More Christians are conservative meanwhile Christ was liberal...

[PK1]

---
1) Paul wrote he was a Pharisee, a group of Jews who represented the common people. The elite Sadducees were the upper class.

The Pharisees were part of the ruling class. As such, Saul, you do know that was his name then, had a lot of power, enough that he was given authority to imprison and persecute Christians. Yeah, that's going to make him want to be one of them.

2) Paul was well educated and a religious zealot. Having a big ego with a need to be a leader/converter, his personality was well suited for debate, persistence, and social vindication, even if he had to tolerate abuse.

Again, wrong. Saul was eager to PERSECUTE, not debate or persuade. Note that he was ferreting out Christians wherever he could find them, and taking action against them, not engaging them in debate.

3) His eventual successful leadership based on his "new" Jewish/Gentile gospel, using persuasive references to Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and Son of God (& his BS "vision" of J's resurrection), reinforced his zealous personality and tolerance for abuse from the traditional Jews and Romans.

Bogus on its face. Egomaniacs typically do not set themselves up for persecution. Instead, they set themselves up at the highest pinnacle of power they can reach. I do not recall Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, Napoleon, etc identifying with the cultures they overthrew, relinquishing the reins of power, and attempting to gain influence by leading those overthrown. Saul already HAD power, and to become one of the Christians was to relinquish that power, not increase it.

4) Evidence of his behavioral reinforcement:
Paul founded several churches in Asia Minor and Europe, using his status as both a Jew & Roman citizen to advantage in his ministry to uneducated, confused & god-fearing Jewish and Roman audiences.

Actually, the churches included people from all segments of society. Paul would debate and preach openly. So much so, in fact, that he, as I mentioned before, had the snot beat out of him on multiple occasions. Hardly a hallmark of an egomaniac who already held a lot of power.

From a social science perspective (cultural anthropology, sociology, politics, psychology), the Bible stories are reflective of ancient mythology mixed with embellished autobiographical writings.

I'm sure you'd like to continue believing that, but your "analysis" of Paul is, quite simply, about as far off the mark as is possible.

---
The Pharisees were NOT part of the ruling class. To say they were simply discredits your arguments about Paul's motivations.

Within the hierarchy of Jewish sectarianism during the Jesus era, the Sadducees represented an aristocratic, wealthy, and traditional elite, in contrast to the Pharisees and the Essenes.

Actually, they were very powerful religious figures.

Within Pharisaic tradition, Paul/Saul learned how to make the mohair with which tents were made [Acts 18:1-3]. Later as a Christian missionary, that trade (& tent making) became a means of financial support for him that he practiced ... until he received funds from converted Gentiles & non-aristocratic Jews, who wanted to believe the crap about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and/or "son of God", and they will be "saved" if they believe ... and cough up financial support.
.

He received support while he was in prison. Can you find where he demanded it so he could stop making and selling tents? Please do.

None of this, BTW, lends any credence to your insane belief that he thought becoming a Christian was a good power move.

---
Unless Muslim, my understanding is that religious leaders don't demand payments for their preaching; it would look bad to do so. However, they will be glad to "suggest" they need your financial support. They still get their "donations" ... or you go to hell

Anyone saying that is a charlatan and cheat. God doesn't like that.

"Insane belief"? That describes perfectly Paul's claim about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and "son of God" .

You seem to be more worried about Yeshua being the Messiah than you are about Paul. Wonder why that is.

Hey, no one here knows the accurate details about events from 2,000 years ago. The Bible is one interpretation with a subjective bent.
I was simply offering an alternative hypothesis to the ridiculous claim of seeing a "resurrection".
If anyone claimed that today, would they be taken seriously by sane people?

Actually, people do claim that today, and are taken very seriously, especially by the ones that see the dead raised to life.

So, IOW, even though you were NOT present, you feel qualified to pass judgement on an experience someone else had at a different time and place, and qualified to come up with an extremely UNLIKELY "alternative hypothesis" that requires an immense leap of illogic. Is that about the size of it?

