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No One Has a Right to Health Care

No One Has a Right to Health Care


What Are Our "Rights"?

You hear an awful lot about our "rights" these days. And justly so-- our rights, in this country, are our most valuable possession, outside of life itself. And some people say that our basic rights, are even more important than life. When Patrick Henry defiantly told the British government during colonial times, "Give me liberty or give me death!", he was stating that he considered a life without liberty, to be worse than no life at all (death).

So, what are our rights?

The Declaration of Independence mentions a few, and implies that there are others. So does the Constitution-- in fact, it names many, and categorically states that those aren't the only rights people have.

The Declaration says that among our rights, are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". It also says that these were given to us "by [our] Creator". Take that as you will, depending on whatever religious outlook you hold. But one of the implications is that, wherever our rights came from, they were NOT granted us by government, or by our fellow men at all. We had them long before government existed. And these various government documents simply say that government cannot take them away or interfere with them.

Here we refer, of course, only to normal law-abiding citizens. The Constitution contains the phrase "except by due course of law" in many places. If you rob someone, assault him, destroy his property, murder him etc., then you can legitimately be deprived of liberty (you go to jail), property (you get fined), or even life in some extreme cases (Death Penalty). Outside of such lawbreaking, your rights are held inviolate.

But today, our "rights" seem to be multiplying without end. This is not necessarily bad-- as we said, rights are extremely valuable. But, are we getting ahead of ourselves, granting to ourselves so many things under the name of "rights"?

"Old Rights"

Some are pretty indisputable, such as the ones mentioned in the Declaration. The ones mentioned in the Constitution, especially in the first ten Amendments (which was even called the "Bill of Rights" by its authors), are similarly vital... though they seem to be undergoing a methodical erosion. Freedom of religion, right to peaceably assemble, freedom of speech and of the press, the right to keep and bear arms, etc. all are very basic, and it is scary to think of trying to exist in a country in which any of these do not exist.

New "rights"

But lately we have heard about other "rights", such as the right to work, the right to decent medical treatment, the right to a decent standard of living. These all sound salutary-- what kind of society would we have, if working for a living were forbidden, decent health care were forbidden, etc.?

But there is a big gap between "forbidden" and "compulsory". The rights found in the country's founding documents, are compulsory, to the extent that we all have them whether we want them or not (who wouldn't want them?), and no one can take them away.

What about, say, the right to decent medical treatment? Those who favor this "right", point out that they don't necessarily mean the rare, exotic, super-expensive treatments; nor "elective" procedures such as cosmetic liposuction or a luxury suite in the hospital. They usually mean that, if you get sick or injured, you have the "right" to have a doctor look at you, make sure the problem isn't unusually dangerous, and administer the routine treatments needed to help you on the way back to good health. An absence of such routine treatment, could occasionally put your life in peril, obviously-- a simple broken bone could lead to infection if untreated, and possibly far more. But there are differences between the "Old Rights", as we've called the ones in the founding documents, and these "New 'Rights'".

Your "right to life" protects something that no man gave you-- you simply had it, from the day you were born. Nobody had to go to extraordinary effort to create it for you, outside of natural processes that move forward on their own without deliberate effort or guidance by humans, government, etc.

Same with the "right to liberty". You were your own man, as it were, the day you were born. Nobody had to go to special effort to create that status for you. In fact, they would have had to go to considerable effort to take those things away, by deliberately coming to you and killing you; or by building a jail and imprisoning you etc. If they leave you alone, you have life and liberty, and can pursue happiness. They have to work at it to deprive you of those things.

The Difference in the "New 'Rights'"

But this isn't the case with what we've called "New 'Rights'". In order for you to get the kind of routine medical treatment its advocates describe, somebody has to stop what he is doing and perform work for you-- the doctor who examines you, the clerk who sets up your appointment, the people who built the office or hospital where you get treatment.

If this routine medical treatment is to be called a "right" on par with our "Old Rights", doesn't that mean that you must be given it when needed? And doesn't it follow, then, that others must be compelled to do the normal things needed to treat you?

Uh-oh.

