Nothing to do with us.

[Igrok_]

remember jokes on this photo from charlie hebdo magazine.

 

[Igrok_]

here they are :

that is liberal ideology.

 

[alpine]

We should do one of two things:

1) Completely destroy ISIS with combined land, sea and air forces, and to kill them without mercy even if they try to surrender.

or

2) Pull completely out and let someone else solve the problem.

Pulling out completely from 50% of the worlds oil reserves could be a little problematic.

On the other hand, every society on this planet, including ME, is "diversified".

If whole ME was like ISIS, did like ISIS, they would not be waging a war.

We need to look at the region, see who ISIS is waging war against, and getting along together.

ISIS waging war against; Alawites, Kurds, Christians of ME, Seculars of Turkey, Shia of Iraq, European countries, USA...

That means, all these groups together, are "natural" allies.

 

[eagle1462010]

We should do one of two things:

1) Completely destroy ISIS with combined land, sea and air forces, and to kill them without mercy even if they try to surrender.

or

2) Pull completely out and let someone else solve the problem.

Pulling out completely from 50% of the worlds oil reserves could be a little problematic.

On the other hand, every society on this planet, including ME, is "diverseified".

If whole ME was like ISIS, did like ISIS, they would not be waging a war.

We need to look at the region, see who ISIS is waging war against, and getting along together.

ISIS waging war against; Alawites, Kurds, Christians of ME, seculars of Turkey, European countries, USA...

That means, all these groups together, are "natural" allies.

Problem with that...............Our country and many of those that are natural allies want to KILL ASSAD..............as his ties are with Iran................they are Sunni..........they don't want anymore expansion of Shia...............Turkey could wipe the floor with ISIS as their troops are right across the border...............but allas they have been supporting ISIS because they want ASSAD DEAD..................and any invasion by the TURKS would turn them loose on the Kurds..........they'd kill them first........................

Key to the problem of getting the forces in there is what to do with Assad...................My position is let him stay and hold the danged place afterwards...........because letting him fall would force 10's of millions more Syrians out...............because they'd have to pretty much lose the Southern THIRD of the country for that to happen..................and there is a

THAR...............

Pun intended.

 

[Blackrook]

When I was a kid I read the entire series of books about World War II published by Time Life.

It started out small. The Spanish Civil War. The German reoccupation of the Rhineland. The Italian invasion of Ethiopia. Germany breaking the Versailles treaty and rearming itself. The German invasion of Austria. Finally, the West tried to deal with Hitler over it's claims that Czechoslovakian German population should be allowed to join Germany.

And then there was the Soviet-German non-aggression pact, which meant that Great Britain and France would face the Nazis without help from the Soviet Union.

Everyone saw it coming, but there didn't seem any way to stop it.

And what about now? I do not see a way this will end anytime soon. We've already been at war since 2001, making this the longest war the United States has ever been in. And we are no closer to peace or victory than we started.

 

[eagle1462010]

When I was a kid I read the entire series of books about World War II published by Time Life.

It started out small. The Spanish Civil War. The German reoccupation of the Rhineland. The Italian invasion of Ethiopia. Germany breaking the Versailles treaty and rearming itself. The German invasion of Austria. Finally, the West tried to deal with Hitler over it's claims that Czechoslovakian German population should be allowed to join Germany.

And then there was the Soviet-German non-aggression pact, which meant that Great Britain and France would face the Nazis without help from the Soviet Union.

Everyone saw it coming, but there didn't seem any way to stop it.

And what about now? I do not see a way this will end anytime soon. We've already been at war since 2001, making this the longest war the United States has ever been in. And we are no closer to peace or victory than we started.

That is because we no longer fight it as a War.................And we are fighting in the quick sand of the Middle East.............that has made Leaders look like fools for ...........well.................forever...............because they can't grasp the difference in cultures............

Bush thought he could create a Western Democracy there...........spent Trillions there trying to prove it...........thought they'd love us over it..................he UNDERESTIMATED the culture of the ME.

This ends when we send in our forces and pound ISIS into the ground like FENCE POSTS................and as you said...........as a WAR...........DESTROY THEM UTTERLY.............

 

[alpine]

We should do one of two things:

1) Completely destroy ISIS with combined land, sea and air forces, and to kill them without mercy even if they try to surrender.

or

2) Pull completely out and let someone else solve the problem.

Pulling out completely from 50% of the worlds oil reserves could be a little problematic.

On the other hand, every society on this planet, including ME, is "diverseified".

If whole ME was like ISIS, did like ISIS, they would not be waging a war.

We need to look at the region, see who ISIS is waging war against, and getting along together.

