Once again, Venezuela "Feeling the Bern" of socialism

[Andylusion]

I love the way rightard dumb fucks ignore the social democracies of the west and insist on comparing their own feeding frenzy of a society to new world republics that have been destabilised by being aligned with US interests for decades.

Another far left drone that does not understand that socialism is a failure..

If what they have in Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark and Finland is a failure, then I want me some failure for this country too, dude.

It's not socialism either.

It is a type of socialism, 'democratic socialism' or 'social democracy', take your pick, but this is what Sanders is wanting to put in place..

Nordic model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway,Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5]

Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.[7]

Each of the Nordic countries has its own economic and social models, sometimes with large differences from its neighbours.[8] According to sociologist Lane Kenworthy, in the context of the Nordic model, "social democracy" refers to a set of policies for promoting economic security and opportunity within the framework of capitalism rather than a system to replace capitalism....
United States Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT), a self-described democratic socialist, has been a strong proponent of the Nordic system.

Just ask the conservatives here, but Welfare state systems are a form of socialism.

Yes, welfare states are a form of socialism. Of course it is.

Sanders doesn't know what he wants to put in place.

Again, you claim Bernie wishes to put in place the Nordic Model, and yet every single Nordic country has a corporate tax rate that is almost half of our tax rate.

Do you see Bernie supporting cutting corporate taxes? No. I supports raising taxes. So it doesn't matter how much you post that Bernie wants the Nordic model, he doesn't.

Is that the only example? No.

Take Immigration. Bernie Sanders has made repeated claims of open immigration. But nearly all of the Nordic countries are extremely closed to immigration, and are very uniform culturally. They actively oppose multiculturalism.

So it doesn't matter how much he says he supports the Nordic model, he doesn't.

Moreover, Union participation in all Nordic countries has been falling steadily for over a decade.

Even the supposed claim that we should have Nordic style social programs, isn't actually true.

For example, Sweden's considered generous benefits, are nearly all contingent on work, and if you don't work, you don't get them.

Unemployment compensation for example....
https://www.issa.int/html/pdf/workshop/bruxelles06/2lundgren.pdf

Sweden's own government agency said this:

It should not be paid unless the individual has the possibility to take on work during at least a minimum number of hours each week. It should require that the individual looks for work actively. It should require of the individual to participate in labour market programmes which aim at supporting the individual's possibilities to reenter into the labour market. The person should not in the long run be allowed to look only for the same kind of job as they had before or have the training for. The person should not in the long run be allowed to look only for a job within a limited geographical area.
​

So, you only get unemployment compensation if you are able to work, looking for work, take part in work programs, you are willing to work outside of your existing training and experience, willing to work outside of your current location.

Now, do you see Bernie supporting any of those requirements for welfare? By the way, did you know that Sweden doesn't have a straight welfare program at all? You are expected to work. The only program that exists, is Unemployment Comp, for when you are between working. There is no, you are poor, therefore you get money, program.

By the way, did you know that welfare payments are capped at 300 days, and capped to $80 a day? By the way, you only get 80% to 70% of your 12 month average wage. The maximum pay out is $20,000 a year. The minimum is $38 a day, or little less than $10,000 a year.

You realize that many states pay out more in welfare, than that? Do you hear Bernie Sanders promoting capping the welfare payouts?

So again, I don't what you claim or what Sanders says he supports. The fact is, he doesn't support the Nordic Model at all.

 

[Andylusion]

Capitalist Greece...dont make me laugh

We are not talking about SYRIZA Greece...

Empty shelves in Greece was not because Greece was a capitalist country,
nor because it turned into a semi socialist at some point.

You gotta understand the reasons why governments fail to provide their people a good future.

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

 

[alpine]

Capitalist Greece...dont make me laugh

We are not talking about SYRIZA Greece...

Empty shelves in Greece was not because Greece was a capitalist country,
nor because it turned into a semi socialist at some point.

You gotta understand the reasons why governments fail to provide their people a good future.