---
You have personally witnessed a "resurrection"?
I have not, and I don't know of anyone who has.
However, you are right, I cannot pass judgment on other's subjective experiences.
So, if Mohammad said Allah spoke to him, then we should accept that too, right?

I prefer to deal with objective reality.
Church of Reality

 

[PostmodernProph]

There are many things we all accept as truth without proof. Yet, apparently only God requires such a high standard of proof.

Like what? I need proof for everything.

except this....."we are all born the same, and die the same too".....you said you don't need proof for that.....

We are all born the same and all expire the same way as well. I'm making an observation.

really?......how many people have you observed dying?.......

Why? You've observed people going to different places?

you've never observed where anyone has gone........deal with it......

 

[Avatar4321]

lol....a guy on the internet told me.......

Don't feel bad that you're poor, someone has to drive the bus.

actually I did use to drive a school bus, back while I was in law school.....great way to pay tuition.....

.
and the Spirit is - bound by the universe - Justice is a certainty ?

not sure what science has to do with a need for proving the Almighty ....

.

I think he meant that his god isn't bound by the laws of sanity.

. I think he meant that his god isn't bound by the laws of sanity.

you seem as focused on "God" as much as the christians, what is the barrier (sanity) to just any Spirit freely becoming a part of the Everlasting - none, a free ride or you are just going to die ?

.

It doesn't matter what you believe, we're all going to the same place, wherever that is.

What makes you think you deserve the reward of those that obey while you mock? How would that be just?

Because there's no proof that obeying a book does anything for anyone when they die. Please try again.

Jesus taught we will know the truth of the doctrine by doing it. If you believe in science isn't it your obligation to test this theory?

 

[Avatar4321]

lol.....atheists get dumber every year.......

Not an atheist. Wrong AGAIN!

you aren't bright enough to even know what you are......

You're not bright enough to think for yourself, you need everything spoon fed to you from the bible.

Says the person who can't think enough for himself to read the books he complains about and understand what they actually teach. And can't understand why someone might be persuaded intellectually to live the principles of a book he never read.

I've read the books, they are full of fairy tales that for the most part don't even make sense.

Now you're claiming you've read them and that you haven't because they were too confusing and you didn't understand them. Which one is it? You need to pick one.

And if you don't understand a book how exactly does that disprove the book rather tell more about your lack of effort in understanding?

 

[Avatar4321]

and you believe the fact there is no proof we go to different places is proof we go to the same place?......

We all go to the same place until proven otherwise. Go for it, prove it.

???.....how do you intend to prove we all go the the same place unless proven otherwise.....what if each of us goes to a distinctly unique place unless proven otherwise.......what if 12% of us go to Manitoba unless proven otherwise?.......what if some of us come back as Buddha and you come back as a cockroach unless proven otherwise......

You're speculating. Please provide proof to your theories. Actually, nobody knows where we go, but I see no reason to believe the bible. We are all born the same way, we all die the same way.

please provide proof that I need to provide proof for my theories.......there is no "default" position in which if I cannot prove different things happen it is given that the same things happen......sorry.....

Like I said, we are all born the same, and die the same too. It's like you're trying to argue that we get born from different places depending on whether we're a good soul or not. For someone who claims to have gone to law school. your arguments get thrown out of the court of common sense every fucking time.

A lawyer making an argument for justice. And a guilty man making excuses why there shouldn't be justice. Neither are really shocking.

 

[Avatar4321]

The Pharisees were part of the ruling class. As such, Saul, you do know that was his name then, had a lot of power, enough that he was given authority to imprison and persecute Christians. Yeah, that's going to make him want to be one of them.

Again, wrong. Saul was eager to PERSECUTE, not debate or persuade. Note that he was ferreting out Christians wherever he could find them, and taking action against them, not engaging them in debate.

Bogus on its face. Egomaniacs typically do not set themselves up for persecution. Instead, they set themselves up at the highest pinnacle of power they can reach. I do not recall Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, Napoleon, etc identifying with the cultures they overthrew, relinquishing the reins of power, and attempting to gain influence by leading those overthrown. Saul already HAD power, and to become one of the Christians was to relinquish that power, not increase it.

