MI makes female genital mutilation a 15 yr felony. Circumcision still legal

[Compost]

Detroit emergency room physician Jumana Nagarwala, 44, was arrested April 12 and is currently in jail awaiting trial after a federal judge deemed her a flight risk and a threat to the community.
The three defendants belong to a "religious and cultural community" that investigators allege practices female genital mutilation on young girls -- a painful surgical procedure to remove part of the clitoris or clitoral hood to suppress female sexuality.
During a court hearing April 17, Nagarwala's defense attorney, Shannon Smith, told a judge the procedure did not involve cutting and was religious in nature, CNN affiliate WXYZ reported.
Smith argued the procedure is practiced by the Dawoodi Bohra, an Islamic sect based in India, and that the clinic was used to keep procedures sterile, WXYZ reported.
The Detroit Free Press reported from the hearing that Smith said her client removed membrane from the girls' genital area using a "scraper" as part of a religious practice. The girls' parents would then bury the membrane in the ground in accordance with their religious custom, Smith said, according to the Free Press account.

Michigan doctors charged in genital mutilation case - CNN.com

Hey, anybody can claim "religious ritual" to try to get off the hook. Doesn't make it magically retroactively appear in the history books.

Again, consider the source. This is the same argument that tries to say "Hitler was a socialist because that was the name of the party and Hitler would never lie".

>> . The practice predates Christianity and Islam... The accounts of historian Pietro Bembo, posthumously published in 1550, reported that most likely FC originated in Egypt and the Nile valley, then spread out to the Red Sea coastal tribes with Arab traders, and then spread into eastern Sudan”.
[4a]

Islam Watch, in an article dated 6 July 2007, reported: ”As a cultural practice, FGM has probably been in existence for thousands of years.

... Addressing the Islamic religious perspectives, a report of a conference, held in June 2006, ‘Female Genital Mutilation religious and legal perspectives’, published by Womankind stated: ”Islam participants argue forcefully that there is no justification for FGM in any Islamic texts or teachings. First, they mphasised that the practice is not even referred to in the Koran. It is referred to in one of the hadiths; however, as authoritative participants made clear, this hadith has been found to be weak and inauthentic” [34b]

The report continued: ”Secondly, participants noted that the key tenets of Muslim obligation are clearly asserted in the Koran and hadiths... Yet FGM is not even mentioned. Nor can FGM be justified on the basis of following the Prophet’s example; it is not stated that any of the Prophet’s wives and daughters had undergone the procedure”. [34b]

Then addressing Christian religious perspectives, the report continued: This Country of Origin Information Report contains the most up-to-date publicly available information as at 20 June 20085

Older source material has been included where it contains relevant information not available in more recent documents.

”Christian (Coptic) religious leaders also emphasised to the conference that there is no justification for FGM in Christian teachings; indeed, it is not even referred to in the Bible. The procedure is not undertaken as part of a religious ceremony, and no religious leader is present when it is performed. [34b]

The WHO, in its Key Facts paper of May 2008, noted: ”Local structures of power and authority, such as community leaders, religious leaders, circumcisers, and even some medical personnel can contribute to
upholding the practice. In most societies, FGM is considered a cultural tradition, which is often used as an argument for its continuation.--- FGM - UK Border Agency <<​

That's all very interesting. The fact remains that the people involved in the Michigan female genital mutilation incidents were Muslim.

But you didn't stop to ask "from where" now did you.

Again, take that same Anthro course I sent Rocko to and tell us where there exists a people whose every act is dictated by religion --- and not by culutre, by geopolitics, by economics, etc.

Or just look up what "Association Fallacy" means.

Hey, the IRA were Catholics. The Klan were Protestants. What shall we conclude there by way of causation?

What are you ranting about?! They are Muslims and they, by their own admission, were practicing a religious and cultural tradition in "shaving" little girl's labias. You can spout your association fallacy line all you want. You are denying reality.

Would you prefer "Causation Fallacy"? Same thing.

Hey, if you're trying to tell the class that FGM is an religious thing --- quit pussyfooting and show your evidence. And by "evidence" I mean credible evidence, not some clown trying to get off the hook with an excuse where he thinks he can hide behind the First Amendment on what is already defined as a cultural practice. Go ahead, quote the Quran on FGM. Quote the Bible.

You won't. Because there isn't any. Because just as with the whole "honor killing" bullshit, this was around thousands of years before Jesus or Mohammed.

I offered two links on the discussion topic. You keep wandering off accusing me of new fallacies.

Here's the thing. Muslims who don't carve up their little girl's genitals aren't offended or harmed by the facts about the Muslims in Michigan that did carve up their little girls' genitals. Just like Protestants who are not members of the KKK are not offended or harmed by the fact that some Protestants are.

 

[Preacher]

The jew always gets special treatment.

