Next time you hear someone criticizing socialism...

[the other mike]

see my sig line

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: Communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism-by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide." Ayn Rand

She also never imagined we would go bankrupt from wars.
Capitalism is fundamentally opposed to war
Laissez-faire capitalism is the only social system based on the recognition of individual rights and, therefore, the only system that bans force from social relationships. By the nature of its basic principles and interests, it is the only system fundamentally opposed to war. Men who are free to produce, have no incentive to loot; they have nothing to gain from war and a great deal to lose. Economically, wars cost money, in a free economy, where wealth is privately owned, the costs of war come out of the income of private citizens. A citizen cannot hope to recoup his own financial losses by winning the war.
Ayn Rand

 

[sakinago]

Ask them how well capitalism was doing in 1929.
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To the extent that capitalism’s problems – inequality, instability (cycles/crises), etc. – stem in part from its production relationships, reforms focused exclusively on regulating or supplanting markets will not succeed in solving them. For example, Keynesian monetary policies (focused on raising or lowering the quantity of money in circulation and, correspondingly, interest rates) do not touch the employer-employee relationship, however much their variations redistribute wealth, regulate markets, or displace markets in favor of state-administered investment decisions. Likewise, Keynesian fiscal policies (raising or lowering taxes and government spending) do not address the employer-employee relationship.

Keynesian policies also never ended the cyclical instability of capitalism. The New Deal and European social democracy left capitalism in place in both state and private units (enterprises) of production notwithstanding their massive reform agendas and programs. They thereby left capitalist employers facing the incentives and receiving the resources (profits) to evade, weaken and eventually dissolve most of those programs.

It is far better not to distribute wealth unequally in the first place than to re-distribute it after to undo the inequality. For example, FDR proposed in 1944 that the government establish a maximum income alongside a minimum wage; that is one among the various ways inequality could be limited and thereby redistribution avoided. Efforts to redistribute encounter evasions, oppositions, and failures that compound the effects of unequal distribution itself. Social peace and cohesion are the victims of redistribution sooner or later. Reforming markets while leaving the relations/organization of capitalist production unchanged is like redistribution. Just as redistribution schemes fail to solve the problems rooted in distribution, market-focused reforms fail to solve the problems rooted in production.

Since 2008, capitalism has showed us all yet again its deep and unsolved problems of cyclical instability, deepening inequality and the injustices they both entail. Their persistence mirrors that of the capitalist organization of production. To successfully confront and solve the problems of economic cycles, income and wealth inequality, and so on, we need to go beyond the capitalist employer-employee system of production. The democratization of enterprises – transitioning from employer-employee hierarchies to worker cooperatives – is a key way available here and now to realize the change we need.

Worker coops democratically decide the distribution of income (wages, bonuses, benefits, profit shares, etc.) among their members. No small group of owners and the boards of directors they choose would, as in capitalist corporations, make such decisions. Thus, for example, it would be far less likely that a few individuals in a worker coop would earn millions while most others could not afford to send children to college. A democratic worker coop decision on the distribution of enterprise income would be far less unequal than what typifies capitalist enterprises. A socialism for the 21st century could and should include the transition from a capitalist to a worker-coop-based economic system as central to its commitments to less inequality and less social conflict over redistribution.

Capitalism Is Not the “Market System”

There’s always natural ebbs and flows to markets. The first half of the 1920s we saw the Calvin Coolidge era. Started out in a recession that by every metric should’ve been worse than the Great Depression. Within a year and a half, government was cut in half (a feat that at the time said wasn’t possible), the market miraculously self corrected, and ushered in the roaring 20s. Calvin Coolidge gave up the power out of principle. Hoover was elected, and we get into the second half, and then a recession happened (like they do every 8 years or so), he added progressive policies that didn’t work. Then FDR took over, and turned the recession into the Great Depression.

Now no one cares about the recession that was metrically way worse than the depression, nor what brought us out of that recession. It’s all about what happened after, not the ineffective policies to fight the depression, nor the policies that directly caused it. No we need to ignore the minutia, and only concentrate on the convenient edited narrative.

 

[the other mike]

... Then FDR took over, and turned the recession into the Great Depression...

.

Dude, FDR was the governor of New York in 1929.
Wasn't president until 1932.