Actually, the churches included people from all segments of society. Paul would debate and preach openly. So much so, in fact, that he, as I mentioned before, had the snot beat out of him on multiple occasions. Hardly a hallmark of an egomaniac who already held a lot of power.

I'm sure you'd like to continue believing that, but your "analysis" of Paul is, quite simply, about as far off the mark as is possible.

---
The Pharisees were NOT part of the ruling class. To say they were simply discredits your arguments about Paul's motivations.

Within the hierarchy of Jewish sectarianism during the Jesus era, the Sadducees represented an aristocratic, wealthy, and traditional elite, in contrast to the Pharisees and the Essenes.

Actually, they were very powerful religious figures.

Within Pharisaic tradition, Paul/Saul learned how to make the mohair with which tents were made [Acts 18:1-3]. Later as a Christian missionary, that trade (& tent making) became a means of financial support for him that he practiced ... until he received funds from converted Gentiles & non-aristocratic Jews, who wanted to believe the crap about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and/or "son of God", and they will be "saved" if they believe ... and cough up financial support.
.

He received support while he was in prison. Can you find where he demanded it so he could stop making and selling tents? Please do.

None of this, BTW, lends any credence to your insane belief that he thought becoming a Christian was a good power move.

---
Unless Muslim, my understanding is that religious leaders don't demand payments for their preaching; it would look bad to do so. However, they will be glad to "suggest" they need your financial support. They still get their "donations" ... or you go to hell

"Insane belief"? That describes perfectly Paul's claim about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and "son of God" .

Hey, no one here knows the accurate details about events from 2,000 years ago. The Bible is one interpretation with a subjective bent.
I was simply offering an alternative hypothesis to the ridiculous claim of seeing a "resurrection".
If anyone claimed that today, would they be taken seriously by sane people?

There is an easy way to know the truth. Humble yourself and ask God. The Holy Ghost will teach you the truth of all things.

---
"to know the truth"?
I strongly doubt you know the "truth", but I'm sure you know how to fantasize.
I recommend that you take a class in academic psychology.
.

You might not know but you shouldn't presume everyone is in the same circumstances as you. You should also seek to escape ignorance

 

[Avatar4321]

You have already admitted that you are willing to disbelieve your own experience. Can you then prove that you in fact live in reality? I submit that you cannot, yet you live as though you do. Can you prove that any person is trustworthy? No, you act on faith that they will not betray you. Can you prove that your car will not explode the next time you start it? No, again you act on faith. Likewise, I do not have to prove God exists, because I trust that He does, and act on that faith. When I do, He is faithful to do what He promised to do.

God never promised to do anything. That came from a man written book.

Interesting. He's kept His promises to me. How about all that stuff you take on faith without proof, after saying you require proof for everything?

You've deluded yourself into thinking that a book has kept its promises to you. That's kooky.

Absolutely not. The book doesn't keep the promises, God does.

Promises from a book. Get over it, it's made up by men.

And yet if you keep the promises you make they do exactly what they say they will.

For example if you ask God He gives you wisdom as He promises

If you pay tithing He proves Himself by pouring out and outpouring of blessings

The laws of heaven are straightforward and when you obey the laws given you receive the promises attached to those laws.

If you eat right, your body is healthy.

If you work hard you prosper.

Etc.

 

[Avatar4321]

You have already admitted that you are willing to disbelieve your own experience. Can you then prove that you in fact live in reality? I submit that you cannot, yet you live as though you do. Can you prove that any person is trustworthy? No, you act on faith that they will not betray you. Can you prove that your car will not explode the next time you start it? No, again you act on faith. Likewise, I do not have to prove God exists, because I trust that He does, and act on that faith. When I do, He is faithful to do what He promised to do.

God never promised to do anything. That came from a man written book.

Interesting. He's kept His promises to me. How about all that stuff you take on faith without proof, after saying you require proof for everything?

