Zone1 Let's Talk About "Merit"

[JoeB131]

Why should we keep wasting money in efforts that have always failed, when there is no evidence that anything will be successful?

Because winners never quit.

If something doesn't work, then you try something else. You never start from the premise that a thing cannot be done.

Now, there's a whole list of education reforms I would impose if I were in charge that would probably make left and right unhappy. But that's not the topic of this thread.

The topic of this thread is black kids who got a high enough GPA and SAT to be considered for Harvard. These kids need to be lionized, so that more people will want to emulate them. Just like Michael Jordan made kids want to be basketball stars and a whole slew of entertainers made them want to be musicians. Reward a behavior, it will be emulated.

 

[justoffal]

That’s calling me racist, and disallowed.

And saying that admissions should be race-blind isn’t excluding blacks from equal opportunity. To the contrary, when Affirmative Action is ruled unconstitutional, whites will have equal opportunity - and not be discriminated against due to their skin color.

Don't worry he calls everyone racist pretty much. For him racism exists under every Rock and behind every closed door.

 

[JoeB131]

If the previous precedent was not based on the Constitution then it's the wrong precedent. You seem to be forgetting that the job of scoutus is to enforce the Constitution. If you say the Constitution is racist well that's another issue. Real question here is whether or not race should be a considered Factor in college admissions. Strictly constitutionally speaking it should not be. Should the college or institution decide to turn down all government help then perhaps they can continue to consider race without any consequences.

The problem is the government goes to these elite institutions to solve certain problems, such as research and development. if you really want academia free of government interference (and changing priorities with each election) then they should treat academic work as just another service.

 

[justoffal]

The topic of this thread is black kids who got a high enough GPA and SAT to be considered for Harvard. These kids need to be lionized, so that more people will want to emulate them. Just like Michael Jordan made kids want to be basketball stars and a whole slew of entertainers made them want to be musicians.

Hmm that is a remarkably narrow social view point from the standpoint of what you claim is equity and fairness.
That comment absolutely highlights the importance of the upcoming SCOTUS decision. The Higher education system is not available to someone's private predilections for social sculpting...
Regardless of your perceptions of social inequity ... Your solution seems to make it okay for social inequity to exist for everyone else. You're punishing the sons for the sins of the father. Not cool.

Jo

 

[JoeB131]

Hmm that is a remarkably narrow social view point from the standpoint of what you claim is equity and fairness.
That comment absolutely highlights the importance of the upcoming SCOTUS decision. The Higher education system is not available to someone's private predilections for social sculpting...
Regardless of your perceptions of social inequity ... Your solution seems to make it okay but social inequity exists for everyone else. You're punishing the sons for the sins of the father. Not cool.

Um, it's the topic of this thread, I'm trying to avoid going through the whole raft of 400 years of racial inequities.

The upcoming SCOTUS decision just shows the folly of letting Trump outsource justice selection to the Heritage Foundation. They are perfectly willing to throw out precedents that have worked for years (Bakke, Roe, etc.) in order to achieve their goals.

Again, I'm a realist. You've had 400 years of white privilege in this country. A few years of Affirmative Action isn't going to fix that.

 

[Hector12]

Because winners never quit.

If something doesn't work, then you try something else. You never start from the premise that a thing cannot be done.

A long list of failed efforts to bring most blacks up to the standards of most whites should be enough to keep the government from wasting more tax money on this failed quest.

Those who still want to try to close the race gap should use their own money. I suggest Black Lives Matter spend its money this way, rather than buying mansions for BLM leading officials.

 

[AZrailwhale]

NCLB was a farce from the start. Head Start was never sufficiently funded and was never aimed at black people specifically.



Celebrated by who, you? I'm sure you'd love to come up with new ways to avenge yourself on Jamal, but the reality is that the SAT was developed by a racist. The problem with SAT's is that white folks can afford to pay tutors 30-50 bucks an hour to make sure their kids know which multiple choice to pick.

Why should HeadStart be aimed at Black people rather than ALL poor people? Should only Black children be eligible for free school lunches?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Because winners never quit.

If something doesn't work, then you try something else. You never start from the premise that a thing cannot be done.

