Just What is Libertarianism?

[PredFan]

Okay, over and over again, I'm reading articles attacking this political philosophy. Here's what Wiki says about it:


Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free") is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as its principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association and the primacy of individual judgement.


If this is the case, why should there be so many attacks against what is, to me, the very foundation of Americanism? Is it a growing dependence on government? An indoctrination in the education system against self-reliance?


And the left – and even some conservatives, are attacking Doctor Rand Paul for being a Libertarian running under a false flag. (I like some of his views, but still would vote for an governor over him)


What do you think?

The definition you quoted has flowery language that is meaningless. You could put "Republican" in front of that definition and every right winger on this board would salute it.

Resistance to Libertarianism is not the result of that definition. It is when you get into specifics that you encounter problems.

End the Fed.

Return to a gold standard.

Legalize all drugs.

Eliminate the FDA, FAA, USDA, IRS, and just about all other federal agencies.

Eliminate all federal laws against financial fraud.

Eliminate all federal safety regulations.

Eliminate all federal child labor laws.

Eliminate all federal environmental regulations.

Shrink our military down to the size of a cub scout troop.

Hyperbolic nonsense.

Every bit is true, and I have provided evidence many times to prove these are actual Libertarian planks. The "cub scout troop" is the only figurative item.

Doubtful that you did.

Okay then! I'll just copy and paste the evidence I provided on page 5 of this topic.

We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.

Source: https://www.lp.org/files/LP Platform 2012.pdf





I mentioned the repeal of child labor laws:

We support repeal of laws that impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws, so-called "protective" labor legislation for women and children, & governmental restrictions on the establishment of private day-care centers. We deplore government-fostered forced retirement, which robs the elderly of the right to work. We oppose all government welfare, relief projects, and "aid to the poor" programs.

No labor laws, no Social Security, no Medicare, no food stamps, etc.

Source: Libertarian Party on Jobs





I mentioned abolish the FDA:

We should replace harmful government agencies like the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) with more agile, free-market alternatives.

Source: Healthcare | Libertarian Party






I said shrink the military down to the size of a cub scout troop:

If the US were to pursue a policy of defending its own borders while avoiding foreign intervention, we could realistically reduce our defense budget to as little as $125 billion over the next five years.

Shrink our military to one eighth its current size.

Source: Libertarian Party on Defense






I said legalize all drugs:

We favor the repeal of all laws creating "crimes" without victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.

Source: Platform | Libertarian Party




It is also well known that libertarians would abolish the Federal Reserve:
Eliminate the Federal Reserve: End the Fed






The elimination of safety regulations:

Pollution of other people's property is a violation of individual rights. Strict liability, not arbitrary government standards, should regulate pollution. We demand the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency.

No environmental regulations. Source: Libertarian Party on Environment





More on the elimination of safety regulations:

We call for the repeal of the Occupational Safety and Health Act. This law denies the right to liberty and property to both employer and employee, and it interferes in their private contractual relations.

Source: National Platform of the Libertarian Party



More on safety regulations:

We oppose all so-called "consumer protection" legislation which infringes upon voluntary trade, and call for the abolition of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Source: 1972 Libertarian Party Platform - LPedia




I said abolish the FAA:

We advocate the abolition of the Federal Aviation Administration, which has jeopardized safety by arrogating to itself a monopoly of safety regulation and enforcement. We call for privatizing the air traffic control system and transferring the FAA's other functions to private agencies.

Source: 1992 National Platform of the Libertarian Party




The FDA again:

We advocate the abolition of the Food and Drug Administration and particularly its policies of mandating specific nutritional requirements and denying the right of manufacturers to make non-fraudulent claims concerning their products.

Source: 1992 National Platform of the Libertarian Party

And you showed exactly what I accused you of: hyperbolic nonsense.

If you are confused, look up
Hyperbole.

 

[g5000]

The definition you quoted has flowery language that is meaningless. You could put "Republican" in front of that definition and every right winger on this board would salute it.

Resistance to Libertarianism is not the result of that definition. It is when you get into specifics that you encounter problems.

End the Fed.

Return to a gold standard.

Legalize all drugs.

Eliminate the FDA, FAA, USDA, IRS, and just about all other federal agencies.

Eliminate all federal laws against financial fraud.

