Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[kaz]

Again, you don't even know what the Constitution is. The Constitution is a LIMIT on Federal power. The GOVERNMENT cannot give you cruel and unusual punishment. That's what the eighth says. The Constitution is not a power of the Federal government to go out and control citizens behavior between each other.

How do you not know what the Constitution is? That's pathetic

Holy shit man. I NEVER SAID THAT. The 8th Amendment limits ALL COURTS, federal, state, and local from doling out cruel and unusual punishment. It is extended from the Federal government to the states through the 14th Amendment.

Right, but that isn't the point you made. You argued that it violated the Constitution because he was shot. The government did not shoot him. That's just stupid

No I didn't. I was arguing with Skull Pilot because he said he didn't care that the guy got shot and killed just for a simple assault.

I asked if he supported the Constitution... which has the 8th Amendment that protects citizens from Cruel and Unusual punishment. I said if he supports that, then he should care that the guy was shot and killed for simple assault. Not because the 8th Amendment protects him for that, but because they share the same principle. They aren't the same, nor does the 8th Amendment cover it, but they follow the same principle, so saying you agree with the rights the 8th Amendment gives, but then saying you don't think it is a fair principle in other parts of society is being a hypocrite.

Of course they don't share the same principle. No one ever said or meant that the Constitution should dictate interactions between citizens. It's about dictating to government how it will treat it's citizens. It's a limit on government power.

For example, government cannot restrict free speech. However, you can shit can your employees for what they say, break of with your wife, disavow your friends, criticize them on television. No one ever thought or meant that you have free speech from the consequences of other citizens. It's a horrible argument

Firing an employee isn't the same thing...

That could mean several different things. But no, firing employees for what they say has nothing to do with the Constitution. If you get that, you're getting it now

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Already a thread on this.
The guy was justified but I think he went to far.

What justified him pulling a gun on someone who wasn’t threatening him?

Getting assaulted?

 

[kaz]

What does it have to do with your Democrat party plan of only disarming honest citizens while doing nothing about the criminals?

I don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about. First, I'm not a Democrat. Secondly I'm not for disarming honest citizens.

I'm for common sense laws like not letting fucking people like those getting Federal disability for a mental condition being allowed to buy guns for one... which was the VERY first executive order Trump signed when he became President.

Lewdog: "I'm not a Democrat"

You gave up the right to that lie when you took up race whoring on their behalf. No one is so inanely stupid that you'd believe this country has become stereotypical Alabama in the fifties. You have to be a partisan sheep to believe that. Give up the lie now that you've clearly established what you are

Race whoring? Sorry when I see the facts, it's not whoring. I'll send you several books proving it, but I no you wouldn't read them. I've shared stats with you that show 61% of murders in the U.S. in 2016 didn't even get solved, so they had no idea what the demographic of the killer was. Yet you refused to accept the stats you referenced could be wrong.

You want whites to be racist, it's a path to free government cheese. I don't have an agenda. I just realize this country is about as non-racist as there is in human history, and you see racism all around you. But only from whites. It's an obvious political agenda for you on behalf of the Democrat party. And you're such a partisan shill you don't see it's starting to work against you because you're so blinded by partisan hatred

I don't "want" anyone to be racist. The fact is, racism is still prevalent. If you think this country is as non-racist as it has ever been in human history, you need to start reading REAL educational books that rely on REAL statistics and REAL studies.

If you see the United States today all as Alabama in the 50s, and you only see racism coming from whites, then yeah, you want us to be racists.

It's ironic you're criticizing a few people in the gun thread for extreme overreaction, then when the situation goes to race you hysterically overreact. Sure, racism exists. But that it's gotten worse instead of better and whites are the problem is just stupid, which is what you and the Democrat party are

 

[OODA_Loop]

that's exactly right.

and we've seen it

Which case ? Thanks.

 

[jillian]

Already a thread on this.
The guy was justified but I think he went to far.