Female genital mutilation now a 15-year felony in Michigan

july 11 2017 LANSING — Gov. Rick Snyder signed 13 bills Tuesday stemming from a case of female genital mutilation that happened in Livonia in April.

“Those who commit these horrendous crimes should be held accountable for their actions, and these bills stiffen the penalties for offenders while providing additional support to victims,” Snyder said. “This legislation is an important step toward eliminating this despicable practice in Michigan while empowering victims to find healing and justice.”

Under the main bill, female genital mutilation would be considered a felony in Michigan, punishable by up to 15 years in prison. That's a harsher penalty than the 1996 federal genital mutilation law, which includes a sentence of up to five years in prison. Michigan will join at least 24 other states that have passed anti-genital cutting laws over the last two decades.

One day male genital mutilation will be banned as well. Its barbaric and disgusting and violent. We only have 1 son but he was not mutilated and at 8.5 years old has NEVER had any issues with the decision. We got bullshit from my mother and grandmother but it was all noise....glad we made that decision,I remember sitting in the room after our last child was born and hearing a newborn next door being mutilated and it was absolutely awful.

Why ban it? It's harmless. If you don't want to do it to your kids, don't do it.

If I have a son, he's getting snipped.

Because its barbaric and an unnecessary mutilation based off silly religious beliefs,it serves no decent reasonable purpose. Its child abuse 100%. Its pure laziness if an uncut person has an infection because if an 8 year old can care for themselves then an adult can.

 

[martybegan]

The jew always gets special treatment.

Female genital mutilation now a 15-year felony in Michigan

july 11 2017 LANSING — Gov. Rick Snyder signed 13 bills Tuesday stemming from a case of female genital mutilation that happened in Livonia in April.

“Those who commit these horrendous crimes should be held accountable for their actions, and these bills stiffen the penalties for offenders while providing additional support to victims,” Snyder said. “This legislation is an important step toward eliminating this despicable practice in Michigan while empowering victims to find healing and justice.”

Under the main bill, female genital mutilation would be considered a felony in Michigan, punishable by up to 15 years in prison. That's a harsher penalty than the 1996 federal genital mutilation law, which includes a sentence of up to five years in prison. Michigan will join at least 24 other states that have passed anti-genital cutting laws over the last two decades.

One day male genital mutilation will be banned as well. Its barbaric and disgusting and violent. We only have 1 son but he was not mutilated and at 8.5 years old has NEVER had any issues with the decision. We got bullshit from my mother and grandmother but it was all noise....glad we made that decision,I remember sitting in the room after our last child was born and hearing a newborn next door being mutilated and it was absolutely awful.

Why ban it? It's harmless. If you don't want to do it to your kids, don't do it.

If I have a son, he's getting snipped.

Because its barbaric and an unnecessary mutilation based off silly religious beliefs,it serves no decent reasonable purpose. Its child abuse 100%. Its pure laziness if an uncut person has an infection because if an 8 year old can care for themselves then an adult can.

it isn't barbaric, and I'm not jewish so religion didn't come into my parent's decision to do it.

 

[Compost]

Who cares what religion, or otherwise, or where, female genital mutilation is wrong.

Apparently the desciptively-named poster "Compost" does. He's trying to make exactly that point, while simultaneously wimping out on the fact that he IS making it.

What does desciptively mean? LOL

Pogo, you obviously haven't read what I've written and linked. All you do is knee jerk off with the name calling.

 

[Pogo]

What does desciptively mean? LOL

It means I have a very old keyboard with about a billion character strokes on it.

--- Or to follow your logic, it must have something to do with my religion.

Hey, anybody can claim "religious ritual" to try to get off the hook. Doesn't make it magically retroactively appear in the history books.

Again, consider the source. This is the same argument that tries to say "Hitler was a socialist because that was the name of the party and Hitler would never lie".

>> . The practice predates Christianity and Islam... The accounts of historian Pietro Bembo, posthumously published in 1550, reported that most likely FC originated in Egypt and the Nile valley, then spread out to the Red Sea coastal tribes with Arab traders, and then spread into eastern Sudan”.
[4a]

Islam Watch, in an article dated 6 July 2007, reported: ”As a cultural practice, FGM has probably been in existence for thousands of years.

... Addressing the Islamic religious perspectives, a report of a conference, held in June 2006, ‘Female Genital Mutilation religious and legal perspectives’, published by Womankind stated: ”Islam participants argue forcefully that there is no justification for FGM in any Islamic texts or teachings. First, they mphasised that the practice is not even referred to in the Koran. It is referred to in one of the hadiths; however, as authoritative participants made clear, this hadith has been found to be weak and inauthentic” [34b]

The report continued: ”Secondly, participants noted that the key tenets of Muslim obligation are clearly asserted in the Koran and hadiths... Yet FGM is not even mentioned. Nor can FGM be justified on the basis of following the Prophet’s example; it is not stated that any of the Prophet’s wives and daughters had undergone the procedure”. [34b]

Then addressing Christian religious perspectives, the report continued: This Country of Origin Information Report contains the most up-to-date publicly available information as at 20 June 20085

Older source material has been included where it contains relevant information not available in more recent documents.

