MN man, guilty or not guilty

[Skull Pilot]

for non gun owners.....the school of thought of gun owners....if its worth pulling out your weapon, it is worth killing the person...simple as that....this aint tv where everyone aims and talks.....when i pull a gun, i do it for a reason...and that is not to negotiate jack shit....i think the dude was wrong in the kill shots but i will say this ..when threatened you react....

i am like skull....take my fucking tv...threaten my family...which includes the mutts and little people in cheap fur coats....and i react

I am going to assume from the second that someone breaks into my home that they will do me or my wife or my dogs harm.

I'm not going to stand there and wait to see if they are only going to take a TV.

If he would have "Mogadishu"'ed the two perps, two taps to the chest, and then one to the head, he wouldn't in my opinion be guilty of anything. On your initial confrontation with someone in your own house you are allowed to use deadly force. its the pause and then shots to kill that is criminal.

Maybe. I still wouldn't call it first degree and would be likely to let him off on extreme emotional distress

 

[BDBoop]

He lived alone.

And okay, maybe it is just me. But this had happened several times before. If he was just looking to kill someone, wouldn't he have done so earlier?

I'm going to assume the multiple break ins caused the guy emotional trauma akin to PTSD

It's one thing to think you're safe in your home and another to know it's only a matter of time before some piece of shit breaks in and possible does you harm.

That was my thinking. Exactly. I can't even feel for the kids, because they didn't bother to feel for him, and what effect their actions would have on his psyche.

Also, he was not their only victim. Others were affected by their actions.

Until I hear that he was something other than a man who lived by the law for 6.5 decades, this is my stand on the case.

 

[martybegan]

I am going to assume from the second that someone breaks into my home that they will do me or my wife or my dogs harm.

I'm not going to stand there and wait to see if they are only going to take a TV.

If he would have "Mogadishu"'ed the two perps, two taps to the chest, and then one to the head, he wouldn't in my opinion be guilty of anything. On your initial confrontation with someone in your own house you are allowed to use deadly force. its the pause and then shots to kill that is criminal.

Maybe. I still wouldn't call it first degree and would be likely to let him off on extreme emotional distress

I agree it isn't first degree, at most manslaughter. and if he brought up emotional distress as the reason he did it, I can see a jury being at a minimum hung.

 

[Howey]

I'm kind of surprised he's even being tried. They were IN his HOUSE.

The jurors heard the dramatic audio recordings Tuesday involving the homeowner who said he feared for his life after several previous break-ins.

Byron Smith, 65, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the slayings of cousins Nick Brady, 17, and Haile Kifer, 18, on Thanksgiving Day 2012. The retired State Department security engineer told police that, after the repeated break-ins, he was so fearful that he installed recording devices in his house.

Glass breaking and footsteps could be heard on the recordings. According to Pam Louwagie, a reporter with the Minneapolis Star Tribune, the tapes captured the moments of the fatal shootings.

“The first couple of gunshots you hear are just two loud bangs, and then you hear Nick Brady groaning,” Louwagie said.

After another bang, Smith’s voice could be heard.

“You’re dead,” he said.

“And soon after that, you can hear a tarp rustling, and it sounds like he’s dragging Nick Brady across the carpet,” Louwagie said.

Minutes later, when Kifer went into the basement, perhaps looking for Brady, Smith apparently shot her too, then quickly said, “Oh, sorry about that.”

But, prosecutors said, he didn’t stop there, firing amid Kifer’s screams.

And how can it possibly be premedited?? He didn't know there would be another break-in; how could he? Wouldn't the prosecution have to prove that he knew they would be breaking in?

'You're Dead,' Minn. Man Said After Shooting Teen Intruder - ABC News

I ☆think☆ the premeditated part and the charges apply to the second kid.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The finishing shot(s) for each are the premeditation.

He could have called when he heard the noises.

He could have called after shooting the boy.

 

[Missourian]

I've argued this position before... Life Sentence for Oklahoma Pharmacist Sparks Debate - ABC News

 

[Wry Catcher]

I'm kind of surprised he's even being tried. They were IN his HOUSE.

The jurors heard the dramatic audio recordings Tuesday involving the homeowner who said he feared for his life after several previous break-ins.

Byron Smith, 65, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the slayings of cousins Nick Brady, 17, and Haile Kifer, 18, on Thanksgiving Day 2012. The retired State Department security engineer told police that, after the repeated break-ins, he was so fearful that he installed recording devices in his house.

Glass breaking and footsteps could be heard on the recordings. According to Pam Louwagie, a reporter with the Minneapolis Star Tribune, the tapes captured the moments of the fatal shootings.

“The first couple of gunshots you hear are just two loud bangs, and then you hear Nick Brady groaning,” Louwagie said.

After another bang, Smith’s voice could be heard.

“You’re dead,” he said.

“And soon after that, you can hear a tarp rustling, and it sounds like he’s dragging Nick Brady across the carpet,” Louwagie said.

Minutes later, when Kifer went into the basement, perhaps looking for Brady, Smith apparently shot her too, then quickly said, “Oh, sorry about that.”