How does this compulsion upon those others (doctors, clerks etc.) fit in with THEIR rights? They "have" to treat you? What if their schedules are full-- do they have to bump another patient to make room for you? What if they were spending precious quality time with their families-- do they have to abandon their own kids, to fulfill your "right" to treatment that only they can give? Doesn't this fit the description of "involuntary servitude"?

This is an important difference between the rights envisioned by the country's founders, and the new "rights" advocated by more modern pundits. In order to secure your "old rights", people merely had to leave you alone... do nothing to bother you. in fact, they were required to. But these new so-called "rights", required that people go out of their way to actively contribute to you.

And that "requirement", in fact violates THEIR rights-- specifically, their right to liberty. They must be left free to live their lives as THEY chose-- free from compulsion to come and help you out. If they want to help you, that's fine-- often it's the decent and moral thing to do. But they cannot be forced to help you, no matter how much you need the help.

These new "rights", are in fact not rights at all. They are obligations upon others, imposed on them without their agreement or consent.

Beware of announcements that you have the "right" to this or that. Ask yourself if this "right", forces someone else to do something for you, that he didn't previously agree to. If it does, it's not a "right" possessed by you. It's an attempt by the announcer, to force others into servitude... an attempt, in fact, to violate the others' rights.
 
I doubt that because in their time everyone took care of themselves and if you had a problem family helped.

Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!
 
No One Has a Right to Health Care


What Are Our "Rights"?

You hear an awful lot about our "rights" these days. And justly so-- our rights, in this country, are our most valuable possession, outside of life itself. And some people say that our basic rights, are even more important than life. When Patrick Henry defiantly told the British government during colonial times, "Give me liberty or give me death!", he was stating that he considered a life without liberty, to be worse than no life at all (death).

So, what are our rights?

The Declaration of Independence mentions a few, and implies that there are others. So does the Constitution-- in fact, it names many, and categorically states that those aren't the only rights people have.

The Declaration says that among our rights, are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". It also says that these were given to us "by [our] Creator". Take that as you will, depending on whatever religious outlook you hold. But one of the implications is that, wherever our rights came from, they were NOT granted us by government, or by our fellow men at all. We had them long before government existed. And these various government documents simply say that government cannot take them away or interfere with them.

Here we refer, of course, only to normal law-abiding citizens. The Constitution contains the phrase "except by due course of law" in many places. If you rob someone, assault him, destroy his property, murder him etc., then you can legitimately be deprived of liberty (you go to jail), property (you get fined), or even life in some extreme cases (Death Penalty). Outside of such lawbreaking, your rights are held inviolate.

But today, our "rights" seem to be multiplying without end. This is not necessarily bad-- as we said, rights are extremely valuable. But, are we getting ahead of ourselves, granting to ourselves so many things under the name of "rights"?

"Old Rights"

Some are pretty indisputable, such as the ones mentioned in the Declaration. The ones mentioned in the Constitution, especially in the first ten Amendments (which was even called the "Bill of Rights" by its authors), are similarly vital... though they seem to be undergoing a methodical erosion. Freedom of religion, right to peaceably assemble, freedom of speech and of the press, the right to keep and bear arms, etc. all are very basic, and it is scary to think of trying to exist in a country in which any of these do not exist.

New "rights"

But lately we have heard about other "rights", such as the right to work, the right to decent medical treatment, the right to a decent standard of living. These all sound salutary-- what kind of society would we have, if working for a living were forbidden, decent health care were forbidden, etc.?

But there is a big gap between "forbidden" and "compulsory". The rights found in the country's founding documents, are compulsory, to the extent that we all have them whether we want them or not (who wouldn't want them?), and no one can take them away.

What about, say, the right to decent medical treatment? Those who favor this "right", point out that they don't necessarily mean the rare, exotic, super-expensive treatments; nor "elective" procedures such as cosmetic liposuction or a luxury suite in the hospital. They usually mean that, if you get sick or injured, you have the "right" to have a doctor look at you, make sure the problem isn't unusually dangerous, and administer the routine treatments needed to help you on the way back to good health. An absence of such routine treatment, could occasionally put your life in peril, obviously-- a simple broken bone could lead to infection if untreated, and possibly far more. But there are differences between the "Old Rights", as we've called the ones in the founding documents, and these "New 'Rights'".

