Obama solicitor general: If you don't like mandate, EARN LESS MONEY

[teapartysamurai]

So states are allowed to have nuclear weapons?

No, they fall under national defense, which is the jurisdiction of the federal government.

Oh ok, got it. So it's assumed is what you're saying?

Just like levying taxes is under the jurisdiction of the fed govt?

You avoided that.

Obama INSISTED this was NOT a new tax.

Are you telling us this IS a new tax?

You didn't answer that. I wonder why?

 

[teapartysamurai]

Do you even know how the mandate will operate?

The federal government tells you to buy health insurance and provide proof that you are. If you don't provide proof then you will be penalized on your annual tax returns.

Thanks. I was trying to force her to read up a bit. You let her off easy.

That didn't answer the question.

Because a tax is something you pay to the government, NOT health insurance.

Is it a tax OR A MANDATE?

Because the federal government does not have the power to mandate we buy something.

You keep changing your story.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Thanks. I was trying to force her to read up a bit. You let her off easy.

Seems like you need the reading up, not her.

So it is a tax or not?

It's enforced by the IRS through your taxes, so you tell me.

THE PENALTY IS ENFORCED BY THE IRS, not the mandate!

Doesn't work.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Do you even know how the mandate will operate?

I do! I do!

It will be a penalty collected by the IRS.

When we want to slide it by voters, who we know will be opposed to a tax increase, we'll call it a 'fine' - a penalty for not submitting to the mandate.

When we want to slide it by judges, or those concerned about unconstitutional government, we'll call it 'tax' - a power the constitution clearly allows.

In other words, we'll call it whatever we have to - equivocate till the cows come home - to expand federal power and enrich our buddies in the insurance industry.

Go team!

Right, won't get any disagreement from me. It certainly does enrich the insurance companies even further, which is a true shame. And you can call it what you want, but if you choose not to purchase health insurance, you're going to have to pay extra on your taxes.

THAT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

The Federal government has no authority to order us to purchase anything!

Nor do they have the right to penalize us for NOT purchasing anything.

You can't just tax people who won't do what the federal government unconstitutionally orders.

That's a violation of the equal protection clause!

Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to thejurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

The federal government cannot force someone to pay a "tax" to the IRS for refusing to buy something for which the Congress has no power in the first place.

Congress has no power to force us to buy health insurance.

No matter how you apply this, as a "tax" or a mandate, Congress doesn't have the power to apply it.

 

[teapartysamurai]

It's enforced by the IRS through your taxes, so you tell me.

Are you able to give a straight answer?
I'm asking you: Is it a tax or not?

Seems to me that it is.

Then explain why the Obama admin insists that it isn't a tax.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Of course it is.

So what is it a tax on?
If I earn income, I pay tax on my income. If I buy a pack of cigarettes I pay tax on the cigarettes. If I manufacture guns, I pay a tax on what I make.
In each case I must do something positive to incur the tax.

Here doing nothing will incur the tax. What kind of tax is that? WHere is Congress authorized to impose a tax on doing nothing?
Never mind Obama denied it was a tax.

If you show up at a hospital without insurance, they will not turn you away. They will still stabilize you at the very least. Consider it a tax for that.

And despite what you may think, I don't believe every word that Obama or any politican says. Politicians have been known to lie once in a while.

Congress has no power to order us to buy or pay for someone else showing up at the hospital with no insurance!

And if Politicians lie then WHY are you glomming onto Obamacare as if it's a great idea, when you just admitted it's a big lie?

Thank you for admitting it's a lie.

It's also unconstitutional.

So YOU LOSE!

 

[RDD_1210]

Are you able to give a straight answer?
I'm asking you: Is it a tax or not?

Seems to me that it is.

Then explain why the Obama admin insists that it isn't a tax.

Because politicians lie. This shouldnt be surprising.

He doesnt want to have sound bytes of him admitting it was a tax when he promised no raising taxes on the middle class.

 

[boedicca]

Seems to me that it is.

Then explain why the Obama admin insists that it isn't a tax.

Because politicians lie. This shouldnt be surprising.

He doesnt want to have sound bytes of him admitting it was a tax when he promised no raising taxes on the middle class.

It's not at all surprising that you are copacetic with such "ends justify the means" dishonesty.

