Kill The Profit Motive And You Kill Modern Medical Advances And Prosperity

[The Rabbi]

It's gotten pretty damn obvious why there is a constant rise in healthcare costs. The healthcare industry's bureaucracy rivals the US government, Americans can't take care of themselves and are fat and prone to disease, the insured are paying for the uninsured healthcare treatment via high healthcare costs passed on through higher insurance premiums, defensive medicine is over used thus adding to the tab, the list goes on and on.
The bottomline,,,the well is running dry. Economist know this and have warned us about this.
So where should the monies come from for medical advancement? I don't know, maybe healthcare companies can spend more on R & D and less on their thousands of advertisements. I've read where companies spend more on marketing than they do for R & D!

Here you are assuming what you think I assume. Who do you think you are,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,? Carnac?

SO your solution to Americans' obesity, defensive medicine, large bureaucracies in medicine and government is to force companies to cut advertising? Seriously?

OMG! You really have issues with reading comprehension, don't you? I bet if you opened your mind up some, you're reading comprehension issue would go away.

:Let's see: You identify (correctly) large bureaucracy, obesity, third party payer system and medical malpractice as driving rising costs. The only solution I see in your post is reducing advertising and spending it on R&D. So I asked the logical question. Either you aren't explaining yourself terribly well or you just dont grasp the problem or dont have any solution. Which is it?

 

[bripat9643]

The story of his life and that he ripped up his contracts for the good of humanity.
I'm sure he was interested in money, but he wasn't anywhere near the ruthless, greedy fuck that Edison or Morgan were.
The majority of inventors aren't sharks, they are too wrapped up in their brilliance and originality to be obsessed with mere profit.
It's the backers of the inventors that usually toss the inventors under the bus.

The quotes below make it pretty clear that Tesla was interested in making money.

Nikola Tesla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a result of the "War of Currents," Edison and Westinghouse went nearly bankrupt. Edison had lost control of his company to J.P. Morgan, and Morgan was refusing to loan more money to Westinghouse due to the financial strain of the Tesla AC patents[82][83] (at that point Westinghouse had paid out an estimated $200,000 in licenses and royalties to Tesla, Brown, and Peck[84]).

So?
Morgan threatened to bog Tesla down in lawsuits.
Tesla ripped us his contracts, which he didn't HAVE to do and which Morgan and Edison, the Lawsuit Twins, would NEVER have done.

Morgan and Edison being scumbags isn't the issue.
THEY would have tossed their inventions in the trash if they couldn't make money.

What the quotes make quite clear is that Tesla wanted to get paid, he tried to get paid, and he in fact did get paid quite a bit of money.

His biography doesn't mention a thing about him "ripping up his contracts."

 

[rdean]

If people don't have jobs or money, there is no profit motive.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Really? Do you think those who support breast cancer (or any kind of cancer cure for that matter) are motivated by greed?

I personally think (and maybe it's me being a Pollyanna), that those who are on the cutting edges of medical science are there because they want to better understand, or help their fellow human beings.

However.....................those who are motivated by greed are easy to see. How much does Cialis or Viagra do for humankind?

ask the millions of men around the world who now have a sex life because of those drugs....

 

[kiwiman127]

SO your solution to Americans' obesity, defensive medicine, large bureaucracies in medicine and government is to force companies to cut advertising? Seriously?

OMG! You really have issues with reading comprehension, don't you? I bet if you opened your mind up some, you're reading comprehension issue would go away.

:Let's see: You identify (correctly) large bureaucracy, obesity, third party payer system and medical malpractice as driving rising costs. The only solution I see in your post is reducing advertising and spending it on R&D. So I asked the logical question. Either you aren't explaining yourself terribly well or you just dont grasp the problem or dont have any solution. Which is it?

One more time. You asked where the money was going to come from as our citizens and businesses are getting tapped out by the cost of healthcare.
I stated that most/many healthcare companies (the innovators) should plan their finances better and direct more of their funding to R & D. It's their business decision.
Earlier, I pointed to the cost of healthcare discrepancies around the world compared to the cost of healthcare. Healthcare and pharmaceuticals are considerably cheaper worldwide than the US. Part of those higher prices goes towards R & D. The US consumer pays a much larger percentage for R & D. That's not right. What defense do you have for that?
Other countries negotiate with the healthcare sector on the costs for the goods and services. We don't. Medicare Part D is an example. The Bush Administration and the Republican Congress wouldn't allow the US government to negotiate drugs prices with the manufacturers. Then to get the pharmaceutical sectors backing for Obamacare, Obama and the Dems did the same exact thing. Just who were Bush, Obama and both parties looking out for, it's citizens or the pharma industry. These are part of the group you want the protection of their profit making ability.