Your "right to life" protects something that no man gave you-- you simply had it, from the day you were born. Nobody had to go to extraordinary effort to create it for you, outside of natural processes that move forward on their own without deliberate effort or guidance by humans, government, etc.

Same with the "right to liberty". You were your own man, as it were, the day you were born. Nobody had to go to special effort to create that status for you. In fact, they would have had to go to considerable effort to take those things away, by deliberately coming to you and killing you; or by building a jail and imprisoning you etc. If they leave you alone, you have life and liberty, and can pursue happiness. They have to work at it to deprive you of those things.

The Difference in the "New 'Rights'"

But this isn't the case with what we've called "New 'Rights'". In order for you to get the kind of routine medical treatment its advocates describe, somebody has to stop what he is doing and perform work for you-- the doctor who examines you, the clerk who sets up your appointment, the people who built the office or hospital where you get treatment.

If this routine medical treatment is to be called a "right" on par with our "Old Rights", doesn't that mean that you must be given it when needed? And doesn't it follow, then, that others must be compelled to do the normal things needed to treat you?

Uh-oh.

How does this compulsion upon those others (doctors, clerks etc.) fit in with THEIR rights? They "have" to treat you? What if their schedules are full-- do they have to bump another patient to make room for you? What if they were spending precious quality time with their families-- do they have to abandon their own kids, to fulfill your "right" to treatment that only they can give? Doesn't this fit the description of "involuntary servitude"?

This is an important difference between the rights envisioned by the country's founders, and the new "rights" advocated by more modern pundits. In order to secure your "old rights", people merely had to leave you alone... do nothing to bother you. in fact, they were required to. But these new so-called "rights", required that people go out of their way to actively contribute to you.

And that "requirement", in fact violates THEIR rights-- specifically, their right to liberty. They must be left free to live their lives as THEY chose-- free from compulsion to come and help you out. If they want to help you, that's fine-- often it's the decent and moral thing to do. But they cannot be forced to help you, no matter how much you need the help.

These new "rights", are in fact not rights at all. They are obligations upon others, imposed on them without their agreement or consent.

Beware of announcements that you have the "right" to this or that. Ask yourself if this "right", forces someone else to do something for you, that he didn't previously agree to. If it does, it's not a "right" possessed by you. It's an attempt by the announcer, to force others into servitude... an attempt, in fact, to violate the others' rights.
. NO ONE WANTS NOTHING FOR FREE.... No one is expected to treat anyone for free.... Everyone just demands a system that works, is affordable, and offers the same basic care that any other human beings want and deserve in life. There is a way to accomplish this, but the ones who have made fortunes off of the system as it stands, well they don't want anything to change at all just because of. You sure wrote alot of words just to accuse people of just wanting something for free. Wow. In fact when anyone wants to correct the things that have been wrong with the system, then here comes all the accusers who try every trick in the book inorder to try and label people as free loaders, trash unworthy of a sane structural and decent American run healthcare system for all.
 
NO ONE WANTS NOTHING FOR FREE.... No one is expected to treat anyone for free.... Everyone just demands a system that works, is affordable, and offers the same basic care that any other human beings want and deserve in life. There is a way to accomplish this, but the ones who have made fortunes off of the system as it stands, well they don't want anything to change at all just because of. You sure wrote alot of words just to accuse people of just wanting something for free. Wow. In fact when anyone wants to correct the things that have been wrong with the system, then here comes all the accusers who try every trick in the book inorder to try and label people as free loaders, trash unworthy of a sane structural and decent American run healthcare system for all.

How should we decide how much health care you deserve?
 
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I doubt that because in their time everyone took care of themselves and if you had a problem family helped.

Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.
 
I doubt that because in their time everyone took care of themselves and if you had a problem family helped.

Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.

As I understand it, the greatest killer during the Civil War was disease, most notably diarrhea.

The point is, medicine has vastly improved within even the past decade. Those improvements have been the result of research (much of it on :eek: government grants) and application of amazing techniques that can save lives.

