My thoughts on the Islamic world.

[Unkotare]

would be best advised to take a visit and see for themselves .

Like you, right?

 

[PaulS1950]

The area that the islamic republics inhabit (near east) have been at war continuously for the last 3000 years. What on earth makes you think that another 100 years will change anything?
The best we could hope for is to completely isolate them from the rest of the world and just let them fight it out. The first country that uses nukes gets turned to glass - just to keep the rest of the world safe.

 

[Saigon]

The area that the islamic republics inhabit (near east) have been at war continuously for the last 3000 years. What on earth makes you think that another 100 years will change anything?
The best we could hope for is to completely isolate them from the rest of the world and just let them fight it out. The first country that uses nukes gets turned to glass - just to keep the rest of the world safe.

If that were true, you might be right.

But aside from Palestine, there have been very few wars in the Middle East during the past 200-300 years.

 

[Unkotare]

But aside from Palestine, there have been very few wars in the Middle East during the past 200-300 years.

- Battle of Slankamen

- Russo-Turkish War

- First Turko-Egyptian War

- Russo-Turkish War (again)

- Young Turks revolt against sultan

- Italo-Turkish War

- Armenian massacres

- Unification of Saudi Arabia War

- Simko-Shikak Revolt

-Egyptian Revolution

- Turkish War of Independence

- Iraqi Revolt

- Franco-Syrian War

- Adwan Rebellion

- Great Syrian Revolt

- Saudi-Yemeni War

- Yazidi Revolt

- Dersim Rebellion

- Yahia Clan Coup

- Iraqi Revolution

- North Yemen Civil War

- Dhofar Rebellion

- Lebanese Civil War

- Islamic Uprising in Syria

- Iran-Iaq War

- Yemini Civil War (again)

- Sa' Dah Insurgency


By no means a comprehensive list.

 

[Saigon]

Interesting thoughts, Alpine.

It seems to be a feature of tyrants everywhere that they feel little need to cover up their crimes. Many of them are proud of their actions and feel everything they do is justified.

Charles Taylor of Liberia compared himself to Jesus, whilst incorporating and drugging children as young as nine years old in his army.

Saddam fits that trend, as do several other Middle Eastern leaders, and yet active wars between Islamic countries have been few. In my lifetime there has only been one that I can think of (Iran - Iraq).

 

[alpine]

Interesting thoughts, Alpine.

It seems to be a feature of tyrants everywhere that they feel little need to cover up their crimes. Many of them are proud of their actions and feel everything they do is justified.

Charles Taylor of Liberia compared himself to Jesus, whilst incorporating and drugging children as young as nine years old in his army.

Saddam fits that trend, as do several other Middle Eastern leaders, and yet active wars between Islamic countries have been few. In my lifetime there has only been one that I can think of (Iran - Iraq).

If we are going down to africa, than we have a long way, starting from darfur, and how african islamic psychopath tyrants are the sweethearts of the other islamic state leaders.

I don't disagree, tyrant is a tyrant, regardless of its religion. But you have to accept the fact that islam somehow creates more of them, at least statistically, and there should be a reason for that, not?

 

[Saigon]

Alpine -

Firstly, these days at AU is much more effective, and is getting better and better at calling out its own. Just this week we saw Mursi humiliate Syria's Assad, and that shows a real cultural maturity within those socities.

It is something that would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago.

Secondly, I don't see a particular link between tyranny and Islam. I see a much stronger link between less developed nations and tyranny, put it that way. There are Islamic tyrants (The Taliban, Saddam, Qaddaffi) but as many Islamic democracies (Turkey, Tunisia, Malaysia).

There have been many, many Christian tyrants - though mainly in poorer countries.

I think it is really about cultural and economic evolution - as people become better educated they read more, hear more, ask more questions, and are better able to find solutions at both a national and local level. We are seeing that now in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya, and it is long overdue.

 

[logical4u]

Alpine -

Firstly, these days at AU is much more effective, and is getting better and better at calling out its own. Just this week we saw Mursi humiliate Syria's Assad, and that shows a real cultural maturity within those socities.

It is something that would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago.