”Christian (Coptic) religious leaders also emphasised to the conference that there is no justification for FGM in Christian teachings; indeed, it is not even referred to in the Bible. The procedure is not undertaken as part of a religious ceremony, and no religious leader is present when it is performed. [34b]

The WHO, in its Key Facts paper of May 2008, noted: ”Local structures of power and authority, such as community leaders, religious leaders, circumcisers, and even some medical personnel can contribute to
upholding the practice. In most societies, FGM is considered a cultural tradition, which is often used as an argument for its continuation.--- FGM - UK Border Agency <<​

That's all very interesting. The fact remains that the people involved in the Michigan female genital mutilation incidents were Muslim.

But you didn't stop to ask "from where" now did you.

Again, take that same Anthro course I sent Rocko to and tell us where there exists a people whose every act is dictated by religion --- and not by culutre, by geopolitics, by economics, etc.

Or just look up what "Association Fallacy" means.

Hey, the IRA were Catholics. The Klan were Protestants. What shall we conclude there by way of causation?

What are you ranting about?! They are Muslims and they, by their own admission, were practicing a religious and cultural tradition in "shaving" little girl's labias. You can spout your association fallacy line all you want. You are denying reality.

Would you prefer "Causation Fallacy"? Same thing.

Hey, if you're trying to tell the class that FGM is an religious thing --- quit pussyfooting and show your evidence. And by "evidence" I mean credible evidence, not some clown trying to get off the hook with an excuse where he thinks he can hide behind the First Amendment on what is already defined as a cultural practice. Go ahead, quote the Quran on FGM. Quote the Bible.

You won't. Because there isn't any. Because just as with the whole "honor killing" bullshit, this was around thousands of years before Jesus or Mohammed.

I offered two links on the discussion topic. You keep wandering off accusing me of new fallacies.

Here's the thing. Muslims who don't carve up their little girl's genitals aren't offended or harmed by the facts about the Muslims in Michigan that did carve up their little girls' genitals. Just like Protestants who are not members of the KKK are not offended or harmed by the fact that some Protestants are.

Link to these non-offended?

Yeah didn't think so.

Here's the thing. You came in trying to trot a Composition Fallacy hoping it would sell. I called you on it, and you denied you were doing that. Then you kept trying to sell the same snake oil.

You offerered NOTHING as far as any evidence. All you have is Association/Composition fallacy. I challenged you to prove it, and you wmped.

Here's another thing if you want to plant your flag on said fallacy:

​

The project "28 too many", named for the number of countries in Africa where FGM is practiced, notes:

>> The ethnic groups (NOTE: "ethnic group", not "religion") that practise FGM are mostly located in the North East of Uganda in the Eastern and Karamoja regions. They are the Sabiny (also called the Sebei) (in the Eastern Region), and the Pokot, Tepeth and Kadama (Karamoja Region). These ethnic groups are all part of the larger Kalenjin ethnic group and are related to the Maasai in Kenya and Tanzania who also practise FGM.

Among the Pokot, FGM is near universal at 95% and the practice is estimated at approximately 50% among the Sabiny (UNFPA,2011). FGM among these ethnic groups is largely practised as a rite of passage and to ensure marriageability. It is closely associated with early marriage and bride price. It is also a way of distinguishing such ethnic groups from their neighbours (the Karamojong who do not practise FGM) with whom they sometimes have a hostile relationship. Although there is little available data, FGM may also be practised by the Nubi and Somali communities.<<​

See the words "rite of passage"? Every culture has them. To again return to one of our own, girls in the "West" start painting their fingernails red to simulate the blood of menstruation. It tells the world "I am ovulating".

Now go ahead and essplain to the class how painting one's fingernails has something to do with religion.

Yeah didn't think so. Time to trot out your Association Fallacy --- Uganda is 85% Christian. Oopsie.

The same pdf on page 36, where it breaks down the religions of the involved ethnic groups, most of whom turn out to be Christian (see the table -- under 10% Muslim for the Sabiny, under 1% for the Pokot), notes:

>> As in other countries, FGM predates religion and is not exclusive to one religion. FGM has been justified under Islam yet many Muslims do not practise FGM and many agree it is not in the Qur’an. Within Christianity, the Bible does not mention the issue of FGM, meaning that Christians in Africa who practise FGM do so because of a cultural custom. FBOs and officials are involved in the eradication of FGM. In 2006, Target sponsored a conference between Muslim scholars from many nations; they deemed FGM to be against the Islamic faith as it is a harmful attack on women (Target, 2006).