ISIS waging war against; Alawites, Kurds, Christians of ME, seculars of Turkey, European countries, USA...

That means, all these groups together, are "natural" allies.

Problem with that...............Our country and many of those that are natural allies want to KILL ASSAD..............as his ties are with Iran................they are Sunni..........they don't want anymore expansion of Shia...............Turkey could wipe the floor with ISIS as their troops are right across the border...............but allas they have been supporting ISIS because they want ASSAD DEAD..................and any invasion by the TURKS would turn them loose on the Kurds..........they'd kill them first........................

Key to the problem of getting the forces in there is what to do with Assad...................My position is let him stay and hold the danged place afterwards...........because letting him fall would force 10's of millions more Syrians out...............because they'd have to pretty much lose the Southern THIRD of the country for that to happen..................and there is a

THAR...............

Pun intended.

I agree, after the Russian involvement, it is much harder for the US to get in the right alignment.

We shall see how long more the crumbling Russian economy can take this involvement. Russia is trying to look like a threat, but in fact, they are merely trying to survive. But one thing is certain, they have invested a lot, and they want to see the roi before anything else.

But again, this is a long game, and US will have the opportunity to re-set this game before it is finished.

Regarding Turkey. Turkey has been a hardliner secular state from its beginning in 1923. In fact, it was the first secular state with muslim majority, in the universe.

With the soviet threat expanding in the 70s-80s, US foreign policy, unfortunately was aiming to support a green belt around soviet Russia, an islamist movement, so they thought, they could stop any sympathy to atheist soviet regime right on its tracks.

Well, it worked, Turkey never did slide to the soviet Russia, but the outcome was not even close what American people would have wished for. Rather than a modern secular Turkish Republic, now there was a confused society moving towards an islamist world view in a fast pace. And as a result, Erdogan rose to power.

But never underestimate the seculars of Turkey. ISIS pigs blew themselves up in a rally where seculars were opposing the islamist government of Erdogan, killing 100s of people, blowing them into pieces. And guess what, Turkish seculars are still on the streets protesting Erdogan's islamonazi government. And they have a pretty good grasp in the army.

With the right conditions and support, they can grab the power in Turkey and change her from an ISIS supporting state to a real ally of the civilization of this world.

As I said before; got to find the right people with the same world view and become allies with them, rather than finding some bs allies like Saudis and Qatar and Erdogan...

 

[flacaltenn]

WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE BELOW




Is this anything to do with US/UK policy ?

Sure --- but not the way YOU ARE portraying it. On a purely emotional "dead kid" level.. The kid is dead because no less than 25 different Arab factions are fighting the equivalent of Catholic/Protestant holy war for the future of Islam. The Arabs never seem to give a crap about civilians in wars like these. In fact civilians are ENROLLED by default in these conflicts.

So what WAS the proper role of the U.N. and Western powers? Certainly what happened is that they couldn't decide which of 25 factions needed to be supported and they FORGOT -- because of the lack of leadership that the CIVILIAN crisis should have been their 1st priority. To create safe places IN COUNTRY for Yazidis, Kurds, Syrians that were NOT combatant. The solution was never that "they should all just come live with us". The solution was to give them guarded sanctuaries in county whilst the hotheads killed each other. Not a matter of bombing the COMBATANTS at all. In fact, we should have been kissing Assad's ass and begging for forgiveness and STABILIZING Syria first -- and THEN getting concessions from him. Let Assad take his country back from ISIS and the other 24 PROXY factions.. We DON'T need to do that. (that was the only thing stopping me from "thanking" Eagle's otherwise excellent summary --- )

WE (the UK and US) have created enough voids of power over there. Don't NEED another one. Arabs REQUIRE strong man dictatorships to keep this shit from happening. And we shouldn't be encouraging parents to load their children into dangerous boats making dangerous crossings. We should be sheltering them IN PLACE until power is restored. And then deal with that power diplomatically.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

When I was a kid I read the entire series of books about World War II published by Time Life.

It started out small. The Spanish Civil War. The German reoccupation of the Rhineland. The Italian invasion of Ethiopia. Germany breaking the Versailles treaty and rearming itself. The German invasion of Austria. Finally, the West tried to deal with Hitler over it's claims that Czechoslovakian German population should be allowed to join Germany.

And then there was the Soviet-German non-aggression pact, which meant that Great Britain and France would face the Nazis without help from the Soviet Union.

Everyone saw it coming, but there didn't seem any way to stop it.

And what about now? I do not see a way this will end anytime soon. We've already been at war since 2001, making this the longest war the United States has ever been in. And we are no closer to peace or victory than we started.

