MW advocates - what are the downsides of minimum wage?

[georgephillip]

This thread is addressed to supporters of minimum wage laws. Detractors claim that minimum wage causes unemployment and/or inflation. But most supporters will vigorously deny this. Yet they seem to set their sights pretty low when it comes to setting the level of minimum wage. I assume this is because they believe there is some downside to minimum wage, some reason to not raise it to $200/hr, but it seems they never want to talk about what that reason might be. Hopefully, someone will step up here, and clear the air.

Here is one possible formula that might produce a viable minimum wage across a country where median wages and the cost of living varies widely from one region to another:

The Case for a Minimum Wage Formula

"The solution to this conundrum—needing regional wage-setting but not having a good enough regional governance to do it—is to set the minimum wage federally, but do it in such a way that it varies from place to place.

"That is, replace the federal minimum wage level with a federal minimum wage formula.

"This would involve cutting the country up into various minimum-wage zones (perhaps based on metropolitan areas) and then running each zone's relevant economic indicators (such as median wages and cost of living) through a formula to determine what the minimum wage in that zone will be.

"The administration of this process could be handled by a federal agency such as the Department of Labor.

"As to what the formula should be, Arin Dube tends to suggest setting it at 50% of the median wage of each minimum-wage zone.

"This is the average for OECD countries, though a number of counties set it higher, such as in France, where it is 61% of the median wage."

Thanks George. You didn't exactly answer my question, but it's in interesting proposal. It would at least resolve the problems with regionally different costs of living.

The 50% of median wage target seems kind of arbitrary. Any idea what the rationale there is?

Apparently this UMass economist is the source of that 50% of median wage target figure; I'll keep digging.
Minimum Wage

 

[danielpalos]

If we adjusted our pay/expense system such that ANYONE working 40 earns would earn at least enough to live on we could still recompense MOST people with much MORE than poverty level wages.

What about jobs that aren't worth a living wage? Should those jobs be banned?

automate them.

Many are already being automated and have been for a long time. Had a teenager pump your gas for you lately?

There is no reason to subsidize Capitalists with cheap labor in our first world economy.

 

[danielpalos]

Then why all the squalling about a shut down if it was funded?

Ted Cruz's temper tantrum cost $26 billion

He was willing to fund everything but one program. Reid refused and temporarily slowed down the government, then ran around complaining about a shutdown.

Democrats were willing to fund everything

Republicans shut down government in a temper tantrum against healthcare

They lost

Then why did Reid sit on spending bills that would have done what you said they wanted? Had he passed them on to the Senate, there would have been no temporary slowdown.

A continuing resolution was up for a vote

Republicans squashed it

Tax Cut economics is only good enough to help the rich get richer, not give raises to the People.

 

[danielpalos]

This thread is addressed to supporters of minimum wage laws. Detractors claim that minimum wage causes unemployment and/or inflation. But most supporters will vigorously deny this. Yet they seem to set their sights pretty low when it comes to setting the level of minimum wage. I assume this is because they believe there is some downside to minimum wage, some reason to not raise it to $200/hr, but it seems they never want to talk about what that reason might be. Hopefully, someone will step up here, and clear the air.

Here is one possible formula that might produce a viable minimum wage across a country where median wages and the cost of living varies widely from one region to another:

The Case for a Minimum Wage Formula

"The solution to this conundrum—needing regional wage-setting but not having a good enough regional governance to do it—is to set the minimum wage federally, but do it in such a way that it varies from place to place.

"That is, replace the federal minimum wage level with a federal minimum wage formula.

"This would involve cutting the country up into various minimum-wage zones (perhaps based on metropolitan areas) and then running each zone's relevant economic indicators (such as median wages and cost of living) through a formula to determine what the minimum wage in that zone will be.

"The administration of this process could be handled by a federal agency such as the Department of Labor.

"As to what the formula should be, Arin Dube tends to suggest setting it at 50% of the median wage of each minimum-wage zone.

"This is the average for OECD countries, though a number of counties set it higher, such as in France, where it is 61% of the median wage."

Thanks George. You didn't exactly answer my question, but it's in interesting proposal. It would at least resolve the problems with regionally different costs of living.

The 50% of median wage target seems kind of arbitrary. Any idea what the rationale there is?

Apparently this UMass economist is the source of that 50% of median wage target figure; I'll keep digging.
Minimum Wage

Social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour; a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage makes rational sense for a rational choice, under Any form of Capitalism.

 

[hadit]

If we adjusted our pay/expense system such that ANYONE working 40 earns would earn at least enough to live on we could still recompense MOST people with much MORE than poverty level wages.

What about jobs that aren't worth a living wage? Should those jobs be banned?

automate them.

Many are already being automated and have been for a long time. Had a teenager pump your gas for you lately?