Now, there's a whole list of education reforms I would impose if I were in charge that would probably make left and right unhappy. But that's not the topic of this thread.

The topic of this thread is black kids who got a high enough GPA and SAT to be considered for Harvard. These kids need to be lionized, so that more people will want to emulate them. Just like Michael Jordan made kids want to be basketball stars and a whole slew of entertainers made them want to be musicians. Reward a behavior, it will be emulated.

Winners also never reinforce failure. If they fail, they try something different.

 

[Lisa558]

Why should HeadStart be aimed at Black people rather than ALL poor people? Should only Black children be eligible for free school lunches?

I hear that argument a lot. Whenever anyone brings up all the benefits Black people get to help them out of poverty and into the middle class - TANF, food stamps, Medicaid, subsidized housing, Pell Grants for career training, etc. - they always complain that poor whites get it too. They want something that EXCLUDES poor whites and is available only to them.

 

[JoeB131]

A long list of failed efforts to bring most blacks up to the standards of most whites should be enough to keep the government from wasting more tax money on this failed quest.

Okay. Name them. Excluded are any programs that also benefited poor white people.

GO!

Those who still want to try to close the race gap should use their own money. I suggest Black Lives Matter spend its money this way, rather than buying mansions for BLM leading officials.

Okay, as soon as we all stop spending money on white middle class entitlements, which we spend far more on than helping poor black people. Of course, poor white people benefited from welfare before black people were even allowed to sign up, such as ADC (which eventually became TANF).

Winners also never reinforce failure. If they fail, they try something different.

I'm all for trying something different. What I am not for is saying, "Well, black people are inferior because of alleles or something, and I'm still mad at Jamal from High School, so I repeat garbage from racist websites like they are real." Which is pretty much the essense of all Hector's posts.

 

[JoeB131]

I hear that argument a lot. Whenever anyone brings up all the benefits Black people get to help them out of poverty and into the middle class - TANF, food stamps, Medicaid, subsidized housing, Pell Grants for career training, etc. - they always complain that poor whites get it too. They want something that EXCLUDES poor whites and is available only to them.

Um, okay. Let's look at that. = Let's look at total spending on poverty programs (that mostly benefit white folks).

TANF - 16.5 Billion
SNAP - 113 billion
Section 8 - 30 billion
Pell Grants - 24.6 Billion.
Head Start - 12 Billion

Wow. Sounds like a lot, right?

Well, no, not really. Not compared to the spending we do on Middle Class Entitlements. Which do mostly benefit middle class white folks who frankly should have prepared better, right?

Social Security - 1,200 Billion.
Medicare - $900 Billion
Unemployment - Peaked at 150 Billion in 2020, but runs about 20 billion because unemployment is so crazy low right now.
Veterans Benefits - $272 Billion

 

[Hector12]

Okay. Name them. Excluded are any programs that also benefited poor white people.

GO!

The programs benefited no one because they ignored the growing importance of IQ.

 

[Hector12]

Okay, as soon as we all stop spending money on white middle class entitlements, which we spend far more on than helping poor black people. Of course, poor white people benefited from welfare before black people were even allowed to sign up, such as ADC (which eventually became TANF).

Middle class white people pay taxes. We have the right to expect the government we pay for to advance our interests, and not the interests of the congenitally unemployable.

 

[Hector12]

I'm all for trying something different. What I am not for is saying, "Well, black people are inferior because of alleles or something, and I'm still mad at Jamal from High School, so I repeat garbage from racist websites like they are real." Which is pretty much the essense of all Hector's posts.

Try it with your own money. Gene alleles matter. In his theories Charles Darwin emphasized the importance of inherited differences, not acquired differences.

The "racist websites I quote include the United States Department of Justice,

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

and the College Board.

SAT and ACT Scores by Race/Ethnicity

SAT and ACT Scores broken down by Race/Ethnicity.

www.blackexcel.org

Jamal is a creation of your twisted imagination. Nevertheless, there is ghetto garbage like Jamal. No self respecting white or Oriental woman wants to be in the same room with the real Jamal's of the world.

 

[JoeB131]

The programs benefited no one because they ignored the growing importance of IQ.

So duly noted you could not name one program that was set up for black people exclusively that failed. If they failed poor whites as well as poor blacks, that shows the programs were ineffective, not the people they were meant to help.