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

 

[Kosh]

Capitalist Greece...dont make me laugh

We are not talking about SYRIZA Greece...

Empty shelves in Greece was not because Greece was a capitalist country,
nor because it turned into a semi socialist at some point.

You gotta understand the reasons why governments fail to provide their people a good future.

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

As Margaret Thatcher famously said, “Socialist governments ... always run out of other people’s money.” Greece was spending beyond its means by injecting cash into a public-sector system that wasn’t producing anything of real value on which it could turn a substantial profit. When this system slid into the negative, Greece borrowed on credit until its credit rating tanked and it couldn’t get loans like a regular country. So Greece tried a Hail Mary pass to Europe and the IMF, which are made up of countries borrowing money themselves on credit to manage their own debts.

Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership and control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy, and a political philosophy advocating such a system.

 

[The Rabbi]

Capitalist Greece...dont make me laugh

We are not talking about SYRIZA Greece...

Empty shelves in Greece was not because Greece was a capitalist country,
nor because it turned into a semi socialist at some point.

You gotta understand the reasons why governments fail to provide their people a good future.

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

That is wrong. In Greece the gov't has tremendous control over companies. The WSJ had an article not long ago about a start up that wanted to sell olive oil products. Among the requirements to get a license, which took years to get btw, were stool samples from the proposed board of directors. Hello?

 

[alpine]

We are not talking about SYRIZA Greece...

Empty shelves in Greece was not because Greece was a capitalist country,
nor because it turned into a semi socialist at some point.

You gotta understand the reasons why governments fail to provide their people a good future.

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

That is wrong. In Greece the gov't has tremendous control over companies. The WSJ had an article not long ago about a start up that wanted to sell olive oil products. Among the requirements to get a license, which took years to get btw, were stool samples from the proposed board of directors. Hello?

Yes, and thats because they refused to pay the "speed" tax.

If you don't know what "speed" tax is, you won't understand why Greece did go under either..............

 

[The Rabbi]

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

That is wrong. In Greece the gov't has tremendous control over companies. The WSJ had an article not long ago about a start up that wanted to sell olive oil products. Among the requirements to get a license, which took years to get btw, were stool samples from the proposed board of directors. Hello?

Yes, and thats because they refused to pay the "speed" tax.

If you don't know what "speed" tax is, you won't understand why Greece did go under either..............

I understand you don't know the first thing of what you're talking about.

 

[alpine]

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

That is wrong. In Greece the gov't has tremendous control over companies. The WSJ had an article not long ago about a start up that wanted to sell olive oil products. Among the requirements to get a license, which took years to get btw, were stool samples from the proposed board of directors. Hello?

Yes, and thats because they refused to pay the "speed" tax.

If you don't know what "speed" tax is, you won't understand why Greece did go under either..............

I understand you don't know the first thing of what you're talking about.

Nope, you dont...

You in fact have no idea...................

 

[JimBowie1958]

Obama's good buddy, Bill Ayers, loves and visits and makes speeches in Venezuela. Bill Ayers makes a fortune as a teacher at a Government University here in the USA, and he preaches that we need a Marxist revolution!
November | 2006 | Bill Ayers

World Education Forum
Caracas, Venezuela
I walked out of jail and into my first teaching position—and from that day until this I’ve thought of myself as a teacher, but I’ve also understood teaching as a project intimately connected with social justice. After all, the fundamental message of the teacher is this: you can change your life—whoever you are, wherever you’ve been, whatever you’ve done, another world is possible. As students and teachers begin to see themselves as linked to one another, as tied to history and capable of collective action, the fundamental message of teaching shifts slightly, and becomes broader, more generous: we must change ourselves as we come together to change the world. Teaching invites transformations, it urges revolutions small and large. La educacion es revolucion!

OK, so Hillary supports Venezuela style socialism, maybe, but that doesnt have shit to do with Sanders.

Sure it does. Bernie's policies are exactly the ones implemented by the current government of Venezuela.

That is not true and you are spreading lies you have heard from someone else.