There is no reason to subsidize Capitalists with cheap labor in our first world economy.

There's also no reason to pay labor more than the actual worth of the work.

 

[rightwinger]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

 

[danielpalos]

If we adjusted our pay/expense system such that ANYONE working 40 earns would earn at least enough to live on we could still recompense MOST people with much MORE than poverty level wages.

What about jobs that aren't worth a living wage? Should those jobs be banned?

automate them.

Many are already being automated and have been for a long time. Had a teenager pump your gas for you lately?

There is no reason to subsidize Capitalists with cheap labor in our first world economy.

There's also no reason to pay labor more than the actual worth of the work.

Worth is determined by the State with fiat money, not markets.

 

[Thinker101]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

Hmm...if you've been working for ten years at a minimum wage job...you deserve every penny of that minimum wage.

 

[Lesh]

There's also no reason to pay labor more than the actual worth of the work.

As determined by....employers..who have a vested interest in paying labor as little as possible and have the means to influence public opinion and government policy

 

[danielpalos]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

Higher paid labor pay more in taxes and create more in demand. Simple capitalism. Only the right wing, never gets it.

 

[hadit]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

Who has remained the same low skilled worker for 10 years? Do you really think the people working for MW now are the same ones that were a decade ago? That's not realistic.

You're not expected to stay at MW. As you gain skill and experience, your value increases and so does your pay.

 

[georgephillip]

This thread is addressed to supporters of minimum wage laws. Detractors claim that minimum wage causes unemployment and/or inflation. But most supporters will vigorously deny this. Yet they seem to set their sights pretty low when it comes to setting the level of minimum wage. I assume this is because they believe there is some downside to minimum wage, some reason to not raise it to $200/hr, but it seems they never want to talk about what that reason might be. Hopefully, someone will step up here, and clear the air.

Here is one possible formula that might produce a viable minimum wage across a country where median wages and the cost of living varies widely from one region to another:

The Case for a Minimum Wage Formula

"The solution to this conundrum—needing regional wage-setting but not having a good enough regional governance to do it—is to set the minimum wage federally, but do it in such a way that it varies from place to place.

"That is, replace the federal minimum wage level with a federal minimum wage formula.

"This would involve cutting the country up into various minimum-wage zones (perhaps based on metropolitan areas) and then running each zone's relevant economic indicators (such as median wages and cost of living) through a formula to determine what the minimum wage in that zone will be.

"The administration of this process could be handled by a federal agency such as the Department of Labor.

"As to what the formula should be, Arin Dube tends to suggest setting it at 50% of the median wage of each minimum-wage zone.

"This is the average for OECD countries, though a number of counties set it higher, such as in France, where it is 61% of the median wage."

Thanks George. You didn't exactly answer my question, but it's in interesting proposal. It would at least resolve the problems with regionally different costs of living.

The 50% of median wage target seems kind of arbitrary. Any idea what the rationale there is?

Apparently this UMass economist is the source of that 50% of median wage target figure; I'll keep digging.
Minimum Wage

Social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour; a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage makes rational sense for a rational choice, under Any form of Capitalism.

I'm unsure if the word "rational" applies to capitalism, particularly its neoliberal rendition, but it seems likely to me $15/hour for full time employment would provide a livable wage for most individual workers; although there may be a trade-off between hourly wage and hours worked per week.

"What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out..."

Analysis | What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out.

"The preliminary findings of a number of new studies were shared this month at the American Economic Association's annual conference in Philadelphia. The presenters all stressed that the findings were early, incomplete and subject to considerable revision.

"Overall, the papers presented a mixed picture on the effects of the minimum wage. Here's what they found..."

 

[danielpalos]

This thread is addressed to supporters of minimum wage laws. Detractors claim that minimum wage causes unemployment and/or inflation. But most supporters will vigorously deny this. Yet they seem to set their sights pretty low when it comes to setting the level of minimum wage. I assume this is because they believe there is some downside to minimum wage, some reason to not raise it to $200/hr, but it seems they never want to talk about what that reason might be. Hopefully, someone will step up here, and clear the air.

Here is one possible formula that might produce a viable minimum wage across a country where median wages and the cost of living varies widely from one region to another:

The Case for a Minimum Wage Formula

"The solution to this conundrum—needing regional wage-setting but not having a good enough regional governance to do it—is to set the minimum wage federally, but do it in such a way that it varies from place to place.

"That is, replace the federal minimum wage level with a federal minimum wage formula.

"This would involve cutting the country up into various minimum-wage zones (perhaps based on metropolitan areas) and then running each zone's relevant economic indicators (such as median wages and cost of living) through a formula to determine what the minimum wage in that zone will be.

"The administration of this process could be handled by a federal agency such as the Department of Labor.

