Zone1 Mormons who have apostatized or stopped going to Church

[Cougarbear]

Your words...."The Journal of Discourses and Mormon Doctrine books are NOT doctrine". I don't think the problem is on my end. Perhaps you better call an elder or a prophet to sort it out.

They are books written by people without the sustaining consent vote of the Church members. Nor, the Quorum of the 12 Apostles and the First Presidency. They are not scripture and this means not doctrine. They are helpful for understanding points of doctrine but are only the opinions of the writer. Everything a prophet or apostle says or writes is not doctrine. That’s why when you spew statements from books other than the standard works of doctrine, the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, and say this is what we believe as doctrine you are lying and bearing false witness.
It’s okay to ask me what this means and what I think of this or that. But to say I have to believe something is true not in the standard scriptures is dumb and ignorant.

 

[TruthNotBS]

So according to Scripture I am saved by faith in Jesus alone.

You ignored everything I wrote in that post, with a ton of evidence, from Christian Evangelical sources, that faith isn't just a mental assent but includes obedience, following the commandments of Jesus and His righteous apostles. Ignore my post, but others won't and they'll see right through your insincere rhetoric against the LDS.

 

[TruthNotBS]

They are books written by people without the sustaining consent vote of the Church members. Nor, the Quorum of the 12 Apostles and the First Presidency. They are not scripture and this means not doctrine. They are helpful for understanding points of doctrine but are only the opinions of the writer. Everything a prophet or apostle says or writes is not doctrine. That’s why when you spew statements from books other than the standard works of doctrine, the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, and say this is what we believe as doctrine you are lying and bearing false witness.
It’s okay to ask me what this means and what I think of this or that. But to say I have to believe something is true not in the standard scriptures is dumb and ignorant.

There's no good will in their inquiries, it comes from a place of rancor and insecurity. He has an ax to grind.

 

[Cougarbear]

There's no good will in their inquiries, it comes from a place of rancor and insecurity. He has an ax to grind.

Yep, I can’t believe they are this dense not to understand simple words and concepts. Too bad they aren’t willing to be sincere. They may learn something and feel the Holy Ghost.

 

[BS Filter]

They are books written by people without the sustaining consent vote of the Church members. Nor, the Quorum of the 12 Apostles and the First Presidency. They are not scripture and this means not doctrine. They are helpful for understanding points of doctrine but are only the opinions of the writer. Everything a prophet or apostle says or writes is not doctrine. That’s why when you spew statements from books other than the standard works of doctrine, the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, and say this is what we believe as doctrine you are lying and bearing false witness.
It’s okay to ask me what this means and what I think of this or that. But to say I have to believe something is true not in the standard scriptures is dumb and ignorant

The Bible says there is One God. You believe there are many God's with their own creation. Correct?

 

[BS Filter]

You ignored everything I wrote in that post, with a ton of evidence, from Christian Evangelical sources, that faith isn't just a mental assent but includes obedience, following the commandments of Jesus and His righteous apostles. Ignore my post, but others won't and they'll see right through your insincere rhetoric against the LDS.

Scripture says I am saved by faith in Jesus, period. "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved". Tell me what work the thief on the cross did to earn his salvation.

 

[Cougarbear]

The Bible says there is One God. You believe there are many God's with their own creation. Correct?

So, your answer is to switch topics. You have been wrong while falsebearing against your neighbors.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Scripture says I am saved by faith in Jesus, period. "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved". Tell me what work the thief on the cross did to earn his salvation.

Your assertion that salvation is solely through faith in Jesus, while scripturally sound, requires a deeper understanding of what "faith" truly encompasses within the Christian doctrine. The phrase "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" indeed highlights the necessity of faith, but it does not negate the biblical teaching that genuine faith manifests in obedience and good works.

Regarding the thief on the cross, his situation was indeed unique. He was in a position where he could not perform any works or partake in Christian practices like baptism or communion. His faith, expressed in his last moments, was genuine and accepted by Christ. However, this does not serve as a normative pattern for all believers. For those of us not in such extreme circumstances, the New Testament clearly teaches that faith is active and transformative.

The apostle James clearly states, "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (James 2:17). This doesn't mean that works earn salvation, but that true faith naturally leads to a change in actions and lifestyle. The transformation brought about by genuine faith will inevitably result in good works, as a fruit of that faith.

Furthermore, the concept of faith in the Bible, especially in the New Testament, is not limited to mere belief. The Greek word "pistis" (faith) involves trust, fidelity, and commitment. This is not just intellectual assent but a faithful, obedient relationship with Christ. As Martin Luther said, "faith is not an inert thing." It is active and living, leading to a life of obedience and devotion to Jesus Christ.