More than 80% of Ugandans are Christian, Anglicans or Roman Catholics, the remainder being Muslim. Leaders of both established churches have spoken out against FGM. In both the districts of the Pokot and Sabiny faith leaders have spoken against FGM to little effect. <<
​

That same cited chart notes that the Pokot, with their near-universal 95% practice of FGM, are 36% Christian, 0.7% Muslim --- and the majority, half, follow "traditional" religions. What does Association Fallacy say about that? Hm?


Nobody does it because their religion prescribes it. They do it because they are traditional, pastoral, patriarchal peoples who have been doing it for, literally, thousands of years.

ibid., p. 15:

>> FGM has been practised for over 2000 years (Slack, 1988). Although it has obscure origins, there has been anthropological and historical research on how FGM came about. It is found in traditional group or community cultures that have patriarchal structures. Although FGM is practised in some communities in the belief that it is a religious requirement, research shows that FGM pre-dates Islam and Christianity. Some anthropologists trace the practice to 5th century BC Egypt, with infibulations being referred to as ‘Pharaonic circumcision’ (Slack, 1988). Other anthropologists believe that it existed among Equatorial African herders as a protection against rape for young female herders; as a custom amongst stone-age people in Equatorial Africa; or as ‘an outgrowth of human sacrificial practices, or some early attempt at population control’ (Lightfoot-Klein, 1983).

There were also reports in the early 1600s of the practice in Somalia as a means of extracting higher prices for female slaves, and in the late 1700s in Egypt to prevent pregnancy in women and slaves. FGM is practised across a wide range of cultures and it is likely that the practice arose independently amongst different peoples (Lightfoot-Klein, 1983), aided by Egyptian slave raids from Sudan for concubines and maids, and traded through the Red Sea to the Persian Gulf (Mackie, 1996) (Sources referred to by Wilson, 2012/2013 <<
​

Indeed the premise that it arose independently among different cultures in different places is confirmed by my previous citation of the Embará indigenous tribe of northern South America.

FGM ---- "honor" killing ---- Dowries ---- arranged marriages ---- these are ancient and patriarchal social structures extant LONG before monotheistic religions were a concept. Practices that ancient are not going to be eradicated just because somebody comes up with a religion and calls it "Islam" or "Christianity" or "Hinduism" or anything else. Cultural practice trumps religion. Always has.


Here's the thing in sum: if one is genuinely interested in wiping out FGM (or anything else), the first step is to understand what it is and what it isn't. I have provided plenty of evidence for the former. You have made post after post of implied religious associations already known to be false, which, when you're called on making that fallacy, you run away from and pretend you didn't. That means one of us is genuinely concerned about the issue while the other is just here to score bullshit "points" on a message board.

 

[Compost]

What does desciptively mean? LOL

It means I have a very old keyboard with about a billion character strokes on it.

--- Or to follow your logic, it must have something to do with my religion.

That's all very interesting. The fact remains that the people involved in the Michigan female genital mutilation incidents were Muslim.

But you didn't stop to ask "from where" now did you.

Again, take that same Anthro course I sent Rocko to and tell us where there exists a people whose every act is dictated by religion --- and not by culutre, by geopolitics, by economics, etc.

Or just look up what "Association Fallacy" means.

Hey, the IRA were Catholics. The Klan were Protestants. What shall we conclude there by way of causation?

What are you ranting about?! They are Muslims and they, by their own admission, were practicing a religious and cultural tradition in "shaving" little girl's labias. You can spout your association fallacy line all you want. You are denying reality.

Would you prefer "Causation Fallacy"? Same thing.

Hey, if you're trying to tell the class that FGM is an religious thing --- quit pussyfooting and show your evidence. And by "evidence" I mean credible evidence, not some clown trying to get off the hook with an excuse where he thinks he can hide behind the First Amendment on what is already defined as a cultural practice. Go ahead, quote the Quran on FGM. Quote the Bible.

You won't. Because there isn't any. Because just as with the whole "honor killing" bullshit, this was around thousands of years before Jesus or Mohammed.

I offered two links on the discussion topic. You keep wandering off accusing me of new fallacies.

Here's the thing. Muslims who don't carve up their little girl's genitals aren't offended or harmed by the facts about the Muslims in Michigan that did carve up their little girls' genitals. Just like Protestants who are not members of the KKK are not offended or harmed by the fact that some Protestants are.

Link to these non-offended?

Yeah didn't think so.

Here's the thing. You came in trying to trot a Composition Fallacy hoping it would sell. I called you on it, and you denied you were doing that. Then you kept trying to sell the same snake oil.

You offerered NOTHING as far as any evidence. All you have is Association/Composition fallacy. I challenged you to prove it, and you wmped.