You've deluded yourself into thinking that a book has kept its promises to you. That's kooky.

Absolutely not. The book doesn't keep the promises, God does.

Promises from a book. Get over it, it's made up by men.

And yet if you keep the promises you make they do exactly what they say they will.

For example if you ask God He gives you wisdom as He promises

If you pay tithing He proves Himself by pouring out and outpouring of blessings

The laws of heaven are straightforward and when you obey the laws given you receive the promises attached to those laws.

If you eat right, your body is healthy.

If you work hard you prosper.

Etc.

 

[Taz]

QUOTE="hadit, post: 12113309, member: 44342"]

And when proven wrong I adjust my thinking as well, no problem. Prove to me that your God exists in a real, tangible way and I'll believe it. No problem.

I don't have to. He'll do that Himself. Of course, it may be too late for you at that point, but that's your choice.

So you believe in something that you know you can't prove. Now THAT'S lame.

You do that every day.

As long as you admit that you know you can't prove your God, my job is done here.

I don't think I've ever said I could prove God's existence to your standards.[/QUOTE]
My standard is to prove that your God is real.

God never promised to do anything. That came from a man written book.

Interesting. He's kept His promises to me. How about all that stuff you take on faith without proof, after saying you require proof for everything?

You've deluded yourself into thinking that a book has kept its promises to you. That's kooky.

Absolutely not. The book doesn't keep the promises, God does.

Promises from a book. Get over it, it's made up by men.

And yet if you keep the promises you make they do exactly what they say they will.

For example if you ask God He gives you wisdom as He promises

If you pay tithing He proves Himself by pouring out and outpouring of blessings

The laws of heaven are straightforward and when you obey the laws given you receive the promises attached to those laws.

If you eat right, your body is healthy.

If you work hard you prosper.

Etc.

sorry, but those are promises written by men, not a god. EPIC FAIL.
You pay money to get blessings? That's possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What would your God need with money? Nothing, that's what. You got scammed by men for your money.

 

[Taz]

Not an atheist. Wrong AGAIN!

you aren't bright enough to even know what you are......

You're not bright enough to think for yourself, you need everything spoon fed to you from the bible.

Says the person who can't think enough for himself to read the books he complains about and understand what they actually teach. And can't understand why someone might be persuaded intellectually to live the principles of a book he never read.

I've read the books, they are full of fairy tales that for the most part don't even make sense.

Now you're claiming you've read them and that you haven't because they were too confusing and you didn't understand them. Which one is it? You need to pick one.

And if you don't understand a book how exactly does that disprove the book rather tell more about your lack of effort in understanding?

I've read them and they are nonsense, especially the Mormon book. I shouldn't need someone to explain a book to me to find God, now THAT makes no sense.

 

[Taz]

Don't feel bad that you're poor, someone has to drive the bus.

actually I did use to drive a school bus, back while I was in law school.....great way to pay tuition.....

I think he meant that his god isn't bound by the laws of sanity.

. I think he meant that his god isn't bound by the laws of sanity.

you seem as focused on "God" as much as the christians, what is the barrier (sanity) to just any Spirit freely becoming a part of the Everlasting - none, a free ride or you are just going to die ?

.

It doesn't matter what you believe, we're all going to the same place, wherever that is.

What makes you think you deserve the reward of those that obey while you mock? How would that be just?

Because there's no proof that obeying a book does anything for anyone when they die. Please try again.

Jesus taught we will know the truth of the doctrine by doing it. If you believe in science isn't it your obligation to test this theory?

Perhaps, where did Jesus get his science degree? And in what field?

 

[Taz]

Like what? I need proof for everything.

except this....."we are all born the same, and die the same too".....you said you don't need proof for that.....

We are all born the same and all expire the same way as well. I'm making an observation.

really?......how many people have you observed dying?.......

Why? You've observed people going to different places?

you've never observed where anyone has gone........deal with it......

So you feel good just making something up and writing a book about it?

 

[PostmodernProph]

except this....."we are all born the same, and die the same too".....you said you don't need proof for that.....