Your approach to faith as a lone endeavor, separate from the community of believers, contradicts the teachings of the New Testament. The apostle Paul, in Hebrews 10:25, admonishes believers not to forsake assembling together. Christian faith is not just a personal journey; it is a communal one, where believers encourage, support, and spur one another towards love and good deeds.

 

[BS Filter]

So, your answer is to switch topics. You have been wrong while falsebearing against your neighbors.

Answer the question.

 

[TruthNotBS]

The Bible says there is One God. You believe there are many God's with their own creation. Correct?

The Bible actually teaches that there are many gods but only One True God (capital G).

The word "true" in John 17:3 is used by Jesus when referring to his heavenly Father, in the sense of "source" or "original". Paul uses the same word in Hebrews 8:2 for the "true" tabernacle in heaven, not made with human hands. The word "true" in the sense that it is used in the above two passages, doesn't render what isn't true, "false", but rather not the original source. The heavenly Father is the only True God, but that doesn't make Jesus a false god. The tabernacle in heaven is the true one, but that doesn't make the earthly one an illegitimate tabernacle or temple.

 

[BS Filter]

Your assertion that salvation is solely through faith in Jesus, while scripturally sound, requires a deeper understanding of what "faith" truly encompasses within the Christian doctrine. The phrase "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" indeed highlights the necessity of faith, but it does not negate the biblical teaching that genuine faith manifests in obedience and good works.

Regarding the thief on the cross, his situation was indeed unique. He was in a position where he could not perform any works or partake in Christian practices like baptism or communion. His faith, expressed in his last moments, was genuine and accepted by Christ. However, this does not serve as a normative pattern for all believers. For those of us not in such extreme circumstances, the New Testament clearly teaches that faith is active and transformative.

The apostle James clearly states, "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (James 2:17). This doesn't mean that works earn salvation, but that true faith naturally leads to a change in actions and lifestyle. The transformation brought about by genuine faith will inevitably result in good works, as a fruit of that faith.

Furthermore, the concept of faith in the Bible, especially in the New Testament, is not limited to mere belief. The Greek word "pistis" (faith) involves trust, fidelity, and commitment. This is not just intellectual assent but a faithful, obedient relationship with Christ. As Martin Luther said, "faith is not an inert thing." It is active and living, leading to a life of obedience and devotion to Jesus Christ.

Your approach to faith as a lone endeavor, separate from the community of believers, contradicts the teachings of the New Testament. The apostle Paul, in Hebrews 10:25, admonishes believers not to forsake assembling together. Christian faith is not just a personal journey; it is a communal one, where believers encourage, support, and spur one another towards love and good deeds.

Salvation is not a gradual process. You either believe in your heart or you don't. God knows.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Salvation is not a gradual process. You either believe in your heart or you don't. God knows.

If you truly believe you will bear fruit and obey Jesus Christ. That's what the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach. You can pretend otherwise if you wish.

 

[Cougarbear]

Answer the question.

No. Why should I answer a question you have asked before and was answered? And, why debate or discuss someone who can’t read and with a logic capacity of an aardvark?

 

[BS Filter]

If you truly believe you will bear fruit and obey Jesus Christ. That's what the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach. You can pretend otherwise if you wish.

You are either saved or you aren't. That's what I believe.

 

[BS Filter]

No. Why should I answer a question you have asked before and was answered? And, why debate or discuss someone who can’t read and with a logic capacity of an aardvark?

You haven't answered this question. That's fine. I totally understand why you won't.

 

[onefour1]

Scripture says I am saved by faith in Jesus, period. "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved". Tell me what work the thief on the cross did to earn his salvation.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[BS Filter]

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is not talking about salvation. Many people are confused about this Scripture. What about this one.
we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Grace Alone.

 

[TruthNotBS]

You are either saved or you aren't. That's what I believe.

Scripture describes it as an event, a process, and something still yet to be fulfilled, finally completed when we are raised from the dead into our new spiritual bodies with the full nature of Christ. Paul wrote:

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling," (Philippians 2:12)

"Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.' As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.' Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called 'today,' that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.' For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief." (Hebrews 3:7-19, ESV)

 

[TruthNotBS]

This is not talking about salvation. Many people are confused about this Scripture. What about this one.
we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Grace Alone.

I already cited that in a previous post, the difference between my citation and yours is that I cited it in context, showing how good works follow genuine faith. Faith and works are intertwined. They have a symbiotic relationship. You can't have one without the other.

 

[BS Filter]

Scripture describes it as an event, a process, and something still yet to be fulfilled, finally completed when we are raised from the dead into our new spiritual bodies with the full nature of Christ. Paul wrote:

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling," (Philippians 2:12)

"Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.' As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.' Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called 'today,' that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.' For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief." (Hebrews 3:7-19, ESV)

Work out your salvation means to live your life as a redeemed believer. Ephesians says we are seated in heavenly places. Notice every verse in the NT thar says "in Christ"..."in Jesus".