Here's another thing if you want to plant your flag on said fallacy:

​

The project "28 too many", named for the number of countries in Africa where FGM is practiced, notes:

>> The ethnic groups (NOTE: "ethnic group", not "religion") that practise FGM are mostly located in the North East of Uganda in the Eastern and Karamoja regions. They are the Sabiny (also called the Sebei) (in the Eastern Region), and the Pokot, Tepeth and Kadama (Karamoja Region). These ethnic groups are all part of the larger Kalenjin ethnic group and are related to the Maasai in Kenya and Tanzania who also practise FGM.

Among the Pokot, FGM is near universal at 95% and the practice is estimated at approximately 50% among the Sabiny (UNFPA,2011). FGM among these ethnic groups is largely practised as a rite of passage and to ensure marriageability. It is closely associated with early marriage and bride price. It is also a way of distinguishing such ethnic groups from their neighbours (the Karamojong who do not practise FGM) with whom they sometimes have a hostile relationship. Although there is little available data, FGM may also be practised by the Nubi and Somali communities.<<​

See the words "rite of passage"? Every culture has them. To again return to one of our own, girls in the "West" start painting their fingernails red to simulate the blood of menstruation. It tells the world "I am ovulating".

Now go ahead and essplain to the class how painting one's fingernails has something to do with religion.

Yeah didn't think so. Time to trot out your Association Fallacy --- Uganda is 85% Christian. Oopsie.

The same pdf on page 36, where it breaks down the religions of the involved ethnic groups, most of whom turn out to be Christian (see the table -- under 10% Muslim for the Sabiny, under 1% for the Pokot), notes:

>> As in other countries, FGM predates religion and is not exclusive to one religion. FGM has been justified under Islam yet many Muslims do not practise FGM and many agree it is not in the Qur’an. Within Christianity, the Bible does not mention the issue of FGM, meaning that Christians in Africa who practise FGM do so because of a cultural custom. FBOs and officials are involved in the eradication of FGM. In 2006, Target sponsored a conference between Muslim scholars from many nations; they deemed FGM to be against the Islamic faith as it is a harmful attack on women (Target, 2006).

More than 80% of Ugandans are Christian, Anglicans or Roman Catholics, the remainder being Muslim. Leaders of both established churches have spoken out against FGM. In both the districts of the Pokot and Sabiny faith leaders have spoken against FGM to little effect. <<
​

That same cited chart notes that the Pokot, with their near-universal 95% practice of FGM, are 36% Christian, 0.7% Muslim --- and the majority, half, follow "traditional" religions. What does Association Fallacy say about that? Hm?


Nobody does it because their religion prescribes it. They do it because they are traditional, pastoral, patriarchal peoples who have been doing it for, literally, thousands of years.

ibid., p. 15:

>> FGM has been practised for over 2000 years (Slack, 1988). Although it has obscure origins, there has been anthropological and historical research on how FGM came about. It is found in traditional group or community cultures that have patriarchal structures. Although FGM is practised in some communities in the belief that it is a religious requirement, research shows that FGM pre-dates Islam and Christianity. Some anthropologists trace the practice to 5th century BC Egypt, with infibulations being referred to as ‘Pharaonic circumcision’ (Slack, 1988). Other anthropologists believe that it existed among Equatorial African herders as a protection against rape for young female herders; as a custom amongst stone-age people in Equatorial Africa; or as ‘an outgrowth of human sacrificial practices, or some early attempt at population control’ (Lightfoot-Klein, 1983).

There were also reports in the early 1600s of the practice in Somalia as a means of extracting higher prices for female slaves, and in the late 1700s in Egypt to prevent pregnancy in women and slaves. FGM is practised across a wide range of cultures and it is likely that the practice arose independently amongst different peoples (Lightfoot-Klein, 1983), aided by Egyptian slave raids from Sudan for concubines and maids, and traded through the Red Sea to the Persian Gulf (Mackie, 1996) (Sources referred to by Wilson, 2012/2013 <<
​

Indeed the premise that it arose independently among different cultures in different places is confirmed by my previous citation of the Embará indigenous tribe of northern South America.

FGM ---- "honor" killing ---- Dowries ---- arranged marriages ---- these are ancient and patriarchal social structures extant LONG before monotheistic religions were a concept. Practices that ancient are not going to be eradicated just because somebody comes up with a religion and calls it "Islam" or "Christianity" or "Hinduism" or anything else. Cultural practice trumps religion. Always has.


Here's the thing in sum: if one is genuinely interested in wiping out FGM (or anything else), the first step is to understand what it is and what it isn't. I have provided plenty of evidence for the former. You have made post after post of implied religious associations already known to be false, which, when you're called on making that fallacy, you run away from and pretend you didn't. That means one of us is genuinely concerned about the issue while the other is just here to score bullshit "points" on a message board.

I don't have to prove anything to you. I have presented the facts of the matter in Michigan. You are going on and on and on about other people, other cultures, other places, other eras and other issues. You are blathering that I've somehow changed facts, while you ignore them. Your blithering accusations and long winded professor act prove nothing other than your obvious need to pontificate.