The thing is, those treatments cost money.

Now, I've seen countless posters lamenting the long lost era of the 1950s, but I've never seen anyone want to go back to the medical techniques of 1776...until today.
 
How should we decide how much health care you deserve?

How much healthcare does an infant born with a heart defect "deserve"?

Fuck off, troll. I'm talking to beagle9.
I doubt that because in their time everyone took care of themselves and if you had a problem family helped.

Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.
. How much tax payer government research has gone into figuring out how to deal with the infectious diseases that have threatened this nation over the years, and even helped the world's populations over the years ? Government has been a key player in the eradication of infectious diseases that have threatened this nation and it's citizenry for centuries now. To hear some in here talk, you would think that government has never played a vital role in the protection of this nation, and had not done it through very important taxpayer funded research. Wow after reading I see that I am on the same page with others here...
 
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I doubt that because in their time everyone took care of themselves and if you had a problem family helped.

Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.

As I understand it, the greatest killer during the Civil War was disease, most notably diarrhea.

The point is, medicine has vastly improved within even the past decade. Those improvements have been the result of research (much of it on :eek: government grants) and application of amazing techniques that can save lives.

The thing is, those treatments cost money.

Now, I've seen countless posters lamenting the long lost era of the 1950s, but I've never seen anyone want to go back to the medical techniques of 1776...until today.

Well what happened when people got sick in 1776? They died, that's it.

By nature, we don't live very long lives. Medical care allows us to cheat God out of days, months and years we weren't supposed to have. If you can afford such treatment, then great. You bought yourself more time than you are naturally allowed. But what if you don't have that kind of money? Should somebody else pay for it or do you just accept your fate?

Years ago there was no such thing as medical costs. Medical care was pretty cheap as was insurance. So what happened between then and now?

Even on Obama Care, the price of a half-way decent plan is about the cost of an apartment, a mortgage payment, a car payment on the most expensive SUV you can buy for a single person. How are we able to afford it for ourselves yet alone for others?
 
I doubt that because in their time everyone took care of themselves and if you had a problem family helped.

Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.

As I understand it, the greatest killer during the Civil War was disease, most notably diarrhea.

The point is, medicine has vastly improved within even the past decade. Those improvements have been the result of research (much of it on :eek: government grants) and application of amazing techniques that can save lives.

The thing is, those treatments cost money.

Now, I've seen countless posters lamenting the long lost era of the 1950s, but I've never seen anyone want to go back to the medical techniques of 1776...until today.

Well what happened when people got sick in 1776? They died, that's it.

By nature, we don't live very long lives. Medical care allows us to cheat God out of days, months and years we weren't supposed to have. If you can afford such treatment, then great. You bought yourself more time than you are naturally allowed. But what if you don't have that kind of money? Should somebody else pay for it or do you just accept your fate?

Years ago there was no such thing as medical costs. Medical care was pretty cheap as was insurance. So what happened between then and now?

Even on Obama Care, the price of a half-way decent plan is about the cost of an apartment, a mortgage payment, a car payment on the most expensive SUV you can buy for a single person. How are we able to afford it for ourselves yet alone for others?
. Wow Ray, so you are in favor of death panels ? Very revealing here.... Wow... Am I actually hearing right in here ?
 
I doubt that because in their time everyone took care of themselves and if you had a problem family helped.

Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.

As I understand it, the greatest killer during the Civil War was disease, most notably diarrhea.

The point is, medicine has vastly improved within even the past decade. Those improvements have been the result of research (much of it on :eek: government grants) and application of amazing techniques that can save lives.

The thing is, those treatments cost money.

Now, I've seen countless posters lamenting the long lost era of the 1950s, but I've never seen anyone want to go back to the medical techniques of 1776...until today.

Well what happened when people got sick in 1776? They died, that's it.

By nature, we don't live very long lives. Medical care allows us to cheat God out of days, months and years we weren't supposed to have. If you can afford such treatment, then great. You bought yourself more time than you are naturally allowed. But what if you don't have that kind of money? Should somebody else pay for it or do you just accept your fate?