What justified him pulling a gun on someone who wasn’t threatening him?

Getting assaulted?

the death penalty isn't a potential sentence for a misdemeanor. and the assailant was no longer a danger.

try again... this time with actual thought.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

that is the beauty of concealed carry

True. And people who initiate aggression to kill people if they respond is the downside of CC

still have not proved that yet have ya

Go to the one minute mark of the video and watch the next 20 seconds

so you are saying you still can not offer any real proof and resort to that same lame response

Tell me what happens at the one minute mark of the video. What I said is clear and you're full of shit.

And BTW, it's moronic to go on message boards and tell people to STFU unless they can provide "proof."

I provided a damned good argument though. I just got tired of repeating it. So if you want to be intentionally dumb, work for it.

What happens at the one minute mark of the video, then I'll help you see the direct relevance of it to my argument

At the one minute mark a reporter was talking to a store clerk.

 

[jillian]

that's exactly right.

and we've seen it

Which case ? Thanks.

hahahahahahahahahaha

 

[kaz]

So you are saying if a guy with a gun was standing outside the car your wife and kids are sitting in and yelling at them, you'd not do anything about it?

If he was just yelling?

I would have ignored him

If he put his hands on them or tried to open the car doors that's a different story

You'd ignore some nutcase yelling at your family for where you parked, but if he touched you, you'd waste him. I'd say that's a good argument, but wow, it's not

Whats so hard to understand? Yelling you leave,manhandling they get shot.

How do you just leave when he's screaming at your wife with your kids there over where you parked?

I hope you're never in that situation because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I haven't either, and hope I never will be.

But the murderer staged a situation by being armed and initiating aggression and repeating it until he got what he wanted

So you would immediately attack someone who is yelling at your wife?

Strawman

I wouldnt. At the most I would place myself between the guy and my Wife and Kids and try and find out what the problem was.
But if he was standing five foot from the car I'd just get in and leave.
For all I know he's armed. And the most important thing is to get my family as far away as possible from a bad situation.
I mean I dont know about you but the last thing I want is gun play around my family.

Oh...and I have been in a situation like that.
Had three would be home invaders...and no I didnt shoot them.
All they needed to see was that sawed off 870 come into view around the door jam.
I couldnt bring myself to shoot em in the back as they ran away.

Maybe Markeis would be alive today had he ran away.
Of course he would have left his girl and kids in a bad situation....but then thats why you try to avoid conflict when you have loved ones in harms way.

And yet you completely didn't address my point that the shooter staged a scenario, initiated the aggression and repeated it until he got the shooting he wanted. Nothing you said addresses any part of my point

 

[kaz]

I sure as fuck wouldnt assault him!!!
Thats a good way to get shot.......oh wait.

that is the beauty of concealed carry

True. And people who initiate aggression to kill people if they respond is the downside of CC

still have not proved that yet have ya

Go to the one minute mark of the video and watch the next 20 seconds

You keep parroting the same question and ignoring the answer, then you complain you keep getting the same answer, LOL

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

If he was just yelling?

I would have ignored him

If he put his hands on them or tried to open the car doors that's a different story

You'd ignore some nutcase yelling at your family for where you parked, but if he touched you, you'd waste him. I'd say that's a good argument, but wow, it's not

Whats so hard to understand? Yelling you leave,manhandling they get shot.

How do you just leave when he's screaming at your wife with your kids there over where you parked?

I hope you're never in that situation because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I haven't either, and hope I never will be.

But the murderer staged a situation by being armed and initiating aggression and repeating it until he got what he wanted

So you would immediately attack someone who is yelling at your wife?

Strawman

I wouldnt. At the most I would place myself between the guy and my Wife and Kids and try and find out what the problem was.
But if he was standing five foot from the car I'd just get in and leave.
For all I know he's armed. And the most important thing is to get my family as far away as possible from a bad situation.
I mean I dont know about you but the last thing I want is gun play around my family.