In sum. "Cultural practice trumps religion." You sure haven't proved that. But then, who cares? That wasn't the point of the Michigan law in the first place- you know, the topic of this thread?

You have been arguing with yourself all along. Knock yourself out. You will waste no more of my time.

 

[Pogo]

What does desciptively mean? LOL

It means I have a very old keyboard with about a billion character strokes on it.

--- Or to follow your logic, it must have something to do with my religion.

But you didn't stop to ask "from where" now did you.

Again, take that same Anthro course I sent Rocko to and tell us where there exists a people whose every act is dictated by religion --- and not by culutre, by geopolitics, by economics, etc.

Or just look up what "Association Fallacy" means.

Hey, the IRA were Catholics. The Klan were Protestants. What shall we conclude there by way of causation?

What are you ranting about?! They are Muslims and they, by their own admission, were practicing a religious and cultural tradition in "shaving" little girl's labias. You can spout your association fallacy line all you want. You are denying reality.

Would you prefer "Causation Fallacy"? Same thing.

Hey, if you're trying to tell the class that FGM is an religious thing --- quit pussyfooting and show your evidence. And by "evidence" I mean credible evidence, not some clown trying to get off the hook with an excuse where he thinks he can hide behind the First Amendment on what is already defined as a cultural practice. Go ahead, quote the Quran on FGM. Quote the Bible.

You won't. Because there isn't any. Because just as with the whole "honor killing" bullshit, this was around thousands of years before Jesus or Mohammed.

I offered two links on the discussion topic. You keep wandering off accusing me of new fallacies.

Here's the thing. Muslims who don't carve up their little girl's genitals aren't offended or harmed by the facts about the Muslims in Michigan that did carve up their little girls' genitals. Just like Protestants who are not members of the KKK are not offended or harmed by the fact that some Protestants are.

Link to these non-offended?

Yeah didn't think so.

Here's the thing. You came in trying to trot a Composition Fallacy hoping it would sell. I called you on it, and you denied you were doing that. Then you kept trying to sell the same snake oil.

You offerered NOTHING as far as any evidence. All you have is Association/Composition fallacy. I challenged you to prove it, and you wmped.

Here's another thing if you want to plant your flag on said fallacy:

​

The project "28 too many", named for the number of countries in Africa where FGM is practiced, notes:

>> The ethnic groups (NOTE: "ethnic group", not "religion") that practise FGM are mostly located in the North East of Uganda in the Eastern and Karamoja regions. They are the Sabiny (also called the Sebei) (in the Eastern Region), and the Pokot, Tepeth and Kadama (Karamoja Region). These ethnic groups are all part of the larger Kalenjin ethnic group and are related to the Maasai in Kenya and Tanzania who also practise FGM.

Among the Pokot, FGM is near universal at 95% and the practice is estimated at approximately 50% among the Sabiny (UNFPA,2011). FGM among these ethnic groups is largely practised as a rite of passage and to ensure marriageability. It is closely associated with early marriage and bride price. It is also a way of distinguishing such ethnic groups from their neighbours (the Karamojong who do not practise FGM) with whom they sometimes have a hostile relationship. Although there is little available data, FGM may also be practised by the Nubi and Somali communities.<<​

See the words "rite of passage"? Every culture has them. To again return to one of our own, girls in the "West" start painting their fingernails red to simulate the blood of menstruation. It tells the world "I am ovulating".

Now go ahead and essplain to the class how painting one's fingernails has something to do with religion.

Yeah didn't think so. Time to trot out your Association Fallacy --- Uganda is 85% Christian. Oopsie.

The same pdf on page 36, where it breaks down the religions of the involved ethnic groups, most of whom turn out to be Christian (see the table -- under 10% Muslim for the Sabiny, under 1% for the Pokot), notes:

>> As in other countries, FGM predates religion and is not exclusive to one religion. FGM has been justified under Islam yet many Muslims do not practise FGM and many agree it is not in the Qur’an. Within Christianity, the Bible does not mention the issue of FGM, meaning that Christians in Africa who practise FGM do so because of a cultural custom. FBOs and officials are involved in the eradication of FGM. In 2006, Target sponsored a conference between Muslim scholars from many nations; they deemed FGM to be against the Islamic faith as it is a harmful attack on women (Target, 2006).

More than 80% of Ugandans are Christian, Anglicans or Roman Catholics, the remainder being Muslim. Leaders of both established churches have spoken out against FGM. In both the districts of the Pokot and Sabiny faith leaders have spoken against FGM to little effect. <<
​

That same cited chart notes that the Pokot, with their near-universal 95% practice of FGM, are 36% Christian, 0.7% Muslim --- and the majority, half, follow "traditional" religions. What does Association Fallacy say about that? Hm?