 

[Redfish]

see my sig line

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: Communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism-by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide." Ayn Rand

She also never imagined we would go bankrupt from wars.
Capitalism is fundamentally opposed to war
Laissez-faire capitalism is the only social system based on the recognition of individual rights and, therefore, the only system that bans force from social relationships. By the nature of its basic principles and interests, it is the only system fundamentally opposed to war. Men who are free to produce, have no incentive to loot; they have nothing to gain from war and a great deal to lose. Economically, wars cost money, in a free economy, where wealth is privately owned, the costs of war come out of the income of private citizens. A citizen cannot hope to recoup his own financial losses by winning the war.
Ayn Rand

I agree, we have wasted billions of dollars and thousands of lives on useless wars. 58,000 americans died in viet nam (Kennedy and Johnson's war) for absolutely nothing.

Rand was right about most of this, as was Orwell.

 

[Redfish]

... Then FDR took over, and turned the recession into the Great Depression...

.

Dude, FDR was the governor of New York in 1929.
Wasn't president until 1932.

FDR is responsible for our national slide from freedom into some form of "benevolent socialism" my term. But its failing, the country is 22 trillion in debt with no way of ever paying off that debt. At some point the country will declare bankruptcy and tell all the creditors to kiss ass.

 

[the other mike]

FDR is responsible for our national slide from freedom into some form of "benevolent socialism" my term. But its failing, the country is 22 trillion in debt with no way of ever paying off that debt. At some point the country will declare bankruptcy and tell all the creditors to kiss ass.

That is completely twisted history.
Our debt was only $900 billion until Reaganomics took over and Clinton and Bush put it on steroids.

 

[sakinago]

... Then FDR took over, and turned the recession into the Great Depression...

.

Dude, FDR was the governor of New York in 1929.
Wasn't president until 1932.

No shit, did I say anywhere that Hoover was great? No, I said he tried progressive policies. Policies that fucked shit it up. FDR came into power in 1932, when did America come out of the Great Depression? Hint: he was dead and the rest of the modern world was fucked sideways by total war while America was spared.

Bigger question, why did we come out of a much greater recession 9 years before hand and turn it into an economic boom within a year and a half vs the great depression lasting so long? Should we take a peak at the policies enacted during the time and compare and contrast? That sounds reasonable right? Seems like that’s the logical thing to do right?

 

[francoHFW]

Or the Socialists who get elected in modern countries that are all totally for democracy fair capitalism and a good safety net

So tell me Franco...why are you incapable of being your own good "safety net"? Why are you incapable of purchasing health insurance, home insurance, auto insurance, etc. as a "safety net"? And why are you incapable of saving money as a "safety net"?

It's a fair question. Don't be dick. Stop with the snark. Tell us what makes you so helpless that you need government to perform the basic functions for you that every other fuck'n adult in the world has no problem doing on their own.

Its real simple. He's a lazy butt that wants other people to pay for his stuff. All left-wing people are like that. They want everyone else to carry them on their backs.

I am happily retired, just not stupid or brainwashed.

 

[P@triot]

Ask them how well capitalism was doing in 1929.

Then have them talk to the victims of socialism in Venezuela.

You're no patriot.

Well, you’re no economist, so let’s call it even...

 

[francoHFW]

Lots of people didn't have Healthcare before Obamacare that do now

You didn’t answer the question (as always). What was wrong with those people that they were incapable of obtaining healthcare like an adult? Three-hundred million Americans had healthcare before Obamacare. If three-hundred million people can do something, and you can’t, you’re clearly an idiot.

Just not that many jobs with Healthcare duh.

 

[the other mike]

... Then FDR took over, and turned the recession into the Great Depression...

.

Dude, FDR was the governor of New York in 1929.
Wasn't president until 1932.

No shit, did I say anywhere that Hoover was great? No, I said he tried progressive policies. Policies that fucked shit it up. FDR came into power in 1932, when did America come out of the Great Depression? Hint: he was dead and the rest of the modern world was fucked sideways by total war while America was spared.

Bigger question, why did we come out of a much greater recession 9 years before hand and turn it into an economic boom within a year and a half vs the great depression lasting so long? Should we take a peak at the policies enacted during the time and compare and contrast? That sounds reasonable right? Seems like that’s the logical thing to do right?

You totally muffed your history lesson. D-

 

[Redfish]

FDR is responsible for our national slide from freedom into some form of "benevolent socialism" my term. But its failing, the country is 22 trillion in debt with no way of ever paying off that debt. At some point the country will declare bankruptcy and tell all the creditors to kiss ass.

