No One Has a Right to Health Care

[regent]

Sounds like the American people are not entitled to much of anything. If the people want healthcare they can't have it. Americans did so much before, and now according to some, those options are not longer open. What has changed?

 

[Mac1958]

I tried to answer this "stealing" and "point of a gun" and "force" stuff in the first paragraph. Civilizations choose to pool money to pay for certain services. Those civilizations also choose which services will be pooled and how much to pay for them.

Civilizations choose? What about individuals? don't they have the right to choose what to do with the fruits of their own labor?

And those who feel like Medicare and Medicaid are unconstitutional are certainly welcome to promote candidates who would abolish them.

Where in the Constitution are Medicare and Medicaid authorized?

I'm not going to hold my breath on that. The thought of leaving millions of seniors - many of whom simply do not have the capacity to make complicated decisions any more - is quite immoral to me.

How is that immoral? there is no initiation of force against such people and anybody who chooses can voluntarily provide whatever aid they like to them.

Paying taxes to help those who were not seems perfectly moral to me, and I don't lose a moment of sleep over it.
,

Well then why would government have to use the threat of force against you (or anybody else) to do it? If it's a moral case shouldn't it be easy to persuade most people to do so voluntarily?

I don't know what to tell ya.

If you pay one penny in taxes, then you're being robbed and forced at the point of a gun. The question is who we vote in, and how low they can keep that oppression. I don't know how many people you can convince to vote out health care for the old, poor and needy.

The point of Constitutionally limited government is to protect our rights irrespective of the winds of democracy. Otherwise the minority is completely at the mercy of the majority.

As I said, a healthier populace is good economics. That's my focus, that's my interest. Since I've not yet had a gun held to my head to pay taxes, I can't speak to that.
.

It may be your focus and your interest, but it shouldn't be a goal of government. Citizens aren't the employees of government, and government is not our boss. How healthy and industrious we choose to be is none of the state's business.

The Constitution allows us to vote in representatives who may increase or decrease the role of government.

If those who want to decrease the role of government want, they can provide the electorate with a better alternative.

I'm open to hearing it.
.

 

[dblack]

The whole problem these days is government is no longer trusted, and that is why we see all the blow back on anything that it does or involves itself in.

Exactly. And that's directly related to government overstepping reasonable limitations on its power. That's what I think many liberals miss about democracy. If it doesn't have sane limits, every vote amounts to a life or death battle. That's why there is so little trust, and such a bitter partisan divide. When your opponents can force virtually anything on you via the power of the state, losing to them is unacceptable. When there are dependable limits on government power, it's not such a big deal. There's only so much they can do.

That's what we've lost - the sense that there are sound Constitutional limits protecting us from a majority vote that violates the rights of the minority.

 

[dblack]

The Constitution allows us to vote in representatives who may increase or decrease the role of government.

I couldn't disagree more. The entire point of the Constitution was to define the scope of government independent of its agents' decisions. Neither the legislature, nor the President, has the power to alter it. Only the states, via a deliberately onerous process, can do that.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I tried to answer this "stealing" and "point of a gun" and "force" stuff in the first paragraph. Civilizations choose to pool money to pay for certain services. Those civilizations also choose which services will be pooled and how much to pay for them.

Civilizations choose? What about individuals? don't they have the right to choose what to do with the fruits of their own labor?

And those who feel like Medicare and Medicaid are unconstitutional are certainly welcome to promote candidates who would abolish them.

Where in the Constitution are Medicare and Medicaid authorized?

I'm not going to hold my breath on that. The thought of leaving millions of seniors - many of whom simply do not have the capacity to make complicated decisions any more - is quite immoral to me.

How is that immoral? there is no initiation of force against such people and anybody who chooses can voluntarily provide whatever aid they like to them.

Paying taxes to help those who were not seems perfectly moral to me, and I don't lose a moment of sleep over it.
,

Well then why would government have to use the threat of force against you (or anybody else) to do it? If it's a moral case shouldn't it be easy to persuade most people to do so voluntarily?

I don't know what to tell ya.

If you pay one penny in taxes, then you're being robbed and forced at the point of a gun. The question is who we vote in, and how low they can keep that oppression. I don't know how many people you can convince to vote out health care for the old, poor and needy.

The point of Constitutionally limited government is to protect our rights irrespective of the winds of democracy. Otherwise the minority is completely at the mercy of the majority.

As I said, a healthier populace is good economics. That's my focus, that's my interest. Since I've not yet had a gun held to my head to pay taxes, I can't speak to that.
.