 

[RDD_1210]

So what is it a tax on?
If I earn income, I pay tax on my income. If I buy a pack of cigarettes I pay tax on the cigarettes. If I manufacture guns, I pay a tax on what I make.
In each case I must do something positive to incur the tax.

Here doing nothing will incur the tax. What kind of tax is that? WHere is Congress authorized to impose a tax on doing nothing?
Never mind Obama denied it was a tax.

If you show up at a hospital without insurance, they will not turn you away. They will still stabilize you at the very least. Consider it a tax for that.

And despite what you may think, I don't believe every word that Obama or any politican says. Politicians have been known to lie once in a while.

Congress has no power to order us to buy or pay for someone else showing up at the hospital with no insurance!

And if Politicians lie then WHY are you glomming onto Obamacare as if it's a great idea, when you just admitted it's a big lie?

Thank you for admitting it's a lie.

It's also unconstitutional.

So YOU LOSE!

Because unlike you, I took the time to read the actual bill to understand for myself what it does. I didnt take anyones word for it, not Obama, not the republicans, because they all like to spin it their own way. I have a nasty habit of doing my own research, you should try it sometime.

If thats losing, I dont want to win.

 

[RDD_1210]

Then explain why the Obama admin insists that it isn't a tax.

Because politicians lie. This shouldnt be surprising.

He doesnt want to have sound bytes of him admitting it was a tax when he promised no raising taxes on the middle class.

It's not at all surprising that you are copacetic with such "ends justify the means" dishonesty.

You believe everything that politicians say?

 

[teapartysamurai]

Here we go again. You're obviously a "it must explicitly stated it in the constitution" person. Ok, then I assume you are against all nuclear weapons and the air force.

You can call me all the names you want, I know it's what you do. But do you ever step back and think that you're arguing against your own self interests by being against a mandate. If you truly are against freeloaders, you would be in favor of people being required to pay for insurance. But no, you're going to pretend like some sort of freedom is being taken away when in reality you're already paying for other peoples healthcare and you have no say in the matter. THAT would either be extreme short-sightedness or blatant ignorance, I'll let you pick.

I'm for the Constitution. Nowhere in that document does it state that the Government can force anyone to buy anything. If they choose not to buy insurance, that's their decision. Let them accept the consequences.

Every country in the world that has a 'single payer' system is collapsing under the weight of it. That's true. Research it. And by research, I mean you need to actually research, not google it and link to an MSNBC article.

Learn to think critically instead of accepting one side as fact and the other as bullshit.

How about you just back this statement about every other nation.
I don't actually expect you to, you never do.you put the statement out here in the debate, back it up or shut th fuck up.

I don't care if every other country in the world has fairies with healing power in their wings shooting out of their butts, A MANDATE TO BUY HEALTH INSURANCE IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL.

Congress has NO POWER to force me to buy health insurance, PERIOD!

 

[teapartysamurai]

Just like nowhere in the document does it state we should be using nuclear weapons or an air force. Funny how you skipped over that part.

When people don't purchase insurance it's not them that suffers the consequences, it's the rest of us who pay higher rates to cover their care. Are you ignorant to that fact? Or are you of the opinion that if you can't afford care, you shouldn't receive it?

Learn to live in todays world.

I ignore strawmen and bullshit and deal with the topic under discussion. If you can't focus on the topic, find another thread to whine in.

The rest of us should not be paying for other people's bad decisions. Simple. I don't want to pay for smokers, drinkers or drug users. They make their choices, let them pay for them. It's not my business.

I agree, therefore red states should not get any federal aid anymore.I am tired of supporting bad choices. I mean who lives in kansas?

Bunch of freeloaders they are.

I would LOVE not to get anymore federal aid, IF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD RECIPROCATE BY NOT TAKING MY MONEY IN SUCH TAXES!

Freeloaders!

You are the greedy liberal free-loaders who want everyone else's money!

It's "greedy" for us to object to what the federal government says we have to do with our money???

The GREED is coming from you. You want power over other people's money soooooooo bad, that if you can't get your mitts on it personally, you'll take your liberal ilk having power over it, as a close second.

Your arguments fool no one.

The bottom line is Congress has no power to order us to buy anything.

This is not about healthcare. It's about wealth distribution and liberals getting non-stop power over the earnings of others.

You libs are the biggest free-loaders of all.