Nobody does it because their religion prescribes it. They do it because they are traditional, pastoral, patriarchal peoples who have been doing it for, literally, thousands of years.

ibid., p. 15:

>> FGM has been practised for over 2000 years (Slack, 1988). Although it has obscure origins, there has been anthropological and historical research on how FGM came about. It is found in traditional group or community cultures that have patriarchal structures. Although FGM is practised in some communities in the belief that it is a religious requirement, research shows that FGM pre-dates Islam and Christianity. Some anthropologists trace the practice to 5th century BC Egypt, with infibulations being referred to as ‘Pharaonic circumcision’ (Slack, 1988). Other anthropologists believe that it existed among Equatorial African herders as a protection against rape for young female herders; as a custom amongst stone-age people in Equatorial Africa; or as ‘an outgrowth of human sacrificial practices, or some early attempt at population control’ (Lightfoot-Klein, 1983).

There were also reports in the early 1600s of the practice in Somalia as a means of extracting higher prices for female slaves, and in the late 1700s in Egypt to prevent pregnancy in women and slaves. FGM is practised across a wide range of cultures and it is likely that the practice arose independently amongst different peoples (Lightfoot-Klein, 1983), aided by Egyptian slave raids from Sudan for concubines and maids, and traded through the Red Sea to the Persian Gulf (Mackie, 1996) (Sources referred to by Wilson, 2012/2013 <<
​

Indeed the premise that it arose independently among different cultures in different places is confirmed by my previous citation of the Embará indigenous tribe of northern South America.

FGM ---- "honor" killing ---- Dowries ---- arranged marriages ---- these are ancient and patriarchal social structures extant LONG before monotheistic religions were a concept. Practices that ancient are not going to be eradicated just because somebody comes up with a religion and calls it "Islam" or "Christianity" or "Hinduism" or anything else. Cultural practice trumps religion. Always has.


Here's the thing in sum: if one is genuinely interested in wiping out FGM (or anything else), the first step is to understand what it is and what it isn't. I have provided plenty of evidence for the former. You have made post after post of implied religious associations already known to be false, which, when you're called on making that fallacy, you run away from and pretend you didn't. That means one of us is genuinely concerned about the issue while the other is just here to score bullshit "points" on a message board.

I don't have to prove anything to you. I have presented the facts of the matter in Michigan. You are going on and on and on about other people, other cultures, other places, other eras and other issues. You are blathering that I've somehow changed facts, while you ignore them. Your blithering accusations and long winded professor act prove nothing other than your obvious need to pontificate.

In sum. "Cultural practice trumps religion." You sure haven't proved that. But then, who cares? That wasn't the point of the Michigan law in the first place- you know, the topic of this thread?

You have been arguing with yourself all along. Knock yourself out. You will waste no more of my time.

And there it is again --- Wimpy runs away from his own fallacy as soon as it's exposed.

I accept your inept concession. Now don't pull that shit again, or you'll get more of the same.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

How do you know?

Aye, there's the rub.

If it's surgically fucking with nature, then yes it's mutilation. Regardless who it's done on.

The "difference," is the difference between clipping a fingernail and chopping off your fingers.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Then why allow them to mutilate the genitals of little boys...?

male circumcision isn't mutilation. I'm circumcised and my wang works just fine.

How do you know?

Aye, there's the rub.

If it's surgically fucking with nature, then yes it's mutilation. Regardless who it's done on.

Actually much as it pains me to admit it the OP makes a good point in his title. Mutilation for one gender is OK but we clamp down on the other gender. That's incongruous.

The rub?
Did you just say, The Rub?

I agree.

The OP almost got it right but he's unable to ever gat very far away from being the human maggot we all know him to be.

There are rare cases where male circumcision is healthful but most of the time unnecessary and a very ugly decision to make for a baby.

Also true that FGM is not related to religion. Nor is male circumcision. Bizarre that it has become a custom. Usually, it's simply that the dad wants his son to match him.

Also very odd to me that god believers would circumcise because they're actually saying their god didn't get it right and mere humans have to fix it.

Finally, there is no comparison between the horror visited on young girls and male circumcision.

Note to ShootSpeeders - STFU and get back under your trailer.



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[koshergrl]

The stated goal and outcome of male circumcision is not to inflict pain upon a person, and limit their enjoyment of sex. That makes the OP's statement a false analogy.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Then why allow them to mutilate the genitals of little boys...?

male circumcision isn't mutilation. I'm circumcised and my wang works just fine.

Actually... It is mutilation. And women's vaginas, also work after the circumcision. Not sure what your point was.

If it's mutilation then it's a healthy form of mutilation. Fair enough?

No. Not really. "Fair" would be leaving their genitals intact, until they, themselves were old enough to make an informed decision, and decide for themselves.

So "no". Not fair enough...