It may be your focus and your interest, but it shouldn't be a goal of government. Citizens aren't the employees of government, and government is not our boss. How healthy and industrious we choose to be is none of the state's business.

The Constitution allows us to vote in representatives who may increase or decrease the role of government.

If those who want to decrease the role of government want, they can provide the electorate with a better alternative.

I'm open to hearing it.
.

If the US Constitution gives us the right to increase the role of government, then what's the point of having a Constitution in the first place?

 

[Yousaidwhat]

I thought we were a Republic!

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Sounds like the American people are not entitled to much of anything. If the people want healthcare they can't have it. Americans did so much before, and now according to some, those options are not longer open. What has changed?

What has changed is the entitlement mentality.

So what is an entitlement? An entitlement is when government forcibly takes the money of others and gives it to you in some way or form.

 

[Yousaidwhat]

Samuel Adams: "Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes exhausts and murders itself!"

 

[rightwinger]

It sucks paying for something I will never need and use, obamacare is fraudulent at best...

. Happens everyday when you pay for private insurance you don't use, but you are paying into a pool to get cheaper rates did you know that ? Their are millions who have paid into private insurance carriers, and have nevered used their insurance to the capacity they could have, and when they leave they get nothing in return for it... Now that is robbery Imo.It's only when the government is involved that it becomes a hated thing right ? Ok, but why does the government get involved ? Isn't it because something isn't working, and the people start petitioning their government to check on why it is no longer working ? There was a huge problem developing with insurance rates, fraud in the industry, greed, shady dealings and downright corruption that caused the government to step in, but when it does it begins flushing out the players, and of course those players won't walk away from their candy without a fight.The problem however is that when the feds step in, they use a crisis to go to far instead of just fixing something and getting back out of the way.

Would you rather be the person who pays a lot into insurance and never gets to use it or the person who uses significantly more than they pay?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

It sucks paying for something I will never need and use, obamacare is fraudulent at best...

. Happens everyday when you pay for private insurance you don't use, but you are paying into a pool to get cheaper rates did you know that ? Their are millions who have paid into private insurance carriers, and have nevered used their insurance to the capacity they could have, and when they leave they get nothing in return for it... Now that is robbery Imo.It's only when the government is involved that it becomes a hated thing right ? Ok, but why does the government get involved ? Isn't it because something isn't working, and the people start petitioning their government to check on why it is no longer working ? There was a huge problem developing with insurance rates, fraud in the industry, greed, shady dealings and downright corruption that caused the government to step in, but when it does it begins flushing out the players, and of course those players won't walk away from their candy without a fight.The problem however is that when the feds step in, they use a crisis to go to far instead of just fixing something and getting back out of the way.

What has more corruption, fraud and shady dealings than federal government programs? Saying the government needs to check the insurance industry is like saying the wolf should check the hen house. Heck, even the VA scandal is only a few years old.

Insurance is an option--Commie Care is not. If you don't want house insurance, you can rent an apartment or buy your house outright with no loan and not insure it. If you don't want to pay auto insurance, then don't drive. My mother nor her parents ever paid a dime into auto insurance. None of them ever drove a car in their lives.

I was listening to the POTUS channel on Serius XM radio this morning. The host was interviewing a Congress critter from Maryland. They were talking about Commie Care when the host asked about all the people that still don't have insurance? The Congressman didn't know what to say but um, er, ah, and so on. In other words, it's a failure. It didn't work. It cost thousands of people their jobs, it caused insurance companies to get the hell out of health insurance business.

 

[rightwinger]

I tried to answer this "stealing" and "point of a gun" and "force" stuff in the first paragraph. Civilizations choose to pool money to pay for certain services. Those civilizations also choose which services will be pooled and how much to pay for them.

Civilizations choose? What about individuals? don't they have the right to choose what to do with the fruits of their own labor?

And those who feel like Medicare and Medicaid are unconstitutional are certainly welcome to promote candidates who would abolish them.

Where in the Constitution are Medicare and Medicaid authorized?

I'm not going to hold my breath on that. The thought of leaving millions of seniors - many of whom simply do not have the capacity to make complicated decisions any more - is quite immoral to me.

How is that immoral? there is no initiation of force against such people and anybody who chooses can voluntarily provide whatever aid they like to them.

Paying taxes to help those who were not seems perfectly moral to me, and I don't lose a moment of sleep over it.
,

Well then why would government have to use the threat of force against you (or anybody else) to do it? If it's a moral case shouldn't it be easy to persuade most people to do so voluntarily?

