Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Grumblenuts]

We should proudly have that freedom on display.

Rest assured. We do.

 

[Hollie]

Getting a math problem wrong usually doesn't have consequences that involve eternal damnation or, as the more excitable religious people threaten: "lakes of fire''.

It's a mistake to suggest that ''They are making it through life just fine anyway''. I don't think that angry, religious fundamentalist types realize the damage they do to children when those children are subjected to the kind of indoctrination that instills irrational fear and self-loathing, that they are born base and evil.

Sealybobo specifically mentioned the LDS Church saying that the Catholic Church had gone off track, and that is what I was addressing. Your bring up the religious upbringing of angry, fundamentalist types. Now, keep in mind, many will think this is where I am wrong, but it seems to me many of today's atheists are the result of such an upbringing. Others seem to stem from the insistence (primarily from Evangelicals) that everything in the Bible be taken literally as transcribed in modern day English. This includes Young Earth, Planet Wide Flood, etc. People want truth, and when truth shows a much older planet and no planet-wide flood, some people feel their only choice is to choose either Bible or Science.

I feel badly that they do not consider that modern teachers may have been (perhaps unknowingly) incorrectly presenting Biblical teachings. They should use science to help redirect them.

I’m not clear why you think children from non-religious homes would be threatened from childhood with the types of religious invocations used in some religious homes. It seems that some religious people presume “higher morals” come from a religious background but I’ve never seen any indication of that. Religious people will often claim to embrace "higher" ethics, so my expectations are derived from religious people expressing what their religious beliefs have afforded them. They are free to express themselves in any way they want, but I am also free to point out the betrayal of the very tenets many religious people press under the belief doing so will make them better people. In a word, it's hypocrisy.

 

[Meriweather]

I’m not clear why you think children from non-religious homes would be threatened from childhood with the types of religious invocations used in some religious homes.

I don't know what I said to cause you think I said or meant anything close to this.

 

[Meriweather]

It seems that some religious people presume “higher morals” come from a religious background but I’ve never seen any indication of that.

Me either.

 

[Meriweather]

Rest

I seldom, if ever, follow links, especially videos. If you want to summarize and discuss something you have my attention, otherwise, I pass.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Congress had made no law.

Fine admission. That would be unconstitutional.

People were simply praying.

Sure, sure,.. and the religious never lie:

Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962), was a landmark United States Supreme Court case in which the Court ruled that it is unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and encourage its recitation in public schools.

The Supreme Court decision in Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), invalidated the reading of verses, without comment, from the Bible and the Lord’s Prayer in public school settings. These practices had been challenged by the Schempps, Unitarians from Pennsylvania.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Rest

I seldom, if ever, follow links, especially videos. If you want to summarize and discuss something you have my attention, otherwise, I pass.

Reagan says in the ad:

Hi, I'm Ron Reagan, an unabashed atheist, and I'm alarmed by the intrusion of religion into our secular government. That's why I'm asking you to support the Freedom From Religion Foundation, the nation's largest and most effective association of atheists and agnostics, working to keep state and church separate, just like our Founding Fathers intended. Please support the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Ron Reagan, lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell.

Freedom, proudly on display.

 

[Hollie]

Examples?

You already gave several good ones.

But if you want more, let's start with a Supreme Court Decision of no prayer in school. Congress had made no law. People were simply praying. In the same way the only thing the Supreme Court needed to do was to assure all parents, students, and teachers that participation in prayer was never required, either.

Go out into the public square: Instead of no sign of religion, we should have signs from all religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity because in this country we have freedom of religion. We should proudly have that freedom on display.

I think some clarification is needed here. “People were simply praying” is an effort not to address the the decades long concerted efforts of extremist Christians to force their religious views into the public schools. The history of attempts by Christian ministries to force Christian creationism into the schools reads like a car chase in a Hollywood action thriller with vehicles careening off the guide rail, tires screeching, fenders being shredded and cars going over a cliff. The agenda of promoting Christianity in public schools has been repeatedly relabeled and rebranded, morphing from "Biblical Creationism" to "Scientific Creationism," to the latest label of "Intelligent Design." Obviously, the courts have dismissed this nonsense as contrary to the US Constitution.

Just my opinion but I would prefer that we not have signs, placards, billboards, yelling / screeching proponents from all religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity in the public square. Religious folks tend not to play nice with each other and gaggles of these folks trying to oneupsmanship each other with each other’s gods tends to infringe on my constitutional rights.

 

[Meriweather]

Sure, sure,.. and the religious never lie:

My point is that all prayer should be allowed in school in this manner:

Instructor: Does anyone wish to lead the class in a prayer this morning?

Student 1: (Buddhist Meditation); Student 2: (Jewish prayer); Student 3: (Muslim prayer); etc. etc.

Or, no student volunteers and classroom life proceeds. The point is, everyone grows up with the knowledge here in American we are always free to practice our religion.

 

[Meriweather]

Freedom, proudly on display.

No one is dragging him into their church. He is free.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Freedom, proudly on display.

No one is dragging him into their church. He is free.

Yep. Free from "public"

school in this manner:

Instructor: Does anyone wish to lead the class in a prayer this morning?