That is because we no longer fight it as a War.................And we are fighting in the quick sand of the Middle East.............that has made Leaders look like fools for ...........well.................forever...............because they can't grasp the difference in cultures............

Bush thought he could create a Western Democracy there...........spent Trillions there trying to prove it...........thought they'd love us over it..................he UNDERESTIMATED the culture of the ME.

This ends when we send in our forces and pound ISIS into the ground like FENCE POSTS................and as you said...........as a WAR...........DESTROY THEM UTTERLY.............

Wow ! You are crazy. It ends when the causes of ISIS are tackled. Poverty,education,injustice and so on. People who have nothing to lose are generally not bothered about losing it.

 

[eagle1462010]

When I was a kid I read the entire series of books about World War II published by Time Life.

It started out small. The Spanish Civil War. The German reoccupation of the Rhineland. The Italian invasion of Ethiopia. Germany breaking the Versailles treaty and rearming itself. The German invasion of Austria. Finally, the West tried to deal with Hitler over it's claims that Czechoslovakian German population should be allowed to join Germany.

And then there was the Soviet-German non-aggression pact, which meant that Great Britain and France would face the Nazis without help from the Soviet Union.

Everyone saw it coming, but there didn't seem any way to stop it.

And what about now? I do not see a way this will end anytime soon. We've already been at war since 2001, making this the longest war the United States has ever been in. And we are no closer to peace or victory than we started.

That is because we no longer fight it as a War.................And we are fighting in the quick sand of the Middle East.............that has made Leaders look like fools for ...........well.................forever...............because they can't grasp the difference in cultures............

Bush thought he could create a Western Democracy there...........spent Trillions there trying to prove it...........thought they'd love us over it..................he UNDERESTIMATED the culture of the ME.

This ends when we send in our forces and pound ISIS into the ground like FENCE POSTS................and as you said...........as a WAR...........DESTROY THEM UTTERLY.............

Wow ! You are crazy. It ends when the causes of ISIS are tackled. Poverty,education,injustice and so on. People who have nothing to lose are generally not bothered about losing it.

How so? Take a good long look at what is going on in ISIS controlled areas............Perhaps you can play a game of soccer with someone's head if you go tell them that crap in person. Perhaps you can be a hood ornament for them. Perhaps get nailed to a cross, or burned alive.

Those types don't give a fuck about your Brotherly love BS. They want their Islam to dominate the world. Just Nazi's on a smaller scale............Maximum strength on the battle field at around 50000 from what I've read. If we go in and deal with them they don't have a rats ass chance in hell of beating us. But they of course would drop their weapons and then say WE ARE GOOD NOW.............Just as they have been doing for over a decade in places like Iraq...................

Drink the Kool Aide...........oops..........Drink the tainted Tea............Mr. Chamberland.

 

[eagle1462010]

When I was a kid I read the entire series of books about World War II published by Time Life.

It started out small. The Spanish Civil War. The German reoccupation of the Rhineland. The Italian invasion of Ethiopia. Germany breaking the Versailles treaty and rearming itself. The German invasion of Austria. Finally, the West tried to deal with Hitler over it's claims that Czechoslovakian German population should be allowed to join Germany.

And then there was the Soviet-German non-aggression pact, which meant that Great Britain and France would face the Nazis without help from the Soviet Union.

Everyone saw it coming, but there didn't seem any way to stop it.

And what about now? I do not see a way this will end anytime soon. We've already been at war since 2001, making this the longest war the United States has ever been in. And we are no closer to peace or victory than we started.

That is because we no longer fight it as a War.................And we are fighting in the quick sand of the Middle East.............that has made Leaders look like fools for ...........well.................forever...............because they can't grasp the difference in cultures............

Bush thought he could create a Western Democracy there...........spent Trillions there trying to prove it...........thought they'd love us over it..................he UNDERESTIMATED the culture of the ME.

This ends when we send in our forces and pound ISIS into the ground like FENCE POSTS................and as you said...........as a WAR...........DESTROY THEM UTTERLY.............

Wow ! You are crazy. It ends when the causes of ISIS are tackled. Poverty,education,injustice and so on. People who have nothing to lose are generally not bothered about losing it.

BTW..........we borrowed a couple of Trillion Dollars to do exactly what you are saying in places like Iraq.........How did it work out? You would of course say we didn't bring Justice though..................

Tell that to the masses who are now dying in a Civil War over there between Sunni's and Shia's.............who are killing each other in a Regional Game of Thrones over there.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

When I was a kid I read the entire series of books about World War II published by Time Life.