I don't know what to tell ya.

If you pay one penny in taxes, then you're being robbed and forced at the point of a gun. The question is who we vote in, and how low they can keep that oppression. I don't know how many people you can convince to vote out health care for the old, poor and needy.

The point of Constitutionally limited government is to protect our rights irrespective of the winds of democracy. Otherwise the minority is completely at the mercy of the majority.

As I said, a healthier populace is good economics. That's my focus, that's my interest. Since I've not yet had a gun held to my head to pay taxes, I can't speak to that.
.

It may be your focus and your interest, but it shouldn't be a goal of government. Citizens aren't the employees of government, and government is not our boss. How healthy and industrious we choose to be is none of the state's business.

The Constitution allows us to vote in representatives who may increase or decrease the role of government.

If those who want to decrease the role of government want, they can provide the electorate with a better alternative.

I'm open to hearing it.
.

If the US Constitution gives us the right to increase the role of government, then what's the point of having a Constitution in the first place?

It gives We the People the right to select the size of government we need

 

[rightwinger]

It sucks paying for something I will never need and use, obamacare is fraudulent at best...

. Happens everyday when you pay for private insurance you don't use, but you are paying into a pool to get cheaper rates did you know that ? Their are millions who have paid into private insurance carriers, and have nevered used their insurance to the capacity they could have, and when they leave they get nothing in return for it... Now that is robbery Imo.It's only when the government is involved that it becomes a hated thing right ? Ok, but why does the government get involved ? Isn't it because something isn't working, and the people start petitioning their government to check on why it is no longer working ? There was a huge problem developing with insurance rates, fraud in the industry, greed, shady dealings and downright corruption that caused the government to step in, but when it does it begins flushing out the players, and of course those players won't walk away from their candy without a fight.The problem however is that when the feds step in, they use a crisis to go to far instead of just fixing something and getting back out of the way.

What has more corruption, fraud and shady dealings than federal government programs? Saying the government needs to check the insurance industry is like saying the wolf should check the hen house. Heck, even the VA scandal is only a few years old.

Insurance is an option--Commie Care is not. If you don't want house insurance, you can rent an apartment or buy your house outright with no loan and not insure it. If you don't want to pay auto insurance, then don't drive. My mother nor her parents ever paid a dime into auto insurance. None of them ever drove a car in their lives.

I was listening to the POTUS channel on Serius XM radio this morning. The host was interviewing a Congress critter from Maryland. They were talking about Commie Care when the host asked about all the people that still don't have insurance? The Congressman didn't know what to say but um, er, ah, and so on. In other words, it's a failure. It didn't work. It cost thousands of people their jobs, it caused insurance companies to get the hell out of health insurance business.

We have one of the least corrupt governments on earth

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Callous? Hardly.. what's callous is demanding that your neighbor pay your bills. No, that's just plain fucked up.

Yes, the word is callous

As in not being willing to contribute to save another Americans life

Willing to contribute <> forced to contribute under penalty of law. Who says we don't help in other ways? You know nothing of me.... I just tire of lefties screeching about helping people when it always involves taking things from everybody else.

Anyway, the ACA is a fucking scam, even the IRS can't get the reporting right... it's a typical government monstrosity aimed at fixing a non-existent problem. What the next? The AFA (Affordable Food Act) mandating we all maintain a government mandated supply of health foods? Hell, it's in all our best interests that we eat healthy, right? The the Affordable Clothing Act? The Affordable Water Act?

It never ends...

Sorry ...our society does not function on "willing to contribute"

Our schools are not funded by those willing to contribute
Our police and fire departments are not paid by those willing to contribute
Our wars are not paid by those willing to contribute

Schools, military and fire departments aren't transfer payments. The assumption is the government isn't entitled to shit.. however, we acknowledge that we need to fight fires, educate children and protect ourselves.

Far cry from forcing me to buy you insurance.

Schools that educate children whose parents don't pay for it, or pay less than others,

are a redistribution of wealth. As are fire departments that serve all in a community equally regardless of how much each household paid towards that department.

Nope, not in all places.

Some villages and towns have a volunteer fire department. You have to pay for fire insurance or otherwise the volunteer fire department will not help you put out your fire. They will only come out to protect your neighbors property or perhaps town property like a woods or public building. It's an option.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Civilizations choose? What about individuals? don't they have the right to choose what to do with the fruits of their own labor?

Where in the Constitution are Medicare and Medicaid authorized?

How is that immoral? there is no initiation of force against such people and anybody who chooses can voluntarily provide whatever aid they like to them.