Student 1: (Buddhist Meditation); Student 2: (Jewish prayer); Student 3: (Muslim prayer); etc. etc.

public school

noun
(in the U.S.) a school that is maintained at public expense for the education of the children of a community or district and that constitutes a part of a system of free public education commonly including primary and secondary schools.

State schools, called public schools in North America and many other countries,[note 1] are generally primary or secondary schools mandated for or offered to all children without charge, funded in whole or in part by taxation.

Separation of what now?

 

[Meriweather]

Just my opinion but I would prefer that we not have signs, placards, billboards, yelling / screeching proponents from all religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity in the public square. Religious folks tend not to play nice with each other and gaggles of these folks trying to oneupsmanship each other with each other’s gods tends to infringe on my constitutional rights.

Actually, I have been involved in many instances where people of different denominations play very nice together--and have a great time. If we were all together in the public square, I think that part would come to the forefront.

I do hear what you are saying. Upon moving to a new town, I met someone who would quickly become one of my best friends. We immediately hit it off at the bus stop where we were seeing our children off to school. About the third day she approached me hesitantly and said, "I have to tell you something. I think you should know something about me." I was expecting something like, "I am an ex-con." Instead she said, "I am a Mormon."

I said, "That's nice, I'm Catholic," and looked back at her expectantly, waiting for her to go on. It turned out the reason she was so nervous is that all too often when someone of another Christian denomination learned she was Mormon, they wanted nothing more to do with her. Their loss, but I was shocked and astonished as that was not how I was taught to behave.

Even so, this is a free country, and we have freedom of religion, and that should be practiced openly.

As for Creationism in science...silly. And, it is never going to happen, so I am not that worried about it. I've helped a few students over that hurdle and it is no big deal.

 

[Meriweather]

Yep. Free from "public"

Even in public. Our church sometimes has processions which occur in public places. No one is forced to join, or even look on if they don't care to.

 

[Meriweather]

Separation of what now?

What are you talking about? Teaching about religion or allowing students and their coach to pray before a game does not establish a religion.

 

[Hollie]

Just my opinion but I would prefer that we not have signs, placards, billboards, yelling / screeching proponents from all religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity in the public square. Religious folks tend not to play nice with each other and gaggles of these folks trying to oneupsmanship each other with each other’s gods tends to infringe on my constitutional rights.

Actually, I have been involved in many instances where people of different denominations play very nice together--and have a great time. If we were all together in the public square, I think that part would come to the forefront.

I do hear what you are saying. Upon moving to a new town, I met someone who would quickly become one of my best friends. We immediately hit it off at the bus stop where we were seeing our children off to school. About the third day she approached me hesitantly and said, "I have to tell you something. I think you should know something about me." I was expecting something like, "I am an ex-con." Instead she said, "I am a Mormon."

I said, "That's nice, I'm Catholic," and looked back at her expectantly, waiting for her to go on. It turned out the reason she was so nervous is that all too often when someone of another Christian denomination learned she was Mormon, they wanted nothing more to do with her. Their loss, but I was shocked and astonished as that was not how I was taught to behave.

Even so, this is a free country, and we have freedom of religion, and that should be practiced openly.

As for Creationism in science...silly. And, it is never going to happen, so I am not that worried about it. I've helped a few students over that hurdle and it is no big deal.

Christian fundamentalists and their attempts to force religion into schools actually is a big deal. Here’s a sampling of court cases going back to 1968.

Federal courts, the US Supreme Court are a kinda’ big deal.

Ten Major Court Cases about Evolution and Creationism | National Center for Science Education

1. In 1968, in Epperson v. Arkansas, the United States Supreme Court invalidated an Arkansas statute that prohibited the teaching of evolution. The Court held the statute unconstitutional on the grounds that the First Amendment to the U.S.

ncse.ngo

 

[Meriweather]

Christian fundamentalists and their attempts to force religion into schools actually is a big deal. Here’s a sampling of court cases going back to 1968.

Federal courts, the US Supreme Court are a kinda’ big deal.

Teaching evolution does not involve religion. The rulings are correct. As I already said, science textbooks are not going to change.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Yep. Free from "public"

Even in public. Our church sometimes has processions which occur in public places. No one is forced to join, or even look on if they don't care to.

Public schools. Forget to wear your reading glasses?

Separation of what now?

What are you talking about? Teaching about religion or allowing students and their coach to pray before a game does not establish a religion.

Establish?
Again, "Separation of what now?"
Wanna argue now with Jefferson's well "established" stated intent now? Really? Please.. Try coming back with something substantial at least this time..

 

[Grumblenuts]

"Tendrils" Define?

Still waiting..

 

[Meriweather]

ry coming back with something substantial at least this time..

We seem to be on two different wave lengths. I am saying leave religion alone. All faiths, all denominations can be anywhere at any time. That does not require anyone to notice, let alone participate. Having religion on display in no way invalidates separate of Church and State.

 

[Meriweather]

Still waiting..

I have given examples. One was coaches and players praying before a game. This does not establish a religion. No prayer in the classroom. Prayer in the classroom does not establish a religion. Information being given on a religion. Information on any religion does not establish that religion as a State religion.