We are all born the same and all expire the same way as well. I'm making an observation.

really?......how many people have you observed dying?.......

Why? You've observed people going to different places?

you've never observed where anyone has gone........deal with it......

So you feel good just making something up and writing a book about it?

Non sequitur......did you want to deflect from the fact you've observed nothing?......

 

[Avatar4321]

you aren't bright enough to even know what you are......

You're not bright enough to think for yourself, you need everything spoon fed to you from the bible.

Says the person who can't think enough for himself to read the books he complains about and understand what they actually teach. And can't understand why someone might be persuaded intellectually to live the principles of a book he never read.

I've read the books, they are full of fairy tales that for the most part don't even make sense.

Now you're claiming you've read them and that you haven't because they were too confusing and you didn't understand them. Which one is it? You need to pick one.

And if you don't understand a book how exactly does that disprove the book rather tell more about your lack of effort in understanding?

I've read them and they are nonsense, especially the Mormon book. I shouldn't need someone to explain a book to me to find God, now THAT makes no sense.

No you should be able to comprehend plain English without anyone explaining a thing to you. The fact that you don't isn't a criticism of the text, but your literacy.

 

[Avatar4321]

actually I did use to drive a school bus, back while I was in law school.....great way to pay tuition.....

you seem as focused on "God" as much as the christians, what is the barrier (sanity) to just any Spirit freely becoming a part of the Everlasting - none, a free ride or you are just going to die ?

.

It doesn't matter what you believe, we're all going to the same place, wherever that is.

What makes you think you deserve the reward of those that obey while you mock? How would that be just?

Because there's no proof that obeying a book does anything for anyone when they die. Please try again.

Jesus taught we will know the truth of the doctrine by doing it. If you believe in science isn't it your obligation to test this theory?

Perhaps, where did Jesus get his science degree? And in what field?

Since when do degrees prove a thing?

By the way He is a master in theology. And He created the laws of the universe by which science is governed.

 

[hadit]

The Pharisees were part of the ruling class. As such, Saul, you do know that was his name then, had a lot of power, enough that he was given authority to imprison and persecute Christians. Yeah, that's going to make him want to be one of them.

Again, wrong. Saul was eager to PERSECUTE, not debate or persuade. Note that he was ferreting out Christians wherever he could find them, and taking action against them, not engaging them in debate.

Bogus on its face. Egomaniacs typically do not set themselves up for persecution. Instead, they set themselves up at the highest pinnacle of power they can reach. I do not recall Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, Napoleon, etc identifying with the cultures they overthrew, relinquishing the reins of power, and attempting to gain influence by leading those overthrown. Saul already HAD power, and to become one of the Christians was to relinquish that power, not increase it.

Actually, the churches included people from all segments of society. Paul would debate and preach openly. So much so, in fact, that he, as I mentioned before, had the snot beat out of him on multiple occasions. Hardly a hallmark of an egomaniac who already held a lot of power.

I'm sure you'd like to continue believing that, but your "analysis" of Paul is, quite simply, about as far off the mark as is possible.

---
The Pharisees were NOT part of the ruling class. To say they were simply discredits your arguments about Paul's motivations.

Within the hierarchy of Jewish sectarianism during the Jesus era, the Sadducees represented an aristocratic, wealthy, and traditional elite, in contrast to the Pharisees and the Essenes.

Actually, they were very powerful religious figures.

Within Pharisaic tradition, Paul/Saul learned how to make the mohair with which tents were made [Acts 18:1-3]. Later as a Christian missionary, that trade (& tent making) became a means of financial support for him that he practiced ... until he received funds from converted Gentiles & non-aristocratic Jews, who wanted to believe the crap about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and/or "son of God", and they will be "saved" if they believe ... and cough up financial support.
.

He received support while he was in prison. Can you find where he demanded it so he could stop making and selling tents? Please do.

None of this, BTW, lends any credence to your insane belief that he thought becoming a Christian was a good power move.