What was Venezuela's top tax bracket for individuals? 34%

And Bernie Sanders is 54%

Lol, Sanders is higher and more akin to what Denmark pays, not Venezuela.

And Venezuela's economy is not crashing from democratic socialism but from the nationalization of the oil industry and due to a crash in the value of oil which is their major export, their currency has dropped by a factor of 6 in the past few years, and the economic turmoil is scaring away foreign investment. The story for the Nordic Socialist nations is entirely different as is Sanders economic plan which does not involve nationalizing anything, much less the majority of our national ewxport.

You are talking from a place you know not of, though I am sure that you will just claim that Sanders plan is even worse since the individual income tax is higher, right? And you will ignore the successful record of what the Nordic Model has while Venezuela's, nothing like Sanders plan, is crashing due to being a Marxist economy.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Last night we showed what Caracas, looks like this week:

As we wrote then these are simply hungry Venezuelans protesting that their children are dying from lack of food and medicine and that they do not have enough water or electricity. As AgainstCronyCapitalism added, this is a country with more oil than Saudi Arabia, and the government has stolen all the money and now they bottleneck peaceful protesters and threaten them with bombs (or haul them to prison and torture them). As pure desperation has set in, crime has becomes inevitable. A man accused of mugging people in the streets of Caracas was surrounded by a mob of onlookers, beaten and set on fire, who published a pixeled-out but still graphic video of the man burning as mob justice is now the supreme arbiter of who lives and who dies:

"Roberto Fuentes Bernal, 42, was reportedly caught trying to mug passersby in the Venezuelan capital, and before police arrived at the scene, the crowd took the law into their own hands." The video can be seen here. Now, in the latest shocking development, Venezuela saw a new wave of looting this week that resulted in at least two deaths, countless wounded, and millions of dollars in losses and damages. According to Panampost, on Wednesday morning, a crowd sacked the Maracay Wholesale Market in the central region of Venezuela. According to the testimonies of merchants, the endless food lines that Venezuelans have been enduring to do groceries could not be organized that day.

As time went by, desperate Venezuelans grew anxious over not being able to buy food. Then they started jumping over the gates and stormed the supermarket. "They took milk, pasta, flour, oil, and milk powder. There were 5,000 people" one witness told Venezuela outlet El Estímulo. People from across the entire state came to the supermarket because there were rumors that some products not found anywhere else would be sold there. As a result of the massive crowd, the authorities were unable to preserve the peace. "There were 250 people for each National Guard officer… lots of people and few soldiers. At least one officer was beat up because he tried to stop the crowd,” another source told El Estímulo. Other food dispensaries run by the government were also looted by the people. Far from the promised socialist paradise, as the massive group of people moved, an entrance gate collapsed under the weight of the crowd, leaving several wounded.

MORE

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Greece is a socialist country. You can retire at 50 if you have a cushy government job.

And your life savings will be wiped out if you don't.

Corruption...

Comparison of Tax Evasion Rates as percent of GDP 2012 estimate[14]
country % of GDP
Estonia 28.6
Greece 24.3
Latvia 21.6
Italy 21.6
Belgium 17.1
Germany 13.5


The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks.[20] The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying "Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros".[21] Additionally, the TJN puts the number of Greek-owned off-shore companies to over 10,000.[22]


Somebody stole the money from the piggy bank in Greece.
It has nothing do with her being a socialist or a capitalist.

SOMEBODY STOLE IT!!

Like in Venezuela....

But in Greece the government GAVE the banks the national treasury in the USA we only gave the Wall Street banks $5 trillion and the banks then paid themselves bonuses for it.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I love the way rightard dumb fucks ignore the social democracies of the west and insist on comparing their own feeding frenzy of a society to new world republics that have been destabilised by being aligned with US interests for decades.

Another far left drone that does not understand that socialism is a failure..

If what they have in Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark and Finland is a failure, then I want me some failure for this country too, dude.

It's not socialism either.

It is a type of socialism, 'democratic socialism' or 'social democracy', take your pick, but this is what Sanders is wanting to put in place..