Secondly, I don't see a particular link between tyranny and Islam. I see a much stronger link between less developed nations and tyranny, put it that way. There are Islamic tyrants (The Taliban, Saddam, Qaddaffi) but as many Islamic democracies (Turkey, Tunisia, Malaysia).

There have been many, many Christian tyrants - though mainly in poorer countries.

I think it is really about cultural and economic evolution - as people become better educated they read more, hear more, ask more questions, and are better able to find solutions at both a national and local level. We are seeing that now in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya, and it is long overdue.

Why do you think "muslim" leaders' countries are LESS DEVELOPED, than other countries that have other religions represented in their leaders?

 

[Saigon]

Logical -

I have not seen any evidence of that myself, and would be surprised if you have.

I don't know about you, but if I think of the 10-12 poorest countries that I have been to, I'm not sure any of them would be Islamic.

 

[logical4u]

Logical -

I have not seen any evidence of that myself, and would be surprised if you have.

I don't know about you, but if I think of the 10-12 poorest countries that I have been to, I'm not sure any of them would be Islamic.

Good dodge!

 

[Saigon]

What dodge? What are you talking about?

You asked why Mulsim countries are poorer - my answer is that they are not.

If I think of the poorest countries that I have been to - probably Burundi, Liberia, Paraguay, Sierra Leone, DRC, Nicaragua and perhaps Cambodia - none are Muslim.

 

[Katzndogz]

Muslim countries are not poor. It doesn't fit in with the liberal myth that poverty and lack of education contributes to the rise of terrorism.

Abdel Morsi is wealthy and very well educated and he's a terrrorist himself. Yasser Arafat was obscenely wealthy with the money he stole from his people and he was a terrorist. He was also well educated. Before he claimed to be a palestinian, he was an electrician in Egypt.

 

[logical4u]

What dodge? What are you talking about?

You asked why Mulsim countries are poorer - my answer is that they are not.

If I think of the poorest countries that I have been to - probably Burundi, Liberia, Paraguay, Sierra Leone, DRC, Nicaragua and perhaps Cambodia - none are Muslim.

"Why do you think "muslim" leaders' countries are LESS DEVELOPED, than other countries that have other religions represented in their leaders? "

That is not "poorest". Look at countries with muslim leaders. You will find open protests, abuse of "non-believers", abuse of women, muslim men having sex with boys, destruction in many areas over "disgreements", and corruption. People that could otherwise be intelligent and enterprising will not invest in their future for fear that their brother, their neighbor, the next village, the next tribe, the gov't will come and take it from them or torture their family members to get what they have made.

Look at the "wealthy" areas of muslim countries. Who is doing "the work"? Why doesn't the "wealth" spill beyond a specific line in the sand? Yes, there are countries that do not have the "oil wealth" (the Scandinavian countries have spread the wealth to most of its citizens, unlike muslim countries that keep it in a few families), and it is reflected throughout society. That is different than muslim countries that have billions and billions in oil revenue that is kept in "royal" families, or to those in power, while the rest of the people live in misery.

 

[Saigon]

Muslim countries are not poor. .

Which ones have you been to?

Some are poor, obviously, others are not.

 

[Saigon]

Logical -

I'm finding it difficult to see a point in your writing. Certainly I don't see a point that applies to more than one or two Muslim countries.

Most Muslim countries do not have any oil, for one thing. Those that do do tend to share the wealth largely through patronage and family, I agree. So what?

 

[Katzndogz]

Muslim leaders know that if they distributed the wealth to the people, the people would buy weapons and war upon one another and those same leaders.

 

[alpine]

Alpine -

Firstly, these days at AU is much more effective, and is getting better and better at calling out its own. Just this week we saw Mursi humiliate Syria's Assad, and that shows a real cultural maturity within those socities.

It is something that would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago.

Secondly, I don't see a particular link between tyranny and Islam. I see a much stronger link between less developed nations and tyranny, put it that way. There are Islamic tyrants (The Taliban, Saddam, Qaddaffi) but as many Islamic democracies (Turkey, Tunisia, Malaysia).

There have been many, many Christian tyrants - though mainly in poorer countries.