But, prosecutors said, he didn’t stop there, firing amid Kifer’s screams.

And how can it possibly be premedited?? He didn't know there would be another break-in; how could he? Wouldn't the prosecution have to prove that he knew they would be breaking in?

'You're Dead,' Minn. Man Said After Shooting Teen Intruder - ABC News

Mindful of Meursault in Camus' "The Stranger", and remember Meursault was executed.

Of course that was fiction and we will never know what was in the current killers heart.

What would a reasonable person do when they hear breakage of glass and footsteps in their home? I would hope I would think before using lethal force, seek a safe haven or exit the home and call the authorities; if confronted show the weapon and give the burglar/victim a moment to decide if he or she wants to live or die.

If I lived in a neighborhood where such break-ins were common, and I had previously been invaded I would do more for my safety then rely on a gun. A lock on my bedroom door, a cell phone by my bed and a good size dog sleeping on a large pillow at the foot of my bed seem reasonable precautions.

I often wonder, reading the comments on this message board after Zimmerman and whenever a citizen kills another, if some of those who post here don't dream of riding a big wave, hitting a walk-off homerun or staring in a Broadway Play, and instead dream that they are the hero when they shot and kill another human being.

 

[Missourian]

I'm kind of surprised he's even being tried. They were IN his HOUSE.

The jurors heard the dramatic audio recordings Tuesday involving the homeowner who said he feared for his life after several previous break-ins.

Byron Smith, 65, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the slayings of cousins Nick Brady, 17, and Haile Kifer, 18, on Thanksgiving Day 2012. The retired State Department security engineer told police that, after the repeated break-ins, he was so fearful that he installed recording devices in his house.

Glass breaking and footsteps could be heard on the recordings. According to Pam Louwagie, a reporter with the Minneapolis Star Tribune, the tapes captured the moments of the fatal shootings.

“The first couple of gunshots you hear are just two loud bangs, and then you hear Nick Brady groaning,” Louwagie said.

After another bang, Smith’s voice could be heard.

“You’re dead,” he said.

“And soon after that, you can hear a tarp rustling, and it sounds like he’s dragging Nick Brady across the carpet,” Louwagie said.

Minutes later, when Kifer went into the basement, perhaps looking for Brady, Smith apparently shot her too, then quickly said, “Oh, sorry about that.”

But, prosecutors said, he didn’t stop there, firing amid Kifer’s screams.

And how can it possibly be premedited?? He didn't know there would be another break-in; how could he? Wouldn't the prosecution have to prove that he knew they would be breaking in?

'You're Dead,' Minn. Man Said After Shooting Teen Intruder - ABC News

Mindful of Meursault in Camus' "The Stranger", and remember Meursault was executed.

Of course that was fiction and we will never know what was in the current killers heart.

What would a reasonable person do when they hear breakage of glass and footsteps in their home? I would hope I would think before using lethal force, seek a safe haven or exit the home and call the authorities; if confronted show the weapon and give the burglar/victim a moment to decide if he or she wants to live or die.

If I lived in a neighborhood where such break-ins were common, and I had previously been invaded I would do more for my safety then rely on a gun. A lock on my bedroom door, a cell phone by my bed and a good size dog sleeping on a large pillow at the foot of my bed seem reasonable precautions.

I often wonder, reading the comments on this message board after Zimmerman and whenever a citizen kills another, if some of those who post here don't dream of riding a big wave, hitting a walk-off homerun or staring in a Broadway Play, and instead dream that they are the hero when they shot and kill another human being.

After reading the comments after Zimmerman, I concluded what they really want is not to be prosecuted after defending themselves by a bunch of monday morning quarterbacks with a victim complex.

 

[martybegan]

The finishing shot(s) for each are the premeditation.

He could have called when he heard the noises.

He could have called after shooting the boy.

You can't pre-meditate in the heat of the moment.

Pre-meditation requires planning, and a decided effort to kill someone. One cannot plan and pre-mediate someone breaking into ones house.

 

[Pennywise]

Based on what I read, 1st degree murder is the correct charge and assuming the trial was as clear cut as the short news story, I would have voted to convict.

It became premeditated after the first shots disabled the burglars. He made the decision at that point to kill them.

I love the happy pictures the press loves to show of criminals, BTW. Those smiling kids were breaking the law, not that they deserved to die, but that's life (and death). I suspect their story can be a good lesson for future idiots about breaking into the wrong place.

 

[R.D.]

I'd convict him

 

[Missourian]

I'd like to hear the audio for myself before coming to any definite conclusions...as we all know, the news media cannot be trusted.

That said, there is not enough information, even with the audio, to make a determination.

I will say, based on the article, I think there is sufficient evidence to substantiate the charge of 1st degree murder.

 

[martybegan]

Based on what I read, 1st degree murder is the correct charge and assuming the trial was as clear cut as the short news story, I would have voted to convict.

It became premeditated after the first shots disabled the burglars. He made the decision at that point to kill them.

I love the happy pictures the press loves to show of criminals, BTW. Those smiling kids were breaking the law, not that they deserved to die, but that's life (and death). I suspect their story can be a good lesson for future idiots about breaking into the wrong place.