Years ago there was no such thing as medical costs. Medical care was pretty cheap as was insurance. So what happened between then and now?

Even on Obama Care, the price of a half-way decent plan is about the cost of an apartment, a mortgage payment, a car payment on the most expensive SUV you can buy for a single person. How are we able to afford it for ourselves yet alone for others?
. Wow Ray, so you are in favor of death panels ? Very revealing here.... Wow... Am I actually hearing right in here ?

Where did I write anything about death panels?
 
I doubt that because in their time everyone took care of themselves and if you had a problem family helped.

Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.

As I understand it, the greatest killer during the Civil War was disease, most notably diarrhea.

The point is, medicine has vastly improved within even the past decade. Those improvements have been the result of research (much of it on :eek: government grants) and application of amazing techniques that can save lives.

The thing is, those treatments cost money.

Now, I've seen countless posters lamenting the long lost era of the 1950s, but I've never seen anyone want to go back to the medical techniques of 1776...until today.

Well what happened when people got sick in 1776? They died, that's it.

By nature, we don't live very long lives. Medical care allows us to cheat God out of days, months and years we weren't supposed to have. If you can afford such treatment, then great. You bought yourself more time than you are naturally allowed. But what if you don't have that kind of money? Should somebody else pay for it or do you just accept your fate?

Years ago there was no such thing as medical costs. Medical care was pretty cheap as was insurance. So what happened between then and now?

Even on Obama Care, the price of a half-way decent plan is about the cost of an apartment, a mortgage payment, a car payment on the most expensive SUV you can buy for a single person. How are we able to afford it for ourselves yet alone for others?
. Obamacare was not the answer to the problem, but alot of things I hear in here is definitely not the answer either.
 
Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.

As I understand it, the greatest killer during the Civil War was disease, most notably diarrhea.

The point is, medicine has vastly improved within even the past decade. Those improvements have been the result of research (much of it on :eek: government grants) and application of amazing techniques that can save lives.

The thing is, those treatments cost money.

Now, I've seen countless posters lamenting the long lost era of the 1950s, but I've never seen anyone want to go back to the medical techniques of 1776...until today.

Well what happened when people got sick in 1776? They died, that's it.

By nature, we don't live very long lives. Medical care allows us to cheat God out of days, months and years we weren't supposed to have. If you can afford such treatment, then great. You bought yourself more time than you are naturally allowed. But what if you don't have that kind of money? Should somebody else pay for it or do you just accept your fate?

Years ago there was no such thing as medical costs. Medical care was pretty cheap as was insurance. So what happened between then and now?

Even on Obama Care, the price of a half-way decent plan is about the cost of an apartment, a mortgage payment, a car payment on the most expensive SUV you can buy for a single person. How are we able to afford it for ourselves yet alone for others?
. Wow Ray, so you are in favor of death panels ? Very revealing here.... Wow... Am I actually hearing right in here ?

Where did I write anything about death panels?
. It was interpreted from the words in your post... I mean how else can your cold words be calculated when you speak about people and their ability to pay for their care ? Didn't you even say that people should DIE at one point ?
 
I doubt that because in their time everyone took care of themselves and if you had a problem family helped.

Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.

As I understand it, the greatest killer during the Civil War was disease, most notably diarrhea.

The point is, medicine has vastly improved within even the past decade. Those improvements have been the result of research (much of it on :eek: government grants) and application of amazing techniques that can save lives.

The thing is, those treatments cost money.

Now, I've seen countless posters lamenting the long lost era of the 1950s, but I've never seen anyone want to go back to the medical techniques of 1776...until today.

Well what happened when people got sick in 1776? They died, that's it.

By nature, we don't live very long lives. Medical care allows us to cheat God out of days, months and years we weren't supposed to have. If you can afford such treatment, then great. You bought yourself more time than you are naturally allowed. But what if you don't have that kind of money? Should somebody else pay for it or do you just accept your fate?

Years ago there was no such thing as medical costs. Medical care was pretty cheap as was insurance. So what happened between then and now?

