casually discard their pregnancies. Most agonize over the decision. Only one woman I know has had more than one abortion. All have regrets but believe they did the right thing.

Having a child is a lifetime commitment. You will always be your child's mother. Men walk away from their children all of the time. The marriage ends, they remarry and make a new family, with no consideration for the children from their prior relationships. The instances of women acting similarly are much fewer and usually drugs or other addictions are involved.

Yet the right wingers in this thread have the arrogance to suggest that they know what is best for these women even though they don't have to live with the consequences of forcing the women to bear these children.

No one had the right to tell a woman she must have s child. No one. This decision is hers and hers alone. You aren't qualified to preach your beliefs to her.

If you believe abortion is wrong, don't have one. That's my belief and one I have lived by. My body, my choice. When I had an unplanned pregnancy, as my first marriage was crumbling, I chose to have my baby and I've never regretted my choice. But I've never had a pregnancy where there were genetic problems or my health was endangered. Or when I couldn't afford to raise the child, so in that sense I haven't had to make a difficult choice.

But I don't condemn those who made a different decision. I've gone with friends to the hospital and supported their choice to end their pregnancies and I've respected their decisions knowing how carefully they considered it.

The conservatives here talk like it's no big deal to have a baby. It's a huge deal and people should not make the decision lightly. Having a baby changes your life forever. In every way. It requires commitment and if you're not fully committed to this baby, you shouldn't have it.