 

[LogikAndReazon]

Its really just hope and change that matters....not profitable endeavours... Lol

 

[Indeependent]

The quotes below make it pretty clear that Tesla was interested in making money.

Nikola Tesla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So?
Morgan threatened to bog Tesla down in lawsuits.
Tesla ripped us his contracts, which he didn't HAVE to do and which Morgan and Edison, the Lawsuit Twins, would NEVER have done.

Morgan and Edison being scumbags isn't the issue.
THEY would have tossed their inventions in the trash if they couldn't make money.

What the quotes make quite clear is that Tesla wanted to get paid, he tried to get paid, and he in fact did get paid quite a bit of money.

His biography doesn't mention a thing about him "ripping up his contracts."

Tell that to Wikipedia.

 

[Political Junky]

ObamaCare is not Socialized Medicine. You're insured by private insurance companies and doctors and nurses are in private practice.

 

[Jarlaxle]

P.S.
I donate every year 10% of my income to the ACLU ... you all should too ...

I prefer to donate to the NRA, GOAL, and the Institute for Justice.

 

[bripat9643]

So?
Morgan threatened to bog Tesla down in lawsuits.
Tesla ripped us his contracts, which he didn't HAVE to do and which Morgan and Edison, the Lawsuit Twins, would NEVER have done.

Morgan and Edison being scumbags isn't the issue.
THEY would have tossed their inventions in the trash if they couldn't make money.

What the quotes make quite clear is that Tesla wanted to get paid, he tried to get paid, and he in fact did get paid quite a bit of money.

His biography doesn't mention a thing about him "ripping up his contracts."

Tell that to Wikipedia.

In other words, your claim is bullshit. You obviously can't support it.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Really? Do you think those who support breast cancer (or any kind of cancer cure for that matter) are motivated by greed?

I personally think (and maybe it's me being a Pollyanna), that those who are on the cutting edges of medical science are there because they want to better understand, or help their fellow human beings.

However.....................those who are motivated by greed are easy to see. How much does Cialis or Viagra do for humankind?

You are mostly correct.

It takes money to fund research. The ones doing the actual research are looking for ways to improve the quality of life, but to keep that money rolling in, there has to be profit for those risking millions in investments.

Socialist and communist leaders have virtually no understanding of human nature. I guess they don't believe other people feel the way they do. No one wants to be a slave and devote their lives to other people with nothing in return. Mother Theresa was the last one of that breed.

There is a reason why other world leaders, including those who come from countries with socialized medicine, come to our research hospitals for treatment. It's because the level of treatment isn't available in their own countries. They want to live, so they are able to obtain the quality of care not available to the people in their countries.

Many of our research hospitals will not accept Obamacare patients. It's not because they are greedy, but because they want to stay in business. Receiving payments that are less than the actual cost of care will bankrupt them.

Hospitals shouldn't be ashamed of making money any more than liberal actors should be ashamed of making millions per film. Making money is okay and not a crime.

Didn't a big shot politician from Canada (governor of a province, maybe?) go to Florida for major surgery about 6-7 years ago?

 

[Dutch]

Here's what worries me the most about Obamacare. Socialized medicine means the end of all new wonder drugs and miracle medical treatments. No more breakthroughs like artificial joints, MRI machines, artificial hearts, artificial livers, Leukemia cures, etc.. The profit motive is what brought these innovations into existence. Obamacare will put an end to it.

Redirector

One of the hallmarks of socialism is its hostility toward and targeting for elimination of the “bourgeoisie”–the prosperous middle class, who pose an existential threat to the socialists/statists, in large part due to their relative economic autonomy. The fact that they are mostly capable of self-sufficiency and of running their own lives means they neither need nor want big-government central-planners micromanaging their every decision, and therefore the middle class must be decimated by the likes of Obama–even while Obama and his Democrat fellow-travelers hypocritically, falsely speak of “protecting the middle class,” “fighting for the middle class,” and “growing the middle class” in their cynical ploy to get middle class people to vote for more doomed Democrat policies.