It started out small. The Spanish Civil War. The German reoccupation of the Rhineland. The Italian invasion of Ethiopia. Germany breaking the Versailles treaty and rearming itself. The German invasion of Austria. Finally, the West tried to deal with Hitler over it's claims that Czechoslovakian German population should be allowed to join Germany.

And then there was the Soviet-German non-aggression pact, which meant that Great Britain and France would face the Nazis without help from the Soviet Union.

Everyone saw it coming, but there didn't seem any way to stop it.

And what about now? I do not see a way this will end anytime soon. We've already been at war since 2001, making this the longest war the United States has ever been in. And we are no closer to peace or victory than we started.

That is because we no longer fight it as a War.................And we are fighting in the quick sand of the Middle East.............that has made Leaders look like fools for ...........well.................forever...............because they can't grasp the difference in cultures............
Bush thought he could create a Western Democracy there...........spent Trillions there trying to prove it...........thought they'd love us over it..................he UNDERESTIMATED the culture of the ME.

This ends when we send in our forces and pound ISIS into the ground like FENCE POSTS................and as you said...........as a WAR...........DESTROY THEM UTTERLY.............

Wow ! You are crazy. It ends when the causes of ISIS are tackled. Poverty,education,injustice and so on. People who have nothing to lose are generally not bothered about losing it.

How so? Take a good long look at what is going on in ISIS controlled areas............Perhaps you can play a game of soccer with someone's head if you go tell them that crap in person. Perhaps you can be a hood ornament for them. Perhaps get nailed to a cross, or burned alive.

Those types don't give a fuck about your Brotherly love BS. They want their Islam to dominate the world. Just Nazi's on a smaller scale............Maximum strength on the battle field at around 50000 from what I've read. If we go in and deal with them they don't have a rats ass chance in hell of beating us. But they of course would drop their weapons and then say WE ARE GOOD NOW.............Just as they have been doing for over a decade in places like Iraq...................

Drink the Kool Aide...........oops..........Drink the tainted Tea............Mr. Chamberland.

I am trying to put this into simple terms that you might understand. You cant fight an ideology with guns.

Your solution is primitive, half witted and simplistic. Unless you intend to KILL EVERYBODY of course ?

 

[eagle1462010]

When I was a kid I read the entire series of books about World War II published by Time Life.

It started out small. The Spanish Civil War. The German reoccupation of the Rhineland. The Italian invasion of Ethiopia. Germany breaking the Versailles treaty and rearming itself. The German invasion of Austria. Finally, the West tried to deal with Hitler over it's claims that Czechoslovakian German population should be allowed to join Germany.

And then there was the Soviet-German non-aggression pact, which meant that Great Britain and France would face the Nazis without help from the Soviet Union.

Everyone saw it coming, but there didn't seem any way to stop it.

And what about now? I do not see a way this will end anytime soon. We've already been at war since 2001, making this the longest war the United States has ever been in. And we are no closer to peace or victory than we started.

That is because we no longer fight it as a War.................And we are fighting in the quick sand of the Middle East.............that has made Leaders look like fools for ...........well.................forever...............because they can't grasp the difference in cultures............
Bush thought he could create a Western Democracy there...........spent Trillions there trying to prove it...........thought they'd love us over it..................he UNDERESTIMATED the culture of the ME.

This ends when we send in our forces and pound ISIS into the ground like FENCE POSTS................and as you said...........as a WAR...........DESTROY THEM UTTERLY.............

Wow ! You are crazy. It ends when the causes of ISIS are tackled. Poverty,education,injustice and so on. People who have nothing to lose are generally not bothered about losing it.

How so? Take a good long look at what is going on in ISIS controlled areas............Perhaps you can play a game of soccer with someone's head if you go tell them that crap in person. Perhaps you can be a hood ornament for them. Perhaps get nailed to a cross, or burned alive.

Those types don't give a fuck about your Brotherly love BS. They want their Islam to dominate the world. Just Nazi's on a smaller scale............Maximum strength on the battle field at around 50000 from what I've read. If we go in and deal with them they don't have a rats ass chance in hell of beating us. But they of course would drop their weapons and then say WE ARE GOOD NOW.............Just as they have been doing for over a decade in places like Iraq...................

Drink the Kool Aide...........oops..........Drink the tainted Tea............Mr. Chamberland.

I am trying to put this into simple terms that you might understand. You cant fight an ideology with guns.

Your solution is primitive, half witted and simplistic. Unless you intend to KILL EVERYBODY of course ?

That Ideology is Killing everybody In Northern Syria and Iraq..............Yes their solution is Primitive, half witted and simplistic...........In regards to ISIS..........Yes the INTENTION is to KILL EVERYONE OF THEM

You need to take a good look at what's going on over there. Have you even been over there?