Oh...and I have been in a situation like that.
Had three would be home invaders...and no I didnt shoot them.
All they needed to see was that sawed off 870 come into view around the door jam.
I couldnt bring myself to shoot em in the back as they ran away.

Maybe Markeis would be alive today had he ran away.
Of course he would have left his girl and kids in a bad situation....but then thats why you try to avoid conflict when you have loved ones in harms way.

And yet you completely didn't address my point that the shooter staged a scenario, initiated the aggression and repeated it until he got the shooting he wanted. Nothing you said addresses any part of my point

Funny...he's never shot someone before.

 

[kaz]

True. And people who initiate aggression to kill people if they respond is the downside of CC

still have not proved that yet have ya

Go to the one minute mark of the video and watch the next 20 seconds

so you are saying you still can not offer any real proof and resort to that same lame response

Tell me what happens at the one minute mark of the video. What I said is clear and you're full of shit.

And BTW, it's moronic to go on message boards and tell people to STFU unless they can provide "proof."

I provided a damned good argument though. I just got tired of repeating it. So if you want to be intentionally dumb, work for it.

What happens at the one minute mark of the video, then I'll help you see the direct relevance of it to my argument

At the one minute mark a reporter was talking to a store clerk.

And what does the store clerk say?

 

[kaz]

You'd ignore some nutcase yelling at your family for where you parked, but if he touched you, you'd waste him. I'd say that's a good argument, but wow, it's not

Whats so hard to understand? Yelling you leave,manhandling they get shot.

How do you just leave when he's screaming at your wife with your kids there over where you parked?

I hope you're never in that situation because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I haven't either, and hope I never will be.

But the murderer staged a situation by being armed and initiating aggression and repeating it until he got what he wanted

So you would immediately attack someone who is yelling at your wife?

Strawman

I wouldnt. At the most I would place myself between the guy and my Wife and Kids and try and find out what the problem was.
But if he was standing five foot from the car I'd just get in and leave.
For all I know he's armed. And the most important thing is to get my family as far away as possible from a bad situation.
I mean I dont know about you but the last thing I want is gun play around my family.

Oh...and I have been in a situation like that.
Had three would be home invaders...and no I didnt shoot them.
All they needed to see was that sawed off 870 come into view around the door jam.
I couldnt bring myself to shoot em in the back as they ran away.

Maybe Markeis would be alive today had he ran away.
Of course he would have left his girl and kids in a bad situation....but then thats why you try to avoid conflict when you have loved ones in harms way.

And yet you completely didn't address my point that the shooter staged a scenario, initiated the aggression and repeated it until he got the shooting he wanted. Nothing you said addresses any part of my point

Funny...he's never shot someone before.

And?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

still have not proved that yet have ya

Go to the one minute mark of the video and watch the next 20 seconds

so you are saying you still can not offer any real proof and resort to that same lame response

Tell me what happens at the one minute mark of the video. What I said is clear and you're full of shit.

And BTW, it's moronic to go on message boards and tell people to STFU unless they can provide "proof."

I provided a damned good argument though. I just got tired of repeating it. So if you want to be intentionally dumb, work for it.

What happens at the one minute mark of the video, then I'll help you see the direct relevance of it to my argument

At the one minute mark a reporter was talking to a store clerk.

And what does the store clerk say?

What does that matter?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Whats so hard to understand? Yelling you leave,manhandling they get shot.

How do you just leave when he's screaming at your wife with your kids there over where you parked?

I hope you're never in that situation because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I haven't either, and hope I never will be.

But the murderer staged a situation by being armed and initiating aggression and repeating it until he got what he wanted

So you would immediately attack someone who is yelling at your wife?

Strawman

I wouldnt. At the most I would place myself between the guy and my Wife and Kids and try and find out what the problem was.
But if he was standing five foot from the car I'd just get in and leave.
For all I know he's armed. And the most important thing is to get my family as far away as possible from a bad situation.
I mean I dont know about you but the last thing I want is gun play around my family.