Nordic model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway,Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5]

Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.[7]

Each of the Nordic countries has its own economic and social models, sometimes with large differences from its neighbours.[8] According to sociologist Lane Kenworthy, in the context of the Nordic model, "social democracy" refers to a set of policies for promoting economic security and opportunity within the framework of capitalism rather than a system to replace capitalism....
United States Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT), a self-described democratic socialist, has been a strong proponent of the Nordic system.

Just ask the conservatives here, but Welfare state systems are a form of socialism.

It's a con, in other words.

No, it is not a con.

Do you actually read the things people post here?

 

[The Rabbi]

Obama's good buddy, Bill Ayers, loves and visits and makes speeches in Venezuela. Bill Ayers makes a fortune as a teacher at a Government University here in the USA, and he preaches that we need a Marxist revolution!
November | 2006 | Bill Ayers

World Education Forum
Caracas, Venezuela
I walked out of jail and into my first teaching position—and from that day until this I’ve thought of myself as a teacher, but I’ve also understood teaching as a project intimately connected with social justice. After all, the fundamental message of the teacher is this: you can change your life—whoever you are, wherever you’ve been, whatever you’ve done, another world is possible. As students and teachers begin to see themselves as linked to one another, as tied to history and capable of collective action, the fundamental message of teaching shifts slightly, and becomes broader, more generous: we must change ourselves as we come together to change the world. Teaching invites transformations, it urges revolutions small and large. La educacion es revolucion!

OK, so Hillary supports Venezuela style socialism, maybe, but that doesnt have shit to do with Sanders.

Sure it does. Bernie's policies are exactly the ones implemented by the current government of Venezuela.

That is not true and you are spreading lies you have heard from someone else.

What was Venezuela's top tax bracket for individuals? 34%

And Bernie Sanders is 54%

Lol, Sanders is higher and more akin to what Denmark pays, not Venezuela.

And Venezuela's economy is not crashing from democratic socialism but from the nationalization of the oil industry and due to a crash in the value of oil which is their major export, their currency has dropped by a factor of 6 in the past few years, and the economic turmoil is scaring away foreign investment. The story for the Nordic Socialist nations is entirely different as is Sanders economic plan which does not involve nationalizing anything, much less the majority of our national ewxport.

You are talking from a place you know not of, though I am sure that you will just claim that Sanders plan is even worse since the individual income tax is higher, right? And you will ignore the successful record of what the Nordic Model has while Venezuela's, nothing like Sanders plan, is crashing due to being a Marxist economy.

That's a joke, right? Because Venezuela's problem is not falling oil revenue (although that is a problem). Their problem is a socialist command economy. Maduro is now threatening factory owners with jail if they don't produce. Why should he have to threaten them with jail for not producing?

 

[The Rabbi]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Greece is a socialist country. You can retire at 50 if you have a cushy government job.

And your life savings will be wiped out if you don't.

Corruption...

Comparison of Tax Evasion Rates as percent of GDP 2012 estimate[14]
country % of GDP
Estonia 28.6
Greece 24.3
Latvia 21.6
Italy 21.6
Belgium 17.1
Germany 13.5


The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks.[20] The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying "Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros".[21] Additionally, the TJN puts the number of Greek-owned off-shore companies to over 10,000.[22]


Somebody stole the money from the piggy bank in Greece.
It has nothing do with her being a socialist or a capitalist.

SOMEBODY STOLE IT!!

Like in Venezuela....

But in Greece the government GAVE the banks the national treasury in the USA we only gave the Wall Street banks $5 trillion and the banks then paid themselves bonuses for it.

You're talkijg about the bailout that banks have repaid with interest, resulting in a windfall for the Treasury?
Or do you mean the gov't bailing out the socialist entities Fan/Fred, where taxpayers lost a ton?

 

[JimBowie1958]

That's a joke, right? Because Venezuela's problem is not falling oil revenue (although that is a problem). Their problem is a socialist command economy.