Fortunately, some of the biggest lies of Obama and his party have now been realized by millions to be what they are–outright lies.

What is yet unfortunate is that the socialists have still largely succeeded in convincing so many that it is the profit motive of capitalism which is to blame for the alleged awfulness of income inequality, and the alleged awfulness of various other disparate outcomes upon which envy and class-conflict are based, that they think it is a viable campaign strategy for the upcoming mid-term elections.

And so, it is the same old badmouthing and attempt to eliminate the profit motive, which Obama and his fellow travelers have deployed in their destruction of our health care system–the abject economic horror known as Obamacare.

Yet that same profit motive is what has given modern medicine and pharmacology such marvelous breakthroughs over the last several decades, which is and has been in Obama’s cross hairs all along.

Socialized medicine regimes only barely limp along in other Western, developed economies such as Canada, Sweden, and Great Britain, with just enough marginally-satisfied customers to keep their populations from revolt (not to mention that numerous dead and dying recipients of inferior medical care delivery really can’t make much of a political peep, can they now?) only because the profit motive has still been somewhat alive in America in order to drive the innovations enjoyed by patients in the more socialist countries–countries which ride along on the coattails of our advances and revolutionary medical developments!

It is mainly due to the existence of the remnants of capitalism, and the research, development, and marketing activities of extremely competitive, profit-seeking enterprises (mostly here in the United States and wherever making a profit is still allowed), which have produced the miracle drugs and the space-age, mind-boggling medical technologies enjoyed by citizens throughout not only the developed world, but increasingly throughout the emerging economies and the third-world, even more and more.​

Do some research on Jonas Salk.
On the polio vacinne when asked who owned the patent on the polio vaccine., "There is no patent. Can you patent the Sun.?"

 

[Jarlaxle]

I sure am glad no one told Nikola Tesla to only invent stuff out of a sense of greed.

What makes you think Tesla wasn't interested in making money?

Considering he died broke and deep in debt...he certainly wasn't very good at it.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I sure am glad no one told Nikola Tesla to only invent stuff out of a sense of greed.

What makes you think Tesla wasn't interested in making money?

He was. He just didn't live long enough.

He lived to be 86!

 

[bripat9643]

Here's what worries me the most about Obamacare. Socialized medicine means the end of all new wonder drugs and miracle medical treatments. No more breakthroughs like artificial joints, MRI machines, artificial hearts, artificial livers, Leukemia cures, etc.. The profit motive is what brought these innovations into existence. Obamacare will put an end to it.

Redirector

One of the hallmarks of socialism is its hostility toward and targeting for elimination of the “bourgeoisie”–the prosperous middle class, who pose an existential threat to the socialists/statists, in large part due to their relative economic autonomy. The fact that they are mostly capable of self-sufficiency and of running their own lives means they neither need nor want big-government central-planners micromanaging their every decision, and therefore the middle class must be decimated by the likes of Obama–even while Obama and his Democrat fellow-travelers hypocritically, falsely speak of “protecting the middle class,” “fighting for the middle class,” and “growing the middle class” in their cynical ploy to get middle class people to vote for more doomed Democrat policies.

Fortunately, some of the biggest lies of Obama and his party have now been realized by millions to be what they are–outright lies.

What is yet unfortunate is that the socialists have still largely succeeded in convincing so many that it is the profit motive of capitalism which is to blame for the alleged awfulness of income inequality, and the alleged awfulness of various other disparate outcomes upon which envy and class-conflict are based, that they think it is a viable campaign strategy for the upcoming mid-term elections.

And so, it is the same old badmouthing and attempt to eliminate the profit motive, which Obama and his fellow travelers have deployed in their destruction of our health care system–the abject economic horror known as Obamacare.

Yet that same profit motive is what has given modern medicine and pharmacology such marvelous breakthroughs over the last several decades, which is and has been in Obama’s cross hairs all along.