I think it is really about cultural and economic evolution - as people become better educated they read more, hear more, ask more questions, and are better able to find solutions at both a national and local level. We are seeing that now in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya, and it is long overdue.

Saigon,

I think AU being against Essad is a so funny, but tragic at the same time. With Essad and his regime, the problem is not killing his own people or being a strict regime. There are plenty such states in the AU itself. Like qatar, killing its own people while protesting, like saudi arabia, being the most strict and freedom lacking state in the world. Syria doesn't have more journalists in jails than turkey does, and yet turkey is killing its own people with bombing jets in south east.

Depending on your perspective, where you are standing, I can show you worse than Essad regime, among all those countries standing against it, for "humanitarian" reasons. When you are aligned with west, Essad becomes evil, when you are aligned with russia or china, he suddenly becomes the victim.

You are also emphasizing the importance of cultural and economical evolution of the societies. But one has to remember, most strict, most cruel, most violent of the region are also the richest and had long history of cultural evolution. I argued you this point before, I see muslim societies going backwards, not forward. That is my whole concern. Otherwise I agree with you, this is a process for cultures, they grow and perish in time, their mindset aligns itself with its age at some point. But this is not the case for islamic states. They were ahead at some point, before the industrial revolution happened in the west, all those islamic states were under almost one rule(ottomans) and they were either ahead of its time or equal. And this is not so long ago. Some islamic states can not even reach to that understanding now, that was present in the region at that time. I see a total decline, all together.

Well, I should admit, turkey did try to make a kick start, with its modern republic idea about 100 years go, but it turned into ashes now. Secularism and all supporting ideas have been destroyed, ruined, systematically. The islamic leader of the country can openly voice his idea of creating a new islamist youth now. A youth with the sole purpose of living for their religion will join to their a likes in the region. And you know how he is planning to do it? By education. So education is not a one way street. You should see it can be used to put a whole society on a path that will apart it from its age. Revert all its progress in ages. To destroy any values they have created on their own to reach the understanding of the civilized world.

We have examples in front of us. Look at the iranian society, before the revolution. Highly dynamic and progressive society. Look at them now. So what happened to them? Let me tell you what happened, islam happened, and it will keep happening.

 

[logical4u]

Logical -

I'm finding it difficult to see a point in your writing. Certainly I don't see a point that applies to more than one or two Muslim countries.

Most Muslim countries do not have any oil, for one thing. Those that do do tend to share the wealth largely through patronage and family, I agree. So what?

It is clear that when the Lord gave you the ability to reason, you chose to hide it under a basket and not use it. Where islam goes, so goes misery (deceit, destruction, death, deacay, dust). Yet islam supporters tell us again and again how great it is. When we ask can you show us; we get: well if people would live according to so and so (blah, blah, blah). If we ask why such monstrous crimes against, men, women , children, and the Lord occur under islam, we are told, "that is not all of islam" (if it wasn't really, really noticeable, we wouldn't be asking), so IGNORE that evil.

When you talk to Buddahists or Hindus, they can give you specifics for why they think their faith is best. If you bring up problems (from another perspective), they can explain how there is punishment for wrong doing within the faith. Ask a muslim, and you get chants, obstinance, and arrogance (something no Hebrew prophet ever promoted).

 

[Saigon]

Logical -

Isn't it interesting that you have not been to these countries, but accuse people who have of not reasoning?

I'm not sure there are really any Muslim 'supporters' and certainly I am not one - I can only pass on my personal experience in a dozen Islamic countries and use that to balance the gossip and rumour that the forum is generally fueled by.


btw, I understand Alpine has been banned from the CDZ for reasons that I simply can not imagine. Baffling. Maybe there was a reason, but I certainly did see any post from Alpine that was a problem.

 

[High_Gravity]

What dodge? What are you talking about?

You asked why Mulsim countries are poorer - my answer is that they are not.

If I think of the poorest countries that I have been to - probably Burundi, Liberia, Paraguay, Sierra Leone, DRC, Nicaragua and perhaps Cambodia - none are Muslim.

Somalia is a Muslim country and its pretty poor.