Even on Obama Care, the price of a half-way decent plan is about the cost of an apartment, a mortgage payment, a car payment on the most expensive SUV you can buy for a single person. How are we able to afford it for ourselves yet alone for others?
. Obamacare was not the answer to the problem, but alot of things I hear in here is definitely not the answer either.

In this topic, lots of things have been mentioned as to how to fix this problem; I've mentioned a few myself. Yet none of our politicians have mentioned many of these ideas nor addressed the problem.

The first problem which Commie Care never addressed was the cost of medical care and why it is so high. Could it be that these politicians really don't want to reveal what the problems are?

The flow chart should have been finding the problems with the expense of medical care, and then figuring out a way to pay for it. DumBama did it exactly backwards. They figured out how they were going to shift costs to other people but the cost of care still increases.
 
Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.

As I understand it, the greatest killer during the Civil War was disease, most notably diarrhea.

The point is, medicine has vastly improved within even the past decade. Those improvements have been the result of research (much of it on :eek: government grants) and application of amazing techniques that can save lives.

The thing is, those treatments cost money.

Now, I've seen countless posters lamenting the long lost era of the 1950s, but I've never seen anyone want to go back to the medical techniques of 1776...until today.

Well what happened when people got sick in 1776? They died, that's it.

By nature, we don't live very long lives. Medical care allows us to cheat God out of days, months and years we weren't supposed to have. If you can afford such treatment, then great. You bought yourself more time than you are naturally allowed. But what if you don't have that kind of money? Should somebody else pay for it or do you just accept your fate?

Years ago there was no such thing as medical costs. Medical care was pretty cheap as was insurance. So what happened between then and now?

Even on Obama Care, the price of a half-way decent plan is about the cost of an apartment, a mortgage payment, a car payment on the most expensive SUV you can buy for a single person. How are we able to afford it for ourselves yet alone for others?
. Wow Ray, so you are in favor of death panels ? Very revealing here.... Wow... Am I actually hearing right in here ?

Where did I write anything about death panels?
. It was interpreted from the words in your post... I mean how else can your cold words be calculated when you speak about people and their ability to pay for their care ? Didn't you even say that people should DIE at one point ?

What I did was ask some questions. Of course, most here would say no, we shouldn't let people die because their natural state would allow them to expire. Okay, fine, but if we are to extend the lives of these people (which is what we are actually doing) who is going to pay for it?
 
Maternal and infant mortality was rampant, and average life expectancy for those who made it out of childhood was 35.

Yay, let's go back to the Good Old Days!

Mostly because we didn't have the medical advances to make people live longer, not that they couldn't get medical care.

Years ago people used to die from all sorts of things. If you got the flu, you died in some cases. Get an infection, forget about it, you're gone. Clogged arteries of the heart, they only gave you how many weeks you had to live. Diabetes, another thing they couldn't successfully treat. I even read one article years ago that stated at one time, diarrhea was the number one killer in this country.

As I understand it, the greatest killer during the Civil War was disease, most notably diarrhea.

The point is, medicine has vastly improved within even the past decade. Those improvements have been the result of research (much of it on :eek: government grants) and application of amazing techniques that can save lives.

The thing is, those treatments cost money.

Now, I've seen countless posters lamenting the long lost era of the 1950s, but I've never seen anyone want to go back to the medical techniques of 1776...until today.

Well what happened when people got sick in 1776? They died, that's it.

By nature, we don't live very long lives. Medical care allows us to cheat God out of days, months and years we weren't supposed to have. If you can afford such treatment, then great. You bought yourself more time than you are naturally allowed. But what if you don't have that kind of money? Should somebody else pay for it or do you just accept your fate?

Years ago there was no such thing as medical costs. Medical care was pretty cheap as was insurance. So what happened between then and now?

Even on Obama Care, the price of a half-way decent plan is about the cost of an apartment, a mortgage payment, a car payment on the most expensive SUV you can buy for a single person. How are we able to afford it for ourselves yet alone for others?
. Wow Ray, so you are in favor of death panels ? Very revealing here.... Wow... Am I actually hearing right in here ?

Where did I write anything about death panels?
. Page 122 Ray... Your words... "If you don't have the ability to pay for care, then you don't get any. Die.
 

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