The Game of Thrones is a fitting theme for it..

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Your "solution" would bring about the end of the world. Tackle the causes of ISIS is the sensible way to go. Start with some justice for Palestine.

 

[eagle1462010]

A good movie for you Mr. Chamberland. WWI where British and French attacked and drove out the Turks and the Huns............Your country back then occupied the entire region, and then laid the foot work for the nations that exist there.

It was your country that used the Zimmerman Note and Balfour Declaration to get the United States into the War. Your country and France created the countries of Syria, Jordan and the rest and you did it by occupation.

Even though it was basically your plan, your country ABSTAINED in the vote to create Israel..............Your side long ago helped to lay out these areas and it was done by KILLING and WAR.

Enjoy the quick movie clip. This battle allowed the forces to take Gaza and then walk into Jerusalem.

 

[eagle1462010]

Your "solution" would bring about the end of the world. Tackle the causes of ISIS is the sensible way to go. Start with some justice for Palestine.

That's ridiculous...............Taking out ISIS is the end of the world? Especially when every country in the whole dang region, INCLUDING THE UK are currently bombing and killing them EVERYDAY...................

Justice for Palestine............so your true colors are showing.............Your a Muslim immigrant pushing for a Palestinian State..........An area that shoots rockets nearly every day at Israel and then whines when the IDF kills their asses for doing so..........

 

[Tommy Tainant]

You would not take out Isis you simpleton.You would kill a few nutters and create martyrs. The injustice that created these monsters would still exist. Cant you see that ?

I watched an extremist being interviewed a little while back. He stated that he became radicalised by seeing the images of ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. The Bosnians did not "take out" their problem they made it worse. America created ISIS through its shambolic war in Iraq. When will you ever learn ?
Palestine is a stain on the world. America could tell Israel to put its house in order but chooses not to.

 

[eagle1462010]

You would not take out Isis you simpleton.You would kill a few nutters and create martyrs. The injustice that created these monsters would still exist. Cant you see that ?

I watched an extremist being interviewed a little while back. He stated that he became radicalised by seeing the images of ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. The Bosnians did not "take out" their problem they made it worse. America created ISIS through its shambolic war in Iraq. When will you ever learn ?
Palestine is a stain on the world. America could tell Israel to put its house in order but chooses not to.

Funny you mention Bosnia.............as it was America that stopped the ethnic cleansing.

Why did OBL hate us...............Because of the 1st Gulf War which was sanctioned by the UN....which would include your country.

It would be more than a few in Syria...........so what should the world do.........sit back and watch them murder whole villages of people, sell little girls as sex slaves.........Starve entire cities full of people. Some of the actions in Syria remind me of WWII. You are already defeated...............As your countries turn to chaos in Europe because you decided to let so many in instead of dealing with the problem in Syria, just as we have minimally hit them. Yet our planes, UK planes, French planes, Jordan planes, Russian planes, are flying missions EVERY DAY NOW to do exactly what I'm saying.

I guess in your world.......with pixie dust they are dropping flowers and job applications to them.

 

[alpine]

You would not take out Isis you simpleton.You would kill a few nutters and create martyrs. The injustice that created these monsters would still exist. Cant you see that ?

I watched an extremist being interviewed a little while back. He stated that he became radicalised by seeing the images of ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. The Bosnians did not "take out" their problem they made it worse. America created ISIS through its shambolic war in Iraq. When will you ever learn ?
Palestine is a stain on the world. America could tell Israel to put its house in order but chooses not to.

You can turn "anyone" into a maniac wanting to kill, by simply washing his brain. These are simple people with no education and no world view. This is not the question here.

The question is: Why do we see flocks of people being brain washed for the purpose of undermining the civilization on this planet, especially from the ME?

Trying to explain this situation by the injustice ME people have been receiving from the western powers, would simply be ignoring the FACT that, WHOLE WORLD have been receiving the same injustice from the western powers, for the last 100s of years throughout the history.


ME people get a free pass for their rage against humanity, while;

Vietnam, Vietnamese people, who have felt the same harsh treatment and injustice from the west, are trying to improve themselves, build a better future for their children, in peace...

India was under British occupation for a looooong fucking time, and believe me, they didnt enjoy it more than the ME people did, but again we don't see them blowing themselves up in the middle of the peaceful civilians.

China

Africa

South America

Native Americans


WHOLE FUCKING WORLD, got their share from the injustice

but only ME nuts deserve a FUCKING FREE PASS, I guess.....


BULLSHIT!

 

[Tilly]

you might want to post a link to the story behind that.

He died trying to escape from hell.

He was in Turkey.