Eliminate all federal safety regulations.

Eliminate all federal child labor laws.

Eliminate all federal environmental regulations.

Shrink our military down to the size of a cub scout troop.

Hyperbolic nonsense.

Every bit is true, and I have provided evidence many times to prove these are actual Libertarian planks. The "cub scout troop" is the only figurative item.

Doubtful that you did.

Okay then! I'll just copy and paste the evidence I provided on page 5 of this topic.

We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.

Source: https://www.lp.org/files/LP Platform 2012.pdf





I mentioned the repeal of child labor laws:

We support repeal of laws that impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws, so-called "protective" labor legislation for women and children, & governmental restrictions on the establishment of private day-care centers. We deplore government-fostered forced retirement, which robs the elderly of the right to work. We oppose all government welfare, relief projects, and "aid to the poor" programs.

No labor laws, no Social Security, no Medicare, no food stamps, etc.

Source: Libertarian Party on Jobs





I mentioned abolish the FDA:

We should replace harmful government agencies like the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) with more agile, free-market alternatives.

Source: Healthcare | Libertarian Party






I said shrink the military down to the size of a cub scout troop:

If the US were to pursue a policy of defending its own borders while avoiding foreign intervention, we could realistically reduce our defense budget to as little as $125 billion over the next five years.

Shrink our military to one eighth its current size.

Source: Libertarian Party on Defense






I said legalize all drugs:

We favor the repeal of all laws creating "crimes" without victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.

Source: Platform | Libertarian Party




It is also well known that libertarians would abolish the Federal Reserve:
Eliminate the Federal Reserve: End the Fed






The elimination of safety regulations:

Pollution of other people's property is a violation of individual rights. Strict liability, not arbitrary government standards, should regulate pollution. We demand the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency.

No environmental regulations. Source: Libertarian Party on Environment





More on the elimination of safety regulations:

We call for the repeal of the Occupational Safety and Health Act. This law denies the right to liberty and property to both employer and employee, and it interferes in their private contractual relations.

Source: National Platform of the Libertarian Party



More on safety regulations:

We oppose all so-called "consumer protection" legislation which infringes upon voluntary trade, and call for the abolition of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Source: 1972 Libertarian Party Platform - LPedia




I said abolish the FAA:

We advocate the abolition of the Federal Aviation Administration, which has jeopardized safety by arrogating to itself a monopoly of safety regulation and enforcement. We call for privatizing the air traffic control system and transferring the FAA's other functions to private agencies.

Source: 1992 National Platform of the Libertarian Party




The FDA again:

We advocate the abolition of the Food and Drug Administration and particularly its policies of mandating specific nutritional requirements and denying the right of manufacturers to make non-fraudulent claims concerning their products.

Source: 1992 National Platform of the Libertarian Party

And you showed exactly what I accused you of: hyperbolic nonsense.

If you are confused, look up
Hyperbole.

"I don't think that word means what you think it does." I did not exaggerate. Libertarianism stands for exactly the things I said it does, and I just proved it in spades. Sorry to make your butt hurt.

I joined the Young Americans for Freedom when I was a teenager, and I have kept my hand in conservative politics ever since. This means I have been rubbing elbows with, and engaging with, Libertarians for damn near 40 years.

I know what Libertarianism is about more than some self-professed Libertarians around here apparently do.

 

[g5000]

It really comes down to degree. There are many libertarian principles I agree with. However, as a philosophy it has the same problem as communism. It begins with the assumption that human beings will mold to the economic system when, in fact, the economic system always molds to the people. Any system, whether political, economic or religious, which does not recognize the nature of human beings and account for it is doomed to failure.

Libertarianism is MUCHore than economics

True, but Libertarians are just as naive and ignorant of human nature in the political realm as they are in the economic. That's why they usually don't score more than 3 to 5 percent in elections.

 

[-S-]

Like I said in another thread recently, saying you are a 'libertarian' nowadays is the equivalent of saying "I vote conservative Republican, but I'm a little too embarrassed to admit it. Also, I love weed".

People around my age are the most at-risk victims of this foolish mislabeling epidemic.