Well then why would government have to use the threat of force against you (or anybody else) to do it? If it's a moral case shouldn't it be easy to persuade most people to do so voluntarily?

I don't know what to tell ya.

If you pay one penny in taxes, then you're being robbed and forced at the point of a gun. The question is who we vote in, and how low they can keep that oppression. I don't know how many people you can convince to vote out health care for the old, poor and needy.

The point of Constitutionally limited government is to protect our rights irrespective of the winds of democracy. Otherwise the minority is completely at the mercy of the majority.

As I said, a healthier populace is good economics. That's my focus, that's my interest. Since I've not yet had a gun held to my head to pay taxes, I can't speak to that.
.

It may be your focus and your interest, but it shouldn't be a goal of government. Citizens aren't the employees of government, and government is not our boss. How healthy and industrious we choose to be is none of the state's business.

The Constitution allows us to vote in representatives who may increase or decrease the role of government.

If those who want to decrease the role of government want, they can provide the electorate with a better alternative.

I'm open to hearing it.
.

If the US Constitution gives us the right to increase the role of government, then what's the point of having a Constitution in the first place?

It gives We the People the right to select the size of government we need

No it doesn't. What the federal government is supposed to provide the nation is listed in the Powers of Congress. The US Constitution was designed to limit the power of government--not give the people the power to enlarge it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

 

[rightwinger]

I don't know what to tell ya.

If you pay one penny in taxes, then you're being robbed and forced at the point of a gun. The question is who we vote in, and how low they can keep that oppression. I don't know how many people you can convince to vote out health care for the old, poor and needy.

The point of Constitutionally limited government is to protect our rights irrespective of the winds of democracy. Otherwise the minority is completely at the mercy of the majority.

As I said, a healthier populace is good economics. That's my focus, that's my interest. Since I've not yet had a gun held to my head to pay taxes, I can't speak to that.
.

It may be your focus and your interest, but it shouldn't be a goal of government. Citizens aren't the employees of government, and government is not our boss. How healthy and industrious we choose to be is none of the state's business.

The Constitution allows us to vote in representatives who may increase or decrease the role of government.

If those who want to decrease the role of government want, they can provide the electorate with a better alternative.

I'm open to hearing it.
.

If the US Constitution gives us the right to increase the role of government, then what's the point of having a Constitution in the first place?

It gives We the People the right to select the size of government we need

No it doesn't. What the federal government is supposed to provide the nation is listed in the Powers of Congress. The US Constitution was designed to limit the power of government--not give the people the power to enlarge it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

The Bill of Rights limits the powers of Government. The Constititution is an instrument where We the People established a government to represent us
The Government has broad powers

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Not to mention the next step in this process is to tax you on your insurance you receive..think about that, forced to carry something so you can pay a tax on it... and a tax on a non cash income item at that.

Fucking lovely.

It's happening now. Many employers are dropping coverage for their employees. The employer may give you some money towards your insurance, but that money can only be paid via a wage or salary increase which of course is taxed.

So now that you lost your insurance, you have to buy it with after-tax money whereas before, your benefits were never taxed. To add insult to injury, I found out through my tax preparer that don't even bother trying to deduct anything medical on your federal taxes unless you have paid over $10,000 in medical bills, and even then you might not get a deduction depending on how much you make. That $10,000 minimum was part of Commie Care.

 

[dblack]

The point of Constitutionally limited government is to protect our rights irrespective of the winds of democracy. Otherwise the minority is completely at the mercy of the majority.

It may be your focus and your interest, but it shouldn't be a goal of government. Citizens aren't the employees of government, and government is not our boss. How healthy and industrious we choose to be is none of the state's business.

The Constitution allows us to vote in representatives who may increase or decrease the role of government.

If those who want to decrease the role of government want, they can provide the electorate with a better alternative.

I'm open to hearing it.
.

If the US Constitution gives us the right to increase the role of government, then what's the point of having a Constitution in the first place?

It gives We the People the right to select the size of government we need

No it doesn't. What the federal government is supposed to provide the nation is listed in the Powers of Congress. The US Constitution was designed to limit the power of government--not give the people the power to enlarge it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

The Bill of Rights limits the powers of Government. The Constititution is an instrument where We the People established a government to represent us
The Government has broad powers

That's the current consensus. Which is why I see us sliding into full blown fascism with the next big crisis.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The point of Constitutionally limited government is to protect our rights irrespective of the winds of democracy. Otherwise the minority is completely at the mercy of the majority.