---
Unless Muslim, my understanding is that religious leaders don't demand payments for their preaching; it would look bad to do so. However, they will be glad to "suggest" they need your financial support. They still get their "donations" ... or you go to hell

Anyone saying that is a charlatan and cheat. God doesn't like that.

"Insane belief"? That describes perfectly Paul's claim about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and "son of God" .

You seem to be more worried about Yeshua being the Messiah than you are about Paul. Wonder why that is.

Hey, no one here knows the accurate details about events from 2,000 years ago. The Bible is one interpretation with a subjective bent.
I was simply offering an alternative hypothesis to the ridiculous claim of seeing a "resurrection".
If anyone claimed that today, would they be taken seriously by sane people?

Actually, people do claim that today, and are taken very seriously, especially by the ones that see the dead raised to life.

So, IOW, even though you were NOT present, you feel qualified to pass judgement on an experience someone else had at a different time and place, and qualified to come up with an extremely UNLIKELY "alternative hypothesis" that requires an immense leap of illogic. Is that about the size of it?

---
You have personally witnessed a "resurrection"?
I have not, and I don't know of anyone who has.
However, you are right, I cannot pass judgment on other's subjective experiences.
So, if Mohammad said Allah spoke to him, then we should accept that too, right?

I prefer to deal with objective reality.
Church of Reality

What you consider objective is subjective. IOW, if it didn't happen to you, it didn't happen.

Tribesman 1: I was on a long hunting trip and saw a giant silver bird flying without moving its wings. It pooped out something that burst into flames.

Tribesman 2: You are obviously insane. After Og over there said the same thing last year, our scientists have proven that could never happen.

 

[Taz]

We are all born the same and all expire the same way as well. I'm making an observation.

really?......how many people have you observed dying?.......

Why? You've observed people going to different places?

you've never observed where anyone has gone........deal with it......

So you feel good just making something up and writing a book about it?

Non sequitur......did you want to deflect from the fact you've observed nothing?......

So you know for a fact that I've never seen anyone die? Did you read that in a book?

 

[Taz]

You're not bright enough to think for yourself, you need everything spoon fed to you from the bible.

Says the person who can't think enough for himself to read the books he complains about and understand what they actually teach. And can't understand why someone might be persuaded intellectually to live the principles of a book he never read.

I've read the books, they are full of fairy tales that for the most part don't even make sense.

Now you're claiming you've read them and that you haven't because they were too confusing and you didn't understand them. Which one is it? You need to pick one.

And if you don't understand a book how exactly does that disprove the book rather tell more about your lack of effort in understanding?

I've read them and they are nonsense, especially the Mormon book. I shouldn't need someone to explain a book to me to find God, now THAT makes no sense.

No you should be able to comprehend plain English without anyone explaining a thing to you. The fact that you don't isn't a criticism of the text, but your literacy.

Ok, so I'm dumb, thanks for the insult. You learn that in church?
If your God was real, I wouldn't need a book to find it, that's absurdly beyond dumb.

 

[Taz]

Jesus

It doesn't matter what you believe, we're all going to the same place, wherever that is.

What makes you think you deserve the reward of those that obey while you mock? How would that be just?

Because there's no proof that obeying a book does anything for anyone when they die. Please try again.

Jesus taught we will know the truth of the doctrine by doing it. If you believe in science isn't it your obligation to test this theory?

Perhaps, where did Jesus get his science degree? And in what field?

Since when do degrees prove a thing?

By the way He is a master in theology. And He created the laws of the universe by which science is governed.

Jesus was god's gofer, he didn't invent anything. And you pretend to know more than I do? Ummm.... No.

 

[PostmodernProph]

really?......how many people have you observed dying?.......

Why? You've observed people going to different places?

you've never observed where anyone has gone........deal with it......

So you feel good just making something up and writing a book about it?

Non sequitur......did you want to deflect from the fact you've observed nothing?......

So you know for a fact that I've never seen anyone die? Did you read that in a book?

not the question fool.......you have never seen where they have gone.......perhaps you've seen what they left behind......