Middle class white people pay taxes. We have the right to expect the government we pay for to advance our interests, and not the interests of the congenitally unemployable.

Oh, bullshit. Half of what is paid into Social Security and Medicare is paid by employers, not the participant (except the self-employed). If you live to be 72, you'd have gotten everything you ever paid into SS back. You'll get back everything you paid into Medicare if you have one serious illness. The reason why these programs are going broke is they were conceived when most people didn't live to be 65. Now the average life expectancy is pushing up against 80.

Unemployment. Your employer (not you) is only paying $700 a year into that. You'll blow through that if you are unemployed for a month.

Veteran's benefits... heck, I'm all for those for guys who actually served in combat, but the vast majority of vets are like myself... never got anywhere near a testy foreigner. (Note, the only veteran's benefit I've availed myself of so far is a VA loan for my previous home.)

Try it with your own money. Gene alleles matter. In his theories Charles Darwin emphasized the importance of inherited differences, not acquired differences.

Charles Darwin was a racist. You could even call him the OG Racist. Sadly, he started a long history of white people trying to use genetic lies to rationalize their racism.

Jamal is a creation of your twisted imagination. Nevertheless, there is ghetto garbage like Jamal. No self respecting white or Oriental woman wants to be in the same room with the real Jamal's of the world.

Well, gee, I would hope that a rug wouldn't want to date anyone.
But to the point, if white women weren't trying to get with black men, the old Southern Racists wouldn't have passed miscengation laws.

 

[Lisa558]

Um, okay. Let's look at that. = Let's look at total spending on poverty programs (that mostly benefit white folks).

TANF - 16.5 Billion
SNAP - 113 billion
Section 8 - 30 billion
Pell Grants - 24.6 Billion.
Head Start - 12 Billion

Wow. Sounds like a lot, right?

Well, no, not really. Not compared to the spending we do on Middle Class Entitlements. Which do mostly benefit middle class white folks who frankly should have prepared better, right?

Social Security - 1,200 Billion.
Medicare - $900 Billion
Unemployment - Peaked at 150 Billion in 2020, but runs about 20 billion because unemployment is so crazy low right now.
Veterans Benefits - $272 Billion

The first grouping is pure handouts.

The second grouping is earned via work.

 

[Hector12]

So duly noted you could not name one program that was set up for black people exclusively that failed. If they failed poor whites as well as poor blacks, that shows the programs were ineffective, not the people they were meant to help.

You are mistaken. The failure of the programs demonstrate that there is no substitute for a reasonably high IQ. No program exists that can permanently and substantially raise a low or even a moderate IQ.

 

[Hector12]

Charles Darwin was a racist. You could even call him the OG Racist. Sadly, he started a long history of white people trying to use genetic lies to rationalize their racism.

What did Charles Darwin say that is not true? Darwin was sympathetic toward Negroes but he recognized that most of them were less intelligent than most whites.

Where is there evidence of intrinsic racial equality? Why should we assume that the races, which look so different, are identical in intellectual ability, especially when there is so much evidence that they are not equal in average intelligence?

 

[Lisa558]

Okay, as soon as we all stop spending money on white middle class entitlements, which we spend far more on than helping poor black people. Of course, poor white people benefited from welfare before black people were even allowed to sign up, such as ADC (which eventually became TANF).

Why should white middle class people, who worked for 40 years and are now entitled to Medicare and Social Security, have to give that up to give MORE money to black people who keep having children they can’t afford?

I'm all for trying something different. What I am not for is saying, "Well, black people are inferior because of alleles or something, and I'm still mad at Jamal from High School, so I repeat garbage from racist websites like they are real." Which is pretty much the essense of all Hector's posts.

What “different” thing can we try that does NOT involve taking MORE money from the white middle class and handing it over to blacks for doing nothing other than being black?

 

[Hector12]

What I am not for is saying, "Well, black people are inferior because of alleles or something, and I'm still mad at Jamal from High School, so I repeat garbage from racist websites like they are real." Which is pretty much the essense of all Hector's posts.

If Jamal really existed and attended my high school he would have taken special education classes for people with IQ's below 75, so we never would have known each other.