 

[teapartysamurai]

If you show up at a hospital without insurance, they will not turn you away. They will still stabilize you at the very least. Consider it a tax for that.

And despite what you may think, I don't believe every word that Obama or any politican says. Politicians have been known to lie once in a while.

What if I never show up at a hospital without insurance? I'll still have to pay the tax.
That is a nonsense argument. That's like charging people in Nevada beach maintenance fees because maybe California will slide into the ocean.

Actually it's nothing like that at all. Everyone gets sick, accidents happen. No one is immune to these things. Such is life.

Every one gets sick. Why does that make it the business of the federal government?

 

[teapartysamurai]

Actually it's nothing like that at all. Everyone gets sick, accidents happen. No one is immune to these things. Such is life.

I'm 49 years old and have never been in the hospital, much less the emergency room.
Remind me why I need to pay a tax on something I've never done and may never do.
You've skirted the question of what this is a tax on. You cannot tax non-activity.

So if Rabbi has never been to the hospital, that means no one has. This is where you want to go? Really? LOL.

I didnt skirt a thing. I told you what it was for, you just didn't like the answer.

You are skirting a lot!

Why should a healthy individual be forced to pay for someone else's healthcare?

 

[RDD_1210]

I ignore strawmen and bullshit and deal with the topic under discussion. If you can't focus on the topic, find another thread to whine in.

The rest of us should not be paying for other people's bad decisions. Simple. I don't want to pay for smokers, drinkers or drug users. They make their choices, let them pay for them. It's not my business.

I agree, therefore red states should not get any federal aid anymore.I am tired of supporting bad choices. I mean who lives in kansas?

Bunch of freeloaders they are.

I would LOVE not to get anymore federal aid, IF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD RECIPROCATE BY NOT TAKING MY MONEY IN SUCH TAXES!

Freeloaders!

You are the greedy liberal free-loaders who want everyone else's money!

It's "greedy" for us to object to what the federal government says we have to do with our money???

The GREED is coming from you. You want power over other people's money soooooooo bad, that if you can't get your mitts on it personally, you'll take your liberal ilk having power over it, as a close second.

Your arguments fool no one.

The bottom line is Congress has no power to order us to buy anything.

This is not about healthcare. It's about wealth distribution and liberals getting non-stop power over the earnings of others.

You libs are the biggest free-loaders of all.

You need to relax and get a grip on reality.

 

[teapartysamurai]

So if Rabbi has never been to the hospital, that means no one has. This is where you want to go? Really? LOL.

I didnt skirt a thing. I told you what it was for, you just didn't like the answer.

So everyone is going to the hospital. That's your argument, really?
You never answered what the tax was a tax on. Income tax is a tax on income. Capital gains tax is a tax on capital gains. Gasoline tax is a tax on gasoline.
So what is Obamacare's tax a tax on?

"Free" health care.

If it's "free" why am I REQUIRED by Congress to buy it??????

Boy you lose on that one!

 

[teapartysamurai]

"Free" health care.

If you never use health care you still have to pay the money.
FAIL.

Everyone eventually needs health care. Everyone.

Goody!

Congress still does not have the right or the power to force us to buy it.

 

[The T]

If you never use health care you still have to pay the money.
FAIL.

Everyone eventually needs health care. Everyone.

Goody!

Congress still does not have the right or the power to force us to buy it.

This is what they don't understand. Obama has cited either 'Taxing Authority' of the Congress, -or- The Commerce Clause...

Neither are germain as the Constitution goes.

 

[RDD_1210]

If you never use health care you still have to pay the money.
FAIL.

Everyone eventually needs health care. Everyone.

Goody!

Congress still does not have the right or the power to force us to buy it.

Sure they do

 

[teapartysamurai]

Everyone eventually needs health care. Everyone.

Everyone NEEDS food.

Everyone NEEDS clothes.

Everyone NEEDS shelter.

Needs are endless. Resources aren't. What you are advocating is a government system which decides which person's needs are more important than another's needs.

The road to that is a destruction of living standards for everyone, except those who are in control of the rationing process.

I am advocating no such thing. Health care for all does not discriminate.

Taxing those who refuse to buy something for which Congress has no power to mandate DOES DISCRIMINATE!

You, yourself said the penalty for not buying healthcare WAS A TAX.

You can't tax people unequally based on a mandate FOR WHICH CONGRESS HAS NO POWER.

You lose on that.