You are ignorant. Venezuela does not have a command economy.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World Factbook

 

[JimBowie1958]

You're talkijg about the bailout that banks have repaid with interest, resulting in a windfall for the Treasury?

Repaid with interest? lololol


Quantitative easing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The US Federal Reserve held between $700 billion and $800 billion of Treasury notes on its balance sheet before the recession. In late November 2008, the Federal Reserve started buying $600 billion in mortgage-backed securities.[47] By March 2009, it held $1.75 trillion of bank debt, mortgage-backed securities, and Treasury notes; this amount reached a peak of $2.1 trillion in June 2010. Further purchases were halted as the economy started to improve, but resumed in August 2010 when the Fed decided the economy was not growing robustly. After the halt in June, holdings started falling naturally as debt matured and were projected to fall to $1.7 trillion by 2012. The Fed's revised goal became to keep holdings at $2.054 trillion. To maintain that level, the Fed bought $30 billion in two- to ten-year Treasury notes every month.[48]

In November 2010, the Fed announced a second round of quantitative easing, buying $600 billion of Treasury securities by the end of the second quarter of 2011.[49][50] The expression "QE2" became a ubiquitous nickname in 2010, used to refer to this second round of quantitative easing by US central banks.[51] Retrospectively, the round of quantitative easing preceding QE2 was called "QE1".[52][53]

A third round of quantitative easing, "QE3", was announced on 13 September 2012. In an 11–1 vote, the Federal Reserve decided to launch a new $40 billion per month, open-ended bond purchasing program of agency mortgage-backed securities. Additionally, the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) announced that it would likely maintain thefederal funds rate near zero "at least through 2015."[54][55] According to NASDAQ.com, this is effectively a stimulus program that allows the Federal Reserve to relieve $40 billion per month of commercial housing market debt risk.[56] Because of its open-ended nature, QE3 has earned the popular nickname of "QE-Infinity."[57] On 12 December 2012, the FOMC announced an increase in the amount of open-ended purchases from $40 billion to $85 billion per month.[58]

On 19 June 2013, Ben Bernanke announced a "tapering" of some of the Fed's QE policies contingent upon continued positive economic data. Specifically, he said that the Fed could scale back its bond purchases from $85 billion to $65 billion a month during the upcoming September 2013 policy meeting.[59][not in citation given] He also suggested that the bond-buying program could wrap up by mid-2014.[60] While Bernanke did not announce an interest rate hike, he suggested that if inflation followed a 2% target rate and unemployment decreased to 6.5%, the Fed would likely start raising rates. The stock markets dropped by approximately 4.3% over the three trading days following Bernanke's announcement, with the Dow Jones dropping 659 points between 19 and 24 June, closing at 14,660 at the end of the day on 24 June.[61] On 18 September 2013, the Fed decided to hold off on scaling back its bond-buying program,[62] and later began tapering purchases the next year—February 2014.[63] Purchases were halted on 29 October 2014[64] after accumulating $4.5 trillion in assets.

These securities are worthless as you cannot sell them, and the Fed gave them face value for them all. Hence it was a gift of over $4.5 TRILLION to which one can add the measely $600+ billion that they did pay back, while the QE will never be 'repaid' as those banks are not stupid enough to buy back worthless MBS, aCDOs.

 

[The Rabbi]

That's a joke, right? Because Venezuela's problem is not falling oil revenue (although that is a problem). Their problem is a socialist command economy.

You are ignorant. Venezuela does not have a command economy.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World Factbook

Dumbshit. Wikipedia--last refuge of the ignorant.
Venezuela's Maduro threatens to jail factory owners

 

[The Rabbi]

You're talkijg about the bailout that banks have repaid with interest, resulting in a windfall for the Treasury?