Socialized medicine regimes only barely limp along in other Western, developed economies such as Canada, Sweden, and Great Britain, with just enough marginally-satisfied customers to keep their populations from revolt (not to mention that numerous dead and dying recipients of inferior medical care delivery really can’t make much of a political peep, can they now?) only because the profit motive has still been somewhat alive in America in order to drive the innovations enjoyed by patients in the more socialist countries–countries which ride along on the coattails of our advances and revolutionary medical developments!

It is mainly due to the existence of the remnants of capitalism, and the research, development, and marketing activities of extremely competitive, profit-seeking enterprises (mostly here in the United States and wherever making a profit is still allowed), which have produced the miracle drugs and the space-age, mind-boggling medical technologies enjoyed by citizens throughout not only the developed world, but increasingly throughout the emerging economies and the third-world, even more and more.​

Do some research on Jonas Salk.
On the polio vacinne when asked who owned the patent on the polio vaccine., "There is no patent. Can you patent the Sun.?"

What does that prove? Almost all the latest cancer drugs are patented. CAT scanners are patented. MRI machines are patented. Artificial joints are patented. The artificial heart is patented. Pacemakers are patented. Every single machine and tool you see in an operating room is patented.

Jonas Salk had no right to patent the Polio vaccine since a private charity funded his research. They were the only ones who had the right to patent it.

 

[bripat9643]

Really? Do you think those who support breast cancer (or any kind of cancer cure for that matter) are motivated by greed?

I personally think (and maybe it's me being a Pollyanna), that those who are on the cutting edges of medical science are there because they want to better understand, or help their fellow human beings.

However.....................those who are motivated by greed are easy to see. How much does Cialis or Viagra do for humankind?

You are mostly correct.

It takes money to fund research. The ones doing the actual research are looking for ways to improve the quality of life, but to keep that money rolling in, there has to be profit for those risking millions in investments.

Socialist and communist leaders have virtually no understanding of human nature. I guess they don't believe other people feel the way they do. No one wants to be a slave and devote their lives to other people with nothing in return. Mother Theresa was the last one of that breed.

There is a reason why other world leaders, including those who come from countries with socialized medicine, come to our research hospitals for treatment. It's because the level of treatment isn't available in their own countries. They want to live, so they are able to obtain the quality of care not available to the people in their countries.

Many of our research hospitals will not accept Obamacare patients. It's not because they are greedy, but because they want to stay in business. Receiving payments that are less than the actual cost of care will bankrupt them.

Hospitals shouldn't be ashamed of making money any more than liberal actors should be ashamed of making millions per film. Making money is okay and not a crime.

Didn't a big shot politician from Canada (governor of a province, maybe?) go to Florida for major surgery about 6-7 years ago?

http://www.examiner.com/article/canadian-politician-chooses-american-health-care-system-for-surgery

Canadian politician chooses American health care system for surgery

Here is an eye opener for Obamacare proponents. The Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, Danny "Millions" Williams, left Canada on Monday to have heart surgery in the United States.

If socialized health care is such a great thing, why is one of their high ranking politicians opting out, in favor of a free market system. The answer is simple, quality. In true political fashion, what's good enough for the governed is not good enough for the governors.

The hospital chosen for this surgery has not been named, but it is a reasonable assumption he will have this procedure at the Cleveland Clinic, the number 1 ranking heart care facility in the country, as rated by US News and World Report.

It may be difficult to determine which vehicle may be his among all the rest of the vehicles bearing Canadian license plates in the parking lot.

Williams has been touted as a staunch supporter of government run, single payer health care, due to budget shortfalls, he made cuts to the health care system, including closing 3 facilities. He is also a far left politician, as evidenced by his "Anything but Conservatives" campaign against the Tories (Canadian equivalent of Republicans).

 

[Indeependent]

Here's what worries me the most about Obamacare. Socialized medicine means the end of all new wonder drugs and miracle medical treatments. No more breakthroughs like artificial joints, MRI machines, artificial hearts, artificial livers, Leukemia cures, etc.. The profit motive is what brought these innovations into existence. Obamacare will put an end to it.