It may be your focus and your interest, but it shouldn't be a goal of government. Citizens aren't the employees of government, and government is not our boss. How healthy and industrious we choose to be is none of the state's business.

The Constitution allows us to vote in representatives who may increase or decrease the role of government.

If those who want to decrease the role of government want, they can provide the electorate with a better alternative.

I'm open to hearing it.
.

If the US Constitution gives us the right to increase the role of government, then what's the point of having a Constitution in the first place?

It gives We the People the right to select the size of government we need

No it doesn't. What the federal government is supposed to provide the nation is listed in the Powers of Congress. The US Constitution was designed to limit the power of government--not give the people the power to enlarge it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

The Bill of Rights limits the powers of Government. The Constititution is an instrument where We the People established a government to represent us
The Government has broad powers

It does now thanks to liberal judges who bastardized the US Constitution. But the founders wrote the document to limit the size of government and their involvement in the private lives of people. Do you really believe that if the founders were alive today to witness gay marriage forced upon the states against their will, they would agree with that?

 

[Rustic]

It sucks paying for something I will never need and use, obamacare is fraudulent at best...

. Happens everyday when you pay for private insurance you don't use, but you are paying into a pool to get cheaper rates did you know that ? Their are millions who have paid into private insurance carriers, and have nevered used their insurance to the capacity they could have, and when they leave they get nothing in return for it... Now that is robbery Imo.It's only when the government is involved that it becomes a hated thing right ? Ok, but why does the government get involved ? Isn't it because something isn't working, and the people start petitioning their government to check on why it is no longer working ? There was a huge problem developing with insurance rates, fraud in the industry, greed, shady dealings and downright corruption that caused the government to step in, but when it does it begins flushing out the players, and of course those players won't walk away from their candy without a fight.The problem however is that when the feds step in, they use a crisis to go to far instead of just fixing something and getting back out of the way.

What has more corruption, fraud and shady dealings than federal government programs? Saying the government needs to check the insurance industry is like saying the wolf should check the hen house. Heck, even the VA scandal is only a few years old.

Insurance is an option--Commie Care is not. If you don't want house insurance, you can rent an apartment or buy your house outright with no loan and not insure it. If you don't want to pay auto insurance, then don't drive. My mother nor her parents ever paid a dime into auto insurance. None of them ever drove a car in their lives.

I was listening to the POTUS channel on Serius XM radio this morning. The host was interviewing a Congress critter from Maryland. They were talking about Commie Care when the host asked about all the people that still don't have insurance? The Congressman didn't know what to say but um, er, ah, and so on. In other words, it's a failure. It didn't work. It cost thousands of people their jobs, it caused insurance companies to get the hell out of health insurance business.

We have one of the least corrupt governments on earth

Ha,ha,haha!!!!!!

 

[Rustic]

It sucks paying for something I will never need and use, obamacare is fraudulent at best...

. Happens everyday when you pay for private insurance you don't use, but you are paying into a pool to get cheaper rates did you know that ? Their are millions who have paid into private insurance carriers, and have nevered used their insurance to the capacity they could have, and when they leave they get nothing in return for it... Now that is robbery Imo.It's only when the government is involved that it becomes a hated thing right ? Ok, but why does the government get involved ? Isn't it because something isn't working, and the people start petitioning their government to check on why it is no longer working ? There was a huge problem developing with insurance rates, fraud in the industry, greed, shady dealings and downright corruption that caused the government to step in, but when it does it begins flushing out the players, and of course those players won't walk away from their candy without a fight.The problem however is that when the feds step in, they use a crisis to go to far instead of just fixing something and getting back out of the way.

What has more corruption, fraud and shady dealings than federal government programs? Saying the government needs to check the insurance industry is like saying the wolf should check the hen house. Heck, even the VA scandal is only a few years old.

Insurance is an option--Commie Care is not. If you don't want house insurance, you can rent an apartment or buy your house outright with no loan and not insure it. If you don't want to pay auto insurance, then don't drive. My mother nor her parents ever paid a dime into auto insurance. None of them ever drove a car in their lives.

I was listening to the POTUS channel on Serius XM radio this morning. The host was interviewing a Congress critter from Maryland. They were talking about Commie Care when the host asked about all the people that still don't have insurance? The Congressman didn't know what to say but um, er, ah, and so on. In other words, it's a failure. It didn't work. It cost thousands of people their jobs, it caused insurance companies to get the hell out of health insurance business.

We have one of the least corrupt governments on earth

Ha,ha,haha!!!!!!

Prove it?