That is completely twisted history.
Our debt was only $900 billion until Reaganomics took over.
Most of it left from the Vietnam War.

both parties are responsible, I never said otherwise. What is also true is that the debt was around 10 trillion when obozo took office and almost 20 trillion when he left. He added almost as much in 8 years as the previous presidents did combined in over 200 years.

and yes, the stupid viet nam war cost us a lot in both money and lives.

 

[P@triot]

Every other fuck'n adult doesn't reject being taken care of. I'm pretty much taken care of and I'm grateful for the help, and I know there are a number of us that fit that description.

Well that’s sad. Personally, I’m grateful for liberty. Fuck being “taken care of”.

 

[francoHFW]

Ask them how well capitalism was doing in 1929.

Then have them talk to the victims of socialism in Venezuela.

You're no patriot.

Well, you’re no economist, so let’s call it even...

A crappy country like Venezuela has no lessons for the greatest country in the world,a this is just another ridiculous GOP talking point that covers everything, if you are a brainwashed functional moron...compare us with France Australia Canada Scandinavia etc etc. We come out looking very bad, thanks to GOP give away to the rich tax rates for 30 years and the slow ruin of the middle class and our infrastructure. Thanks scumbag GOP and silly dupes like you....

 

[Redfish]

... Then FDR took over, and turned the recession into the Great Depression...

.

Dude, FDR was the governor of New York in 1929.
Wasn't president until 1932.

No shit, did I say anywhere that Hoover was great? No, I said he tried progressive policies. Policies that fucked shit it up. FDR came into power in 1932, when did America come out of the Great Depression? Hint: he was dead and the rest of the modern world was fucked sideways by total war while America was spared.

Bigger question, why did we come out of a much greater recession 9 years before hand and turn it into an economic boom within a year and a half vs the great depression lasting so long? Should we take a peak at the policies enacted during the time and compare and contrast? That sounds reasonable right? Seems like that’s the logical thing to do right?

You totally muffed your history lesson. D-

actually he aced it.

 

[P@triot]

Lots of people didn't have Healthcare before Obamacare that do now

You didn’t answer the question (as always). What was wrong with those people that they were incapable of obtaining healthcare like an adult? Three-hundred million Americans had healthcare before Obamacare. If three-hundred million people can do something, and you can’t, you’re clearly an idiot.

Just not that many jobs with Healthcare duh.

Then up your game to be in demand for one of those jobs with healthcare. One can also purchase their own damn insurance policy. Duh.

 

[the other mike]

... Then FDR took over, and turned the recession into the Great Depression...

.

Dude, FDR was the governor of New York in 1929.
Wasn't president until 1932.

No shit, did I say anywhere that Hoover was great? No, I said he tried progressive policies. Policies that fucked shit it up. FDR came into power in 1932, when did America come out of the Great Depression? Hint: he was dead and the rest of the modern world was fucked sideways by total war while America was spared.

Bigger question, why did we come out of a much greater recession 9 years before hand and turn it into an economic boom within a year and a half vs the great depression lasting so long? Should we take a peak at the policies enacted during the time and compare and contrast? That sounds reasonable right? Seems like that’s the logical thing to do right?

You totally muffed your history lesson. D-

actually he aced it.

He said FDR caused the Great Depression !!
Some people probably shouldn't do drugs - mom ever tell you ?

 

[sakinago]

... Then FDR took over, and turned the recession into the Great Depression...

.

Dude, FDR was the governor of New York in 1929.
Wasn't president until 1932.

No shit, did I say anywhere that Hoover was great? No, I said he tried progressive policies. Policies that fucked shit it up. FDR came into power in 1932, when did America come out of the Great Depression? Hint: he was dead and the rest of the modern world was fucked sideways by total war while America was spared.

Bigger question, why did we come out of a much greater recession 9 years before hand and turn it into an economic boom within a year and a half vs the great depression lasting so long? Should we take a peak at the policies enacted during the time and compare and contrast? That sounds reasonable right? Seems like that’s the logical thing to do right?

You totally muffed your history lesson. D-

Correct it then

 

[the other mike]

Redfish and Sakinago graduated from Honey Boo Boo neoliberal college of Internet trolls..

 

[the other mike]

Calvin Coolidge gave up the power out of principle. Hoover was elected, and we get into the second half, and then a recession happened (like they do every 8 years or so), he added progressive policies that didn’t work. Then FDR took over, and turned the recession into the Great Depression.
.

If the Great Depression began in 1929, how the fuck did FDR start it when he wasn't even president until 3 years later ?