I mean seriously, I talk to a few 'libertarian' friends of mine and they all say something pretty similar to these questions:

Q: "So how about gay marriage?"
A: "Well hmm.. I dunno, but I won't vote for it.."
Q: "Abortion rights?"
A: "Should be completely banned unless the woman will die"
Q: "How about pot?"
A: "YOU HAVE SOME?"

A young adult libertarian, 7 times out of 10, is just a conservative having a love affair with cannabis.

 

[g5000]

Like I said in another thread recently, saying you are a 'libertarian' nowadays is the equivalent of saying "I vote conservative Republican, but I'm a little too embarrassed to admit it. Also, I love weed".

People around my age are the most at-risk victims of this foolish mislabeling epidemic.

I mean seriously, I talk to a few 'libertarian' friends of mine and they all say something pretty similar to these questions:

Q: "So how about gay marriage?"
A: "Well hmm.. I dunno, but I won't vote for it.."
Q: "Abortion rights?"
A: "Should be completely banned unless the woman will die"
Q: "How about pot?"
A: "YOU HAVE SOME?"

A young adult libertarian, 7 times out of 10, is just a conservative having a love affair with cannabis.

On the subject of gay marriage, the Libertarian position is that government is way too involved in the institution of marriage, and gay marriage wouldn't even be an issue if government was not all up in it. A position with which I am in 100 percent accordance, as most of my posts in gay marriage topics demonstrate.

We heteros have been demanding more and more government gifts for being married, and now gays want the same government cash and prizes everyone else gets for being married. It is as simple as that.

Take away the government cash and prizes, and same sex marriage instantly becomes a non-issue.

 

[g5000]

Q: "Abortion rights?"
A: "Should be completely banned unless the woman will die"

That is not the Libertarian position.

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

Platform Libertarian Party

 

[g5000]

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships.

Platform Libertarian Party

 

[rightwinger]

We the People decide what size Government we want and what functions we want them to perform

The ultimate in Libertarianism

Who decided that the EPA could regulate carbon dioxide?

We the People ....established the Environmental Protection Agency to regulate rampant libertarian abuse of our environment

"Its my property, I can dump shit in the river if I want to"

Actually Richard Nixon enacted the EPA and Congress funded it etc. But the EPA itlsef decided it has the power to regulate carbon dioxide. And there was no rampant libertarianism because companies were polluting rivers and land that didnt belong to them.
More nonsense from Nutjobber.

The right to burn and pollute was the libertarian norm in the 1960s

It is my property, I can dump what I want

It was everyone's norm back then idiot.

Libertarians still cling to that norm

 

[-S-]

That is not the Libertarian position.

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

Platform Libertarian Party

Oh, I know it's not. That's what I was pointing out. Way to many 'libertarians' are libertarian in label only.

 

[g5000]

That is not the Libertarian position.

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

Platform Libertarian Party

Oh, I know it's not. That's what I was pointing out. Way to many 'libertarians' are libertarian in label only.

That's what I was saying a moment ago. I know more about what Libertarianism is than some self-professed Libertarians do.

I think some of them would be very surprised to know the actual positions of the philosophy to which they claim to subscribe.

 

[rightwinger]

We the People decide what size Government we want and what functions we want them to perform

The ultimate in Libertarianism

When was the last time we were asked whether a government agency should be created or expanded?

I elect representatives

Don't you?

Nope.

There has been no one that has run who I deemed trustworthy enough to represent me.

Then you trust me to pick your representative for you

Nope.

You see you give up your right to complain when you vote for incompetent people to represent you.

I don't fold to the lesser of 2 evil choice. It's the very definition of a false dichotomy.

I get to pick your representative for you

 

[g5000]

When was the last time we were asked whether a government agency should be created or expanded?

I elect representatives

Don't you?

Nope.

There has been no one that has run who I deemed trustworthy enough to represent me.

Then you trust me to pick your representative for you

Nope.

You see you give up your right to complain when you vote for incompetent people to represent you.

I don't fold to the lesser of 2 evil choice. It's the very definition of a false dichotomy.

I get to pick your representative for you

Then you must be really stupid, because you are doing a really lousy job of it.

<--- Lesser of two evils.

 

[rightwinger]

I elect representatives

Don't you?

Nope.

There has been no one that has run who I deemed trustworthy enough to represent me.

Then you trust me to pick your representative for you

Nope.