Repaid with interest? lololol


Quantitative easing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The US Federal Reserve held between $700 billion and $800 billion of Treasury notes on its balance sheet before the recession. In late November 2008, the Federal Reserve started buying $600 billion in mortgage-backed securities.[47] By March 2009, it held $1.75 trillion of bank debt, mortgage-backed securities, and Treasury notes; this amount reached a peak of $2.1 trillion in June 2010. Further purchases were halted as the economy started to improve, but resumed in August 2010 when the Fed decided the economy was not growing robustly. After the halt in June, holdings started falling naturally as debt matured and were projected to fall to $1.7 trillion by 2012. The Fed's revised goal became to keep holdings at $2.054 trillion. To maintain that level, the Fed bought $30 billion in two- to ten-year Treasury notes every month.[48]

In November 2010, the Fed announced a second round of quantitative easing, buying $600 billion of Treasury securities by the end of the second quarter of 2011.[49][50] The expression "QE2" became a ubiquitous nickname in 2010, used to refer to this second round of quantitative easing by US central banks.[51] Retrospectively, the round of quantitative easing preceding QE2 was called "QE1".[52][53]

A third round of quantitative easing, "QE3", was announced on 13 September 2012. In an 11–1 vote, the Federal Reserve decided to launch a new $40 billion per month, open-ended bond purchasing program of agency mortgage-backed securities. Additionally, the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) announced that it would likely maintain thefederal funds rate near zero "at least through 2015."[54][55] According to NASDAQ.com, this is effectively a stimulus program that allows the Federal Reserve to relieve $40 billion per month of commercial housing market debt risk.[56] Because of its open-ended nature, QE3 has earned the popular nickname of "QE-Infinity."[57] On 12 December 2012, the FOMC announced an increase in the amount of open-ended purchases from $40 billion to $85 billion per month.[58]

On 19 June 2013, Ben Bernanke announced a "tapering" of some of the Fed's QE policies contingent upon continued positive economic data. Specifically, he said that the Fed could scale back its bond purchases from $85 billion to $65 billion a month during the upcoming September 2013 policy meeting.[59][not in citation given] He also suggested that the bond-buying program could wrap up by mid-2014.[60] While Bernanke did not announce an interest rate hike, he suggested that if inflation followed a 2% target rate and unemployment decreased to 6.5%, the Fed would likely start raising rates. The stock markets dropped by approximately 4.3% over the three trading days following Bernanke's announcement, with the Dow Jones dropping 659 points between 19 and 24 June, closing at 14,660 at the end of the day on 24 June.[61] On 18 September 2013, the Fed decided to hold off on scaling back its bond-buying program,[62] and later began tapering purchases the next year—February 2014.[63] Purchases were halted on 29 October 2014[64] after accumulating $4.5 trillion in assets.

These securities are worthless as you cannot sell them, and the Fed gave them face value for them all. Hence it was a gift of over $4.5 TRILLION to which one can add the measely $600+ billion that they did pay back, while the QE will never be 'repaid' as those banks are not stupid enough to buy back worthless MBS, aCDOs.

Idiot. You are a completely clueless uninformed moron.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/20/b...f-bailouts-of-automakers-and-wall-street.html

 

[JimBowie1958]

That's a joke, right? Because Venezuela's problem is not falling oil revenue (although that is a problem). Their problem is a socialist command economy.

You are ignorant. Venezuela does not have a command economy.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World Factbook

Dumbshit. Wikipedia--last refuge of the ignorant.
Venezuela's Maduro threatens to jail factory owners

I also listed the CIA World book, shit4brains, because i knew you would ad hominem Wikipedia because you dont want to accept Truth about anything you disagree with, you ignorant wretch.

And making threats on an industry does not equate to the economy being a command economy, dumbass.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You're talkijg about the bailout that banks have repaid with interest, resulting in a windfall for the Treasury?