Redirector

One of the hallmarks of socialism is its hostility toward and targeting for elimination of the “bourgeoisie”–the prosperous middle class, who pose an existential threat to the socialists/statists, in large part due to their relative economic autonomy. The fact that they are mostly capable of self-sufficiency and of running their own lives means they neither need nor want big-government central-planners micromanaging their every decision, and therefore the middle class must be decimated by the likes of Obama–even while Obama and his Democrat fellow-travelers hypocritically, falsely speak of “protecting the middle class,” “fighting for the middle class,” and “growing the middle class” in their cynical ploy to get middle class people to vote for more doomed Democrat policies.

Fortunately, some of the biggest lies of Obama and his party have now been realized by millions to be what they are–outright lies.

What is yet unfortunate is that the socialists have still largely succeeded in convincing so many that it is the profit motive of capitalism which is to blame for the alleged awfulness of income inequality, and the alleged awfulness of various other disparate outcomes upon which envy and class-conflict are based, that they think it is a viable campaign strategy for the upcoming mid-term elections.

And so, it is the same old badmouthing and attempt to eliminate the profit motive, which Obama and his fellow travelers have deployed in their destruction of our health care system–the abject economic horror known as Obamacare.

Yet that same profit motive is what has given modern medicine and pharmacology such marvelous breakthroughs over the last several decades, which is and has been in Obama’s cross hairs all along.

Socialized medicine regimes only barely limp along in other Western, developed economies such as Canada, Sweden, and Great Britain, with just enough marginally-satisfied customers to keep their populations from revolt (not to mention that numerous dead and dying recipients of inferior medical care delivery really can’t make much of a political peep, can they now?) only because the profit motive has still been somewhat alive in America in order to drive the innovations enjoyed by patients in the more socialist countries–countries which ride along on the coattails of our advances and revolutionary medical developments!

It is mainly due to the existence of the remnants of capitalism, and the research, development, and marketing activities of extremely competitive, profit-seeking enterprises (mostly here in the United States and wherever making a profit is still allowed), which have produced the miracle drugs and the space-age, mind-boggling medical technologies enjoyed by citizens throughout not only the developed world, but increasingly throughout the emerging economies and the third-world, even more and more.​

Do some research on Jonas Salk.
On the polio vacinne when asked who owned the patent on the polio vaccine., "There is no patent. Can you patent the Sun.?"

What does that prove? Almost all the latest cancer drugs are patented. CAT scanners are patented. MRI machines are patented. Artificial joints are patented. The artificial heart is patented. Pacemakers are patented. Every single machine and tool you see in an operating room is patented.

Jonas Salk had no right to patent the Polio vaccine since a private charity funded his research. They were the only ones who had the right to patent it.

What does your point, from the Business POV, have to do with the fact that "Genius will supposedly be discovered eventually"?

I hear all the time from Conservatives that "Inventors don't need multi-million dollars labs, all they need is a garage".
In fact, FoxNews tells us that all the time.
So does Limbaugh and Hannity.

Apparently, you are stating that they are incorrect.

I know you are a Libertarian and not a Conservative, so I would like your point of view on what appears be sound-bites.

 

[The Rabbi]

OMG! You really have issues with reading comprehension, don't you? I bet if you opened your mind up some, you're reading comprehension issue would go away.

:Let's see: You identify (correctly) large bureaucracy, obesity, third party payer system and medical malpractice as driving rising costs. The only solution I see in your post is reducing advertising and spending it on R&D. So I asked the logical question. Either you aren't explaining yourself terribly well or you just dont grasp the problem or dont have any solution. Which is it?

One more time. You asked where the money was going to come from as our citizens and businesses are getting tapped out by the cost of healthcare.
I stated that most/many healthcare companies (the innovators) should plan their finances better and direct more of their funding to R & D. It's their business decision.
Earlier, I pointed to the cost of healthcare discrepancies around the world compared to the cost of healthcare. Healthcare and pharmaceuticals are considerably cheaper worldwide than the US. Part of those higher prices goes towards R & D. The US consumer pays a much larger percentage for R & D. That's not right. What defense do you have for that?
Other countries negotiate with the healthcare sector on the costs for the goods and services. We don't. Medicare Part D is an example. The Bush Administration and the Republican Congress wouldn't allow the US government to negotiate drugs prices with the manufacturers. Then to get the pharmaceutical sectors backing for Obamacare, Obama and the Dems did the same exact thing. Just who were Bush, Obama and both parties looking out for, it's citizens or the pharma industry. These are part of the group you want the protection of their profit making ability.