Oh...and I have been in a situation like that.
Had three would be home invaders...and no I didnt shoot them.
All they needed to see was that sawed off 870 come into view around the door jam.
I couldnt bring myself to shoot em in the back as they ran away.

Maybe Markeis would be alive today had he ran away.
Of course he would have left his girl and kids in a bad situation....but then thats why you try to avoid conflict when you have loved ones in harms way.

And yet you completely didn't address my point that the shooter staged a scenario, initiated the aggression and repeated it until he got the shooting he wanted. Nothing you said addresses any part of my point

Funny...he's never shot someone before.

And?

So he just decided out of the blue to shoot someone?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

If he was just yelling?

I would have ignored him

If he put his hands on them or tried to open the car doors that's a different story

You'd ignore some nutcase yelling at your family for where you parked, but if he touched you, you'd waste him. I'd say that's a good argument, but wow, it's not

Whats so hard to understand? Yelling you leave,manhandling they get shot.

How do you just leave when he's screaming at your wife with your kids there over where you parked?

I hope you're never in that situation because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I haven't either, and hope I never will be.

But the murderer staged a situation by being armed and initiating aggression and repeating it until he got what he wanted

So you would immediately attack someone who is yelling at your wife?

Strawman

I wouldnt. At the most I would place myself between the guy and my Wife and Kids and try and find out what the problem was.
But if he was standing five foot from the car I'd just get in and leave.
For all I know he's armed. And the most important thing is to get my family as far away as possible from a bad situation.
I mean I dont know about you but the last thing I want is gun play around my family.

Oh...and I have been in a situation like that.
Had three would be home invaders...and no I didnt shoot them.
All they needed to see was that sawed off 870 come into view around the door jam.
I couldnt bring myself to shoot em in the back as they ran away.

Maybe Markeis would be alive today had he ran away.
Of course he would have left his girl and kids in a bad situation....but then thats why you try to avoid conflict when you have loved ones in harms way.

And yet you completely didn't address my point that the shooter staged a scenario, initiated the aggression and repeated it until he got the shooting he wanted. Nothing you said addresses any part of my point

I find it interesting that you start shit with someone while your wife and kids were present.
Real fuken smart.

 

[Lewdog]

Holy shit man. I NEVER SAID THAT. The 8th Amendment limits ALL COURTS, federal, state, and local from doling out cruel and unusual punishment. It is extended from the Federal government to the states through the 14th Amendment.

Right, but that isn't the point you made. You argued that it violated the Constitution because he was shot. The government did not shoot him. That's just stupid

No I didn't. I was arguing with Skull Pilot because he said he didn't care that the guy got shot and killed just for a simple assault.

I asked if he supported the Constitution... which has the 8th Amendment that protects citizens from Cruel and Unusual punishment. I said if he supports that, then he should care that the guy was shot and killed for simple assault. Not because the 8th Amendment protects him for that, but because they share the same principle. They aren't the same, nor does the 8th Amendment cover it, but they follow the same principle, so saying you agree with the rights the 8th Amendment gives, but then saying you don't think it is a fair principle in other parts of society is being a hypocrite.

Of course they don't share the same principle. No one ever said or meant that the Constitution should dictate interactions between citizens. It's about dictating to government how it will treat it's citizens. It's a limit on government power.

For example, government cannot restrict free speech. However, you can shit can your employees for what they say, break of with your wife, disavow your friends, criticize them on television. No one ever thought or meant that you have free speech from the consequences of other citizens. It's a horrible argument

What the fuck do you mean they don't share the same principle? It's pretty simple. In a fair world, when someone does something wrong, the punishment they receive should be equal to the severity of the wrongdoing. The founders of this country knew that, that's why they wrote the 8th Amendment... however until the civil war the Federal government did not hold precedence over the way the states took care of things. Thus why AFTER the civil war they created the 13th, 14th, and the 15th Amendments that were referred to as the Reconstruction Amendments. The 13th outlawed slavery, the 14th created due process that extended the power of the Bill of Rights and Constitution to the state level, and the 15th Amendment which extended voting rights.