You see you give up your right to complain when you vote for incompetent people to represent you.

I don't fold to the lesser of 2 evil choice. It's the very definition of a false dichotomy.

I get to pick your representative for you

Then you must be really stupid, because you are doing a really lousy job of it.

<--- Lesser of two evils.

Not as stupid as someone who allows others to pick their representatives for them and then just sits on the sidelines and pouts

 

[konradv]

The problem with libertarianism isn't with the philosophy, as much as the results. Encouraging more person to person dealings insures that without supervision more of the strong will inevitably prey on the weak. I don't find that to be a good idea for the long term stability of a civilization. It was tried before. We call it feudalism. A system in which someone doesn't look to government for protection, but a patron. We can't do everything for ourselves, as much as libertarians would like us believe it. Some will inevitably dominate. Without regulation, some will exploit their neighbors. That unfortunately is human nature and, like the Marxists, the libertarians seem to ignore the obvious on that score

 

[Dot Com]

"I support my Congressman because he fights all that pork spending by those other assholes in Congress. I also support him because he brings home the bacon to our district."

Gimme, gimme, gimme and make that guy over there pay for it.

or "build publicly-funded, roads, sewers, and power lines to my place of business but don't make me serve non-whites".

 

[rightwinger]

The problem with libertarianism isn't with the philosophy, as much as the results. Encouraging more person to person dealings insures that without supervision more of the strong will inevitably prey on the weak. I don't find that to be a good idea for the long term stability of a civilization. It was tried before. We call it feudalism. A system in which someone doesn't look to government for protection, but a patron. We can't do everything for ourselves, as much as libertarians would like us believe it. Some will inevitably dominate. Without regulation, some will exploit their neighbors. That unfortunately is human nature and, like the Marxists, the libertarians seem to ignore the obvious on that score

Most things in life we are better off doing on our own. But other things can be better done as part of a collective society using Government to our advantage.
We are better off as part of a whole than as a bunch of individuals

 

[bripat9643]

Okay, over and over again, I'm reading articles attacking this political philosophy. Here's what Wiki says about it:


Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free") is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as its principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association and the primacy of individual judgement.


If this is the case, why should there be so many attacks against what is, to me, the very foundation of Americanism? Is it a growing dependence on government? An indoctrination in the education system against self-reliance?


And the left – and even some conservatives, are attacking Doctor Rand Paul for being a Libertarian running under a false flag. (I like some of his views, but still would vote for an governor over him)


What do you think?

Liberals are opposed to freedom. They just proved it with their hissy fit over the Indiana "don't have to bake a cake for queers" law.

 

[bripat9643]

"I support my Congressman because he fights all that pork spending by those other assholes in Congress. I also support him because he brings home the bacon to our district."

Gimme, gimme, gimme and make that guy over there pay for it.

or "build publicly-funded, roads, sewers, and power lines to my place of business but don't make me serve non-whites".

In that case I should be able to help myself to your liquor cabinet, right? If using anything funded by the taxpayers means government gets to run our lives, then we might as well toss freedom in the trash bin.

Just admit you despise freedom. You're a servile toady of the fascist police state.

 

[bripat9643]

The problem with libertarianism isn't with the philosophy, as much as the results. Encouraging more person to person dealings insures that without supervision more of the strong will inevitably prey on the weak. I don't find that to be a good idea for the long term stability of a civilization. It was tried before. We call it feudalism. A system in which someone doesn't look to government for protection, but a patron. We can't do everything for ourselves, as much as libertarians would like us believe it. Some will inevitably dominate. Without regulation, some will exploit their neighbors. That unfortunately is human nature and, like the Marxists, the libertarians seem to ignore the obvious on that score

Most things in life we are better off doing on our own. But other things can be better done as part of a collective society using Government to our advantage.
We are better off as part of a whole than as a bunch of individuals

There is nothing we are better off using government to accomplish.

 

[bripat9643]

Libertarian: We believe in freedom and liberty
Republican: We believe in freedom and liberty
Democrat: We believe in freedom and liberty

Libertarian: We believe in free weed.
Republican: We believe in freedom and libery
Democrat: If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

Libertarians don't believe in free weed, and conservatives don't believe in freedom and liberty. They certainly don't believe in the freedom to consume whatever recreational drugs you choose to consume.