"As to what the formula should be, Arin Dube tends to suggest setting it at 50% of the median wage of each minimum-wage zone.

"This is the average for OECD countries, though a number of counties set it higher, such as in France, where it is 61% of the median wage."

Thanks George. You didn't exactly answer my question, but it's in interesting proposal. It would at least resolve the problems with regionally different costs of living.

The 50% of median wage target seems kind of arbitrary. Any idea what the rationale there is?

Apparently this UMass economist is the source of that 50% of median wage target figure; I'll keep digging.
Minimum Wage

Social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour; a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage makes rational sense for a rational choice, under Any form of Capitalism.

I'm unsure if the word "rational" applies to capitalism, particularly its neoliberal rendition, but it seems likely to me $15/hour for full time employment would provide a livable wage for most individual workers; although there may be a trade-off between hourly wage and hours worked per week.

"What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out..."

Analysis | What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out.

"The preliminary findings of a number of new studies were shared this month at the American Economic Association's annual conference in Philadelphia. The presenters all stressed that the findings were early, incomplete and subject to considerable revision.

"Overall, the papers presented a mixed picture on the effects of the minimum wage. Here's what they found..."

Our welfare clause is general not common. Labor should have recourse to unemployment compensation at the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour in our at-will employment States for merely being unemployed.

In any long run equilibrium, higher paid labor pay more in taxes and create more in demand.

 

[hadit]

There's also no reason to pay labor more than the actual worth of the work.

As determined by....employers..who have a vested interest in paying labor as little as possible and have the means to influence public opinion and government policy

It's actually determined by who is willing to work for what wage and how important the work is to the company. If one company doesn't think IT is very important, for example, it would be very difficult to further your IT career by working there. If they do value IT, they will pay more to get qualified, experienced workers. Even in IT we see the depressive effect of foreign workers willing to do the work for less.

 

[rightwinger]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

Hmm...if you've been working for ten years at a minimum wage job...you deserve every penny of that minimum wage.

Doesn't need to be the same workers who are being exploited

 

[rightwinger]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

Who has remained the same low skilled worker for 10 years? Do you really think the people working for MW now are the same ones that were a decade ago? That's not realistic.

You're not expected to stay at MW. As you gain skill and experience, your value increases and so does your pay.

Who ever said it has to be the same worker?
If a college aged worker spends four years getting a historically low wage, he is being exploited. Whoever takes his place then gets exploited

 

[hadit]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

Who has remained the same low skilled worker for 10 years? Do you really think the people working for MW now are the same ones that were a decade ago? That's not realistic.

You're not expected to stay at MW. As you gain skill and experience, your value increases and so does your pay.

Who ever said it has to be the same worker?
If a college aged worker spends four years getting a historically low wage, he is being exploited. Whoever takes his place then gets exploited

Exploited. Kind of how GM was exploited by the unions for decades?

The reality is, if you spend years working for MW, you (for your own reasons) are not trying to advance. Doctors get paid crap wages during their internships and don't really start earning much until they're about thirty. Sounds like they should unionize and drive up medical costs some more.

 

[rightwinger]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

Who has remained the same low skilled worker for 10 years? Do you really think the people working for MW now are the same ones that were a decade ago? That's not realistic.

You're not expected to stay at MW. As you gain skill and experience, your value increases and so does your pay.

Who ever said it has to be the same worker?
If a college aged worker spends four years getting a historically low wage, he is being exploited. Whoever takes his place then gets exploited

Exploited. Kind of how GM was exploited by the unions for decades?

The reality is, if you spend years working for MW, you (for your own reasons) are not trying to advance. Doctors get paid crap wages during their internships and don't really start earning much until they're about thirty. Sounds like they should unionize and drive up medical costs some more.

GM made a conscious decision to sign union contracts.
Under those contracts they became the largest automaker in the world

 

[danielpalos]

raise the minimum wage until we raise enough tax money to upgrade our infrastructure!

 

[hadit]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

Who has remained the same low skilled worker for 10 years? Do you really think the people working for MW now are the same ones that were a decade ago? That's not realistic.

You're not expected to stay at MW. As you gain skill and experience, your value increases and so does your pay.

Who ever said it has to be the same worker?
If a college aged worker spends four years getting a historically low wage, he is being exploited. Whoever takes his place then gets exploited

Exploited. Kind of how GM was exploited by the unions for decades?

The reality is, if you spend years working for MW, you (for your own reasons) are not trying to advance. Doctors get paid crap wages during their internships and don't really start earning much until they're about thirty. Sounds like they should unionize and drive up medical costs some more.

GM made a conscious decision to sign union contracts.
Under those contracts they became the largest automaker in the world

And workers make the conscious decision to work for their employer.