I said it has nothing to do with the Constitution. You shouldn't have pulled the Constitution into your point. The Constitution is not written to dictate actions between citizens, and it isn't a power for the Federal government to regulate interaction between citizens. The Constitution is a document that limits Federal power. You blew up your point by using the Constitution wrong

I brought it up for a specific reason and was VERY clear it had nothing to do with one citizen over another. Many Trump supporters brag about how important the rights given to people through the Constitution are. Well if you are against cruel and unusual punishment from the government, then it is hypocritical to say that when there is an incident between two citizens it is ok for one citizen to KILL the other over something as small as pushing them to the ground.

 

[Lewdog]

I don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about. First, I'm not a Democrat. Secondly I'm not for disarming honest citizens.

I'm for common sense laws like not letting fucking people like those getting Federal disability for a mental condition being allowed to buy guns for one... which was the VERY first executive order Trump signed when he became President.

Lewdog: "I'm not a Democrat"

You gave up the right to that lie when you took up race whoring on their behalf. No one is so inanely stupid that you'd believe this country has become stereotypical Alabama in the fifties. You have to be a partisan sheep to believe that. Give up the lie now that you've clearly established what you are

Race whoring? Sorry when I see the facts, it's not whoring. I'll send you several books proving it, but I no you wouldn't read them. I've shared stats with you that show 61% of murders in the U.S. in 2016 didn't even get solved, so they had no idea what the demographic of the killer was. Yet you refused to accept the stats you referenced could be wrong.

You want whites to be racist, it's a path to free government cheese. I don't have an agenda. I just realize this country is about as non-racist as there is in human history, and you see racism all around you. But only from whites. It's an obvious political agenda for you on behalf of the Democrat party. And you're such a partisan shill you don't see it's starting to work against you because you're so blinded by partisan hatred

I don't "want" anyone to be racist. The fact is, racism is still prevalent. If you think this country is as non-racist as it has ever been in human history, you need to start reading REAL educational books that rely on REAL statistics and REAL studies.

If you see the United States today all as Alabama in the 50s, and you only see racism coming from whites, then yeah, you want us to be racists.

It's ironic you're criticizing a few people in the gun thread for extreme overreaction, then when the situation goes to race you hysterically overreact. Sure, racism exists. But that it's gotten worse instead of better and whites are the problem is just stupid, which is what you and the Democrat party are

When did I say there is only racism coming from whites? Again, if you REALLY want to learn how wrong some of your views about racism being the best it has ever been, I'll loan you some top selling books from VERY respectable authors.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Well if you are against cruel and unusual punishment from the government, then it is hypocritical to say that when there is an incident between two citizens it is ok for one citizen to KILL the other over something as small as pushing them to the ground.

Except pushing someone violently to the paved ground can and has killed people.

 

[Lewdog]

Well if you are against cruel and unusual punishment from the government, then it is hypocritical to say that when there is an incident between two citizens it is ok for one citizen to KILL the other over something as small as pushing them to the ground.

Except pushing someone violently to the paved ground can and has killed people.

Let's try to make this clear to you for umpteenth time. Stand your ground law only allows someone to shoot someone if they feel their life is in imminent danger. When the man shot him, the victim was 7-10 feet AWAY from the shooter and backing up. He was not within range to do anymore to him, and is unarmed.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Let's try to make this clear to you for umpteenth time. Stand your ground law only allows someone to shoot someone if they feel their life is in imminent danger. When the man shot him, the victim was 7-10 feet AWAY from the shooter and backing up. He was not within range to do anymore to him, and is unarmed.

He was in range to finish the attack and square to the shooter.