Your opinion is not consistent with popular medical point of view.

What?

"popular"?

We've always done it this way so ...

The original reason for circumcision was to stop masturbation. Then it became custom. Now it's a brainless, thoughtless decision.




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[Luddly Neddite]

How do you know?

Aye, there's the rub.

If it's surgically fucking with nature, then yes it's mutilation. Regardless who it's done on.

The "difference," is the difference between clipping a fingernail and chopping off your fingers.

If you are comparing male circumcision with FGM, I agree.


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[Pogo]

Then why allow them to mutilate the genitals of little boys...?

male circumcision isn't mutilation. I'm circumcised and my wang works just fine.

How do you know?

Aye, there's the rub.

If it's surgically fucking with nature, then yes it's mutilation. Regardless who it's done on.

Actually much as it pains me to admit it the OP makes a good point in his title. Mutilation for one gender is OK but we clamp down on the other gender. That's incongruous.

The rub?
Did you just say, The Rub?

I did. I also said "clamp down on". This is what I do around here --- plant pun land mines. Some of 'em get stepped on right away. Others are still waiting, years on.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

The "difference," is the difference between clipping a fingernail and chopping off your fingers.

HAHAHA. Standard joo-supremacist hypocrisy. We can do it but you can't.

 

[koshergrl]

The "difference," is the difference between clipping a fingernail and chopping off your fingers.

HAHAHA. Standard joo-supremacist hypocrisy. We can do it but you can't.

No. Again for the retarded:

Circumcision is not undertaken for the express purpose, and with the known side effect of, making sex painful or at least less pleasurable. Male and female circumcision are not the same things, any more than males and females are the same.

 

[Pogo]

How do you know?

Aye, there's the rub.

If it's surgically fucking with nature, then yes it's mutilation. Regardless who it's done on.

The "difference," is the difference between clipping a fingernail and chopping off your fingers.

I posted nothing about a "difference". I posted nothing about any "comparison".
What I did there was I corrected a definition -- to wit:

male circumcision isn't mutilation.

And here, I just ate a red herring. Burp.

I daresay the older females in these ethnic groups who believe in FGM and perpetuate the tradition because it was done to them, and their mothers, and their mother's mothers, etc, would express the same defense --- "it isn't mutilation if it's done to me".

 

[AvgGuyIA]

Isn't this anti-circumcision beef just a pro-Nazi thing? Strange bedfellows in this thread. Enough of this bigotry towards those of us with fathers having the good sense to have us cut.

 

[WinterBorn]

Then why allow them to mutilate the genitals of little boys...?

male circumcision isn't mutilation. I'm circumcised and my wang works just fine.

Actually... It is mutilation. And women's vaginas, also work after the circumcision. Not sure what your point was.

Yes, the vagina works fine. But the removal of the clitoris means there is little or no pleasure in sex afterwards. How about your circumcision? Is sex still pleasurable? Because removing pleasure from sex is the point of female genital mutilations.

 

[WinterBorn]

The jew always gets special treatment.

Female genital mutilation now a 15-year felony in Michigan

july 11 2017 LANSING — Gov. Rick Snyder signed 13 bills Tuesday stemming from a case of female genital mutilation that happened in Livonia in April.

“Those who commit these horrendous crimes should be held accountable for their actions, and these bills stiffen the penalties for offenders while providing additional support to victims,” Snyder said. “This legislation is an important step toward eliminating this despicable practice in Michigan while empowering victims to find healing and justice.”

Under the main bill, female genital mutilation would be considered a felony in Michigan, punishable by up to 15 years in prison. That's a harsher penalty than the 1996 federal genital mutilation law, which includes a sentence of up to five years in prison. Michigan will join at least 24 other states that have passed anti-genital cutting laws over the last two decades.

The Jew gets special treatment? Are you really that ignorant?

According to the CDC, 81% of men in the US are circumsized. Jews make up 2% of the population in the US.

In other words, there are roughly 1.7 million Jewish men in the US. But roughly 132 million men in the US are circumsized. So for every Jew that is circumsized, 77 non-jewish men are also circumsized.

 

[WinterBorn]

Then why allow them to mutilate the genitals of little boys...?

male circumcision isn't mutilation. I'm circumcised and my wang works just fine.

How do you know?

Aye, there's the rub.

If it's surgically fucking with nature, then yes it's mutilation. Regardless who it's done on.

Actually much as it pains me to admit it the OP makes a good point in his title. Mutilation for one gender is OK but we clamp down on the other gender. That's incongruous.

There is a huge difference between the two mutilations. One is removing a small amount of skin. The other is surgically removing the central nerve center for sex. One is done for hygiene reasons as well. The other is done for the specific and expressed purpose of completely removing a female's ability to enjoy sex. One is a religious and hygienic procedure. The other is a patriarchal way of controlling women and women's sexual appetites or needs.