It isnt that US consumers are paying more, it is that foreign consumers are paying less. Their gov't caps prices on pharmaceuticals, making them marginally profitable. Since the US does not cap prices, prices are higher here.
There are two alternatives really: 1) The U.S. does what other countries do and cap prices for pharmaceuticals. 2) Something else.
The cost of doing 1) is that there is no profit incentive to develop drugs anymore and 20 years from now we will have the same drugs we have today.
As for 2), we could put pressure on other countries to pay more for their drugs. Or we could extend patent periods for drugs and strengthen patent laws. The period was shortened about 10 years ago, in yett another bone headed move by politicians looking to give constituents a free lunch. The problem is instead of recapturing costs over 7 years, as had been the case, they had to be recaptured in 5 years, raising prices in the short term for cutting edge drugs.
Even so, advertising hardly amounts to a major expenditure for drug companies. Merk spent under $1B last year for advertising. That sounds like a lot but not in the overall context of health care, which is a multi trillion dollar market.

 

[The Rabbi]

Do some research on Jonas Salk.
On the polio vacinne when asked who owned the patent on the polio vaccine., "There is no patent. Can you patent the Sun.?"

What does that prove? Almost all the latest cancer drugs are patented. CAT scanners are patented. MRI machines are patented. Artificial joints are patented. The artificial heart is patented. Pacemakers are patented. Every single machine and tool you see in an operating room is patented.

Jonas Salk had no right to patent the Polio vaccine since a private charity funded his research. They were the only ones who had the right to patent it.

What does your point, from the Business POV, have to do with the fact that "Genius will supposedly be discovered eventually"?

I hear all the time from Conservatives that "Inventors don't need multi-million dollars labs, all they need is a garage".
In fact, FoxNews tells us that all the time.
So does Limbaugh and Hannity.

Apparently, you are stating that they are incorrect.

I know you are a Libertarian and not a Conservative, so I would like your point of view on what appears be sound-bites.

Please quote anyone saying inventors dont need multi million dollar labs. ANother fact you made up out of thin air.

 

[Jarlaxle]

You are mostly correct.

It takes money to fund research. The ones doing the actual research are looking for ways to improve the quality of life, but to keep that money rolling in, there has to be profit for those risking millions in investments.

Socialist and communist leaders have virtually no understanding of human nature. I guess they don't believe other people feel the way they do. No one wants to be a slave and devote their lives to other people with nothing in return. Mother Theresa was the last one of that breed.

There is a reason why other world leaders, including those who come from countries with socialized medicine, come to our research hospitals for treatment. It's because the level of treatment isn't available in their own countries. They want to live, so they are able to obtain the quality of care not available to the people in their countries.

Many of our research hospitals will not accept Obamacare patients. It's not because they are greedy, but because they want to stay in business. Receiving payments that are less than the actual cost of care will bankrupt them.

Hospitals shouldn't be ashamed of making money any more than liberal actors should be ashamed of making millions per film. Making money is okay and not a crime.

Didn't a big shot politician from Canada (governor of a province, maybe?) go to Florida for major surgery about 6-7 years ago?

Canadian politician chooses American health care system for surgery - Youngstown Trumbull County Conservative | Examiner.com

Canadian politician chooses American health care system for surgery

Here is an eye opener for Obamacare proponents. The Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, Danny "Millions" Williams, left Canada on Monday to have heart surgery in the United States.

If socialized health care is such a great thing, why is one of their high ranking politicians opting out, in favor of a free market system. The answer is simple, quality. In true political fashion, what's good enough for the governed is not good enough for the governors.

The hospital chosen for this surgery has not been named, but it is a reasonable assumption he will have this procedure at the Cleveland Clinic, the number 1 ranking heart care facility in the country, as rated by US News and World Report.

It may be difficult to determine which vehicle may be his among all the rest of the vehicles bearing Canadian license plates in the parking lot.

Williams has been touted as a staunch supporter of government run, single payer health care, due to budget shortfalls, he made cuts to the health care system, including closing 3 facilities. He is also a far left politician, as evidenced by his "Anything but Conservatives" campaign against the Tories (Canadian equivalent of Republicans).

THAT'S THE ONE!

thank you.