Repaid with interest? lololol


Quantitative easing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The US Federal Reserve held between $700 billion and $800 billion of Treasury notes on its balance sheet before the recession. In late November 2008, the Federal Reserve started buying $600 billion in mortgage-backed securities.[47] By March 2009, it held $1.75 trillion of bank debt, mortgage-backed securities, and Treasury notes; this amount reached a peak of $2.1 trillion in June 2010. Further purchases were halted as the economy started to improve, but resumed in August 2010 when the Fed decided the economy was not growing robustly. After the halt in June, holdings started falling naturally as debt matured and were projected to fall to $1.7 trillion by 2012. The Fed's revised goal became to keep holdings at $2.054 trillion. To maintain that level, the Fed bought $30 billion in two- to ten-year Treasury notes every month.[48]

In November 2010, the Fed announced a second round of quantitative easing, buying $600 billion of Treasury securities by the end of the second quarter of 2011.[49][50] The expression "QE2" became a ubiquitous nickname in 2010, used to refer to this second round of quantitative easing by US central banks.[51] Retrospectively, the round of quantitative easing preceding QE2 was called "QE1".[52][53]

A third round of quantitative easing, "QE3", was announced on 13 September 2012. In an 11–1 vote, the Federal Reserve decided to launch a new $40 billion per month, open-ended bond purchasing program of agency mortgage-backed securities. Additionally, the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) announced that it would likely maintain thefederal funds rate near zero "at least through 2015."[54][55] According to NASDAQ.com, this is effectively a stimulus program that allows the Federal Reserve to relieve $40 billion per month of commercial housing market debt risk.[56] Because of its open-ended nature, QE3 has earned the popular nickname of "QE-Infinity."[57] On 12 December 2012, the FOMC announced an increase in the amount of open-ended purchases from $40 billion to $85 billion per month.[58]

On 19 June 2013, Ben Bernanke announced a "tapering" of some of the Fed's QE policies contingent upon continued positive economic data. Specifically, he said that the Fed could scale back its bond purchases from $85 billion to $65 billion a month during the upcoming September 2013 policy meeting.[59][not in citation given] He also suggested that the bond-buying program could wrap up by mid-2014.[60] While Bernanke did not announce an interest rate hike, he suggested that if inflation followed a 2% target rate and unemployment decreased to 6.5%, the Fed would likely start raising rates. The stock markets dropped by approximately 4.3% over the three trading days following Bernanke's announcement, with the Dow Jones dropping 659 points between 19 and 24 June, closing at 14,660 at the end of the day on 24 June.[61] On 18 September 2013, the Fed decided to hold off on scaling back its bond-buying program,[62] and later began tapering purchases the next year—February 2014.[63] Purchases were halted on 29 October 2014[64] after accumulating $4.5 trillion in assets.

These securities are worthless as you cannot sell them, and the Fed gave them face value for them all. Hence it was a gift of over $4.5 TRILLION to which one can add the measely $600+ billion that they did pay back, while the QE will never be 'repaid' as those banks are not stupid enough to buy back worthless MBS, aCDOs.

Idiot. You are a completely clueless uninformed moron.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/20/b...f-bailouts-of-automakers-and-wall-street.html

Roflmao, that article you mention does not discuss Quantitative Easing, you stupid ass, it is talking about TARP.

 

[Andylusion]

Capitalist Greece...dont make me laugh

We are not talking about SYRIZA Greece...

Empty shelves in Greece was not because Greece was a capitalist country,
nor because it turned into a semi socialist at some point.

You gotta understand the reasons why governments fail to provide their people a good future.

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

And the problem didn't arise from private sector jobs and industry did it? It came from the pension system, and Greek government debt.

In fact, even after the first big crash, and austerity was put in place, private sector growth and employment was on the rise.

This latest crash wasn't from the Capitalist private sector, but rather the government once again screwing over the country.

And perhaps you could even say the private sector isn't as productive as it should be. Ok, I would agree with that. But it wasn't the private sector that imposed taxes and regulations on itself. It wasn't the private sector the imposed a minimum wage on itself. It was the private sector that imposed employment laws, and pension costs, and health care taxes on itself.

All of that is socialism. Social control over the private sector. That's why for 8 years, while the minimum wage was indexed to inflation and increasing every year, the employment rates were falling. The moment they cut the minimum wage, employment went up.

The more socialized they get, the worse off they are. The less socialized they are, the better off they get.