You can't pre-meditate during the altercation. So if a man walked into a bedroom and saw his wife getting plowed by some other guy, if he shoots right away its heat of the moment, but if he waits 2-3 minutes and stews, its suddenly pre-meditated?

The original shooting had just happened, he was still under duress. In my example if the husband waited a day or two, then ambushed the other guy, THAT would be pre-mediated. The husband had a significant amount of time to think of his actions, then to plan the murder.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The finishing shot(s) for each are the premeditation.

He could have called when he heard the noises.

He could have called after shooting the boy.

You can't pre-meditate in the heat of the moment.

Pre-meditation requires planning, and a decided effort to kill someone. One cannot plan and pre-mediate someone breaking into ones house.

Premeditation can be done in an instant, I would think.

For instance, one could think, as the boy lies there incapable of resistance, "I am going to kill him as an example so that no one else will rob me."

The "sorry about that" shows a callous depravity for human life.

 

[Pennywise]

Based on what I read, 1st degree murder is the correct charge and assuming the trial was as clear cut as the short news story, I would have voted to convict.

It became premeditated after the first shots disabled the burglars. He made the decision at that point to kill them.

I love the happy pictures the press loves to show of criminals, BTW. Those smiling kids were breaking the law, not that they deserved to die, but that's life (and death). I suspect their story can be a good lesson for future idiots about breaking into the wrong place.

You can't pre-meditate during the altercation. So if a man walked into a bedroom and saw his wife getting plowed by some other guy, if he shoots right away its heat of the moment, but if he waits 2-3 minutes and stews, its suddenly pre-meditated?

The original shooting had just happened, he was still under duress. In my example if the husband waited a day or two, then ambushed the other guy, THAT would be pre-mediated. The husband had a significant amount of time to think of his actions, then to plan the murder.

You make a valid argument and that's why we have jury trials. Your opinion on his state of mind is as valid as my own.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The finishing shot(s) for each are the premeditation.

He could have called when he heard the noises.

He could have called after shooting the boy.

You can't pre-meditate in the heat of the moment.

Pre-meditation requires planning, and a decided effort to kill someone. One cannot plan and pre-mediate someone breaking into ones house.

Premeditation can be done in an instant, I would think.

For instance, one could think, as the boy lies there incapable of resistance, "I am going to kill him as an example so that no one else will rob me."

The "sorry about that" shows a callous depravity for human life.

If you don't want to get dead then don't break into another man's home.

I have no sympathy for criminal scum bag pieces of shit.

 

[JakeStarkey]

This is not about sympathy for the perps, this is about the Rule of Law vs the Rule of Man.

 

[martybegan]

The finishing shot(s) for each are the premeditation.

He could have called when he heard the noises.

He could have called after shooting the boy.

You can't pre-meditate in the heat of the moment.

Pre-meditation requires planning, and a decided effort to kill someone. One cannot plan and pre-mediate someone breaking into ones house.

Premeditation can be done in an instant, I would think.

For instance, one could think, as the boy lies there incapable of resistance, "I am going to kill him as an example so that no one else will rob me."

The "sorry about that" shows a callous depravity for human life.

That's not pre-meditation. Also you really can't prove what someone is thinking in a court of law. You can prove planning, scheduling, and setting up something, which shows pre-meditation.

 

[martybegan]

Based on what I read, 1st degree murder is the correct charge and assuming the trial was as clear cut as the short news story, I would have voted to convict.

It became premeditated after the first shots disabled the burglars. He made the decision at that point to kill them.

I love the happy pictures the press loves to show of criminals, BTW. Those smiling kids were breaking the law, not that they deserved to die, but that's life (and death). I suspect their story can be a good lesson for future idiots about breaking into the wrong place.

You can't pre-meditate during the altercation. So if a man walked into a bedroom and saw his wife getting plowed by some other guy, if he shoots right away its heat of the moment, but if he waits 2-3 minutes and stews, its suddenly pre-meditated?

The original shooting had just happened, he was still under duress. In my example if the husband waited a day or two, then ambushed the other guy, THAT would be pre-mediated. The husband had a significant amount of time to think of his actions, then to plan the murder.

You make a valid argument and that's why we have jury trials. Your opinion on his state of mind is as valid as my own.

if they wanted a conviction, they would go for manslaughter. There is just too much mitigation to get murder one.

 

[Esmeralda]

It seems to me he killed them in cold blood. Why didn't he call the police instead of sitting there waiting for them? There was 11 minutes between the time he killed the boy and the girl. The police could have arrived in that time. If his first call specified he'd just shot a burglar, the police would have made a beeline for the place. The second kid did not have to be shot much less murdered. Her death was like an execution. The fact is, death is not the punishment for housebreaking or burglary. He seems to have taken pleasure in killing these kids.

He should go to prison for premeditated murder.

If he had enough money to put up a recording device, he could also have put in some kind of alarm system. He could have a guard dog on the property. He could put a lock on the bedroom door and go there and wait for the police. Lots of options are available instead of murdering someone. He could even move to a safer neighborhood.