Orthodox Christianity, False Teachers, Faith, and Reason

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Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

 

[Chuckt]

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

If you want to claim being a Christian or if you want to try to use our scriptures for yourself then I can tell you about your tresspasses and treat you as a heathen man and a publican.

Matthew 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Gaining your respect is an indictment of guilt not a blessing, Pacer.

Yes, guilty of respecting an individual who can present his views in an intelligent, well reasoned, eloquent, non-confrontational manner.

Your reputation as a one who is full of all subtilty and mischief, an enemy of all that is righteousness and never ceasing to pervert the right ways of the Lord as all children of the devil are known for - precedes you, Pacer. Therein let me repeat this for you:

Gaining your respect is an indictment of guilt not a blessing.

NOTE* Although you boast that you are a Jew, Pacer, the Lord has warned not every Jew is a Jew but some are of the synagogue of Satan.

On the matter of loving thy neighbor.......shall you dare to disannul the judgments of the God of Israel now and accuse him of not being Love? God hated Esau.

It is written:

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. - Malachi 1: 3

 

[pacer]

If you want to claim being a Christian or if you want to try to use our scriptures for yourself then I can tell you about your tresspasses and treat you as a heathen man and a publican.

You do not "own" scripture and you are in no position to tell me about my transgressions. You are no better than I.

 

[pacer]

Gaining your respect is an indictment of guilt not a blessing.

Guilty of respecting someone deserving of respect.

 

[Chuckt]

If you want to claim being a Christian or if you want to try to use our scriptures for yourself then I can tell you about your tresspasses and treat you as a heathen man and a publican.

You do not "own" scripture and you are in no position to tell me about my transgressions. You are no better than I.

I'm not any better than you but you would have to tell me why I can't tell you about your transgressions.

I'm a child of the king and I've been at this a lot longer than you. I am mindful that this isn't my message board but I know what I can do and what I can't do.

 

[Care4all]

Luke 9
46 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.”49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”


Samaritan Opposition

51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them[b]?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.
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wonder what Jesus was trying to teach His disciples above? are you following Jesus's lesson?

John 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

you didn't answer my question....what was Christ's lesson to us in the passages I listed? Can you answer that...?


ohhhh dear chuck, I feel sorry for you, truly do, and I will pray for you to spiritually hear God's words....Amen!

 

[pacer]

I'm not any better than you but you would have to tell me why I can't tell you about your transgressions.

I'm a child of the king and I've been at this a lot longer than you. I am mindful that this isn't my message board but I know what I can do and what I can't do.

You can do whatever you want on this board but you are in no position to be ministering to anyone about their transgressions.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

If you want to claim being a Christian or if you want to try to use our scriptures for yourself then I can tell you about your tresspasses and treat you as a heathen man and a publican.

Matthew 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

He is a Jew but he is not a child of Abraham, Chuck. He is one like Jesus rebuked and later Paul also (See Acts 13 ) but so that the others may understand that Jesus didn't play around with these ones but rather called them serpents, a brood of vipers, children of the devil, the children of them that killed the prophets,whited sepulchres full of dead mens bones........ let me put up the Word of God on men such as these:

It is written:

Woe unto you scribes, pharisees, hypocrites! For ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so outwardly appear righteous before men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you scribes, and Pharisees, hypocrites!

Because you build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous. And say, if we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnations of hell? - words of Jesus Christ

- Matthew 23: 27 - 33

And again it is written:

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men and scribes and some of them ye shall kill and crucify, and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel and the blood of Zacharias son of Brachias, whom you slew between the temple and the altar. - words of Jesus Christ

- Matthew 23: 34 - 35

And finally it is written!

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD. - Jesus Christ

- Matthew 23: 37,38,39

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Luke 9
46 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.”49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”


Samaritan Opposition

51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them[b]?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.
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wonder what Jesus was trying to teach His disciples above? are you following Jesus's lesson?

John 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

you didn't answer my question....what was Christ's lesson to us in the passages I listed? Can you answer that...?


ohhhh dear chuck, I feel sorry for you, truly do, and I will pray for you to spiritually hear God's words....Amen!

I praise God today for answering my request to him that he judge between you and I as to who was speaking the truth. I am referring to the thread in which you claimed you were careless and meant no harm by your attack on the Gospel of Jesus Christ and also on your having purposely attacked me. I did discern then you were not being honest.

The Holy Spirit revealed to me you were a mocker. By your very own words you have proven I did hear from Him correctly. On this thread you have revealed yourself here to be an enemy of Jesus Christ. Surely the Lord exposes the hearts of men by their very own mouths. ( hands in this instance ) I praise His Holy name today. To God be the Glory! - Karen

 

[Foxfyre]

The terms of friendship is that relationships are reciprocol or complimentary.

God commanded, “love thy neighbor as thyself”. He did not put any stipulations on it. It would be a selfish God who would command we love only those who reciprocate their love. I interpret the commandment to mean love thy fellow man in the sense we value and appreciate our fellow beings.

I would appreciate your input, FoxFire. Count me in as one who very much enjoys reading your thoughts on these subjects.

Thanks Pacer. I think if we don't take this all so seriously, it can be a fruitful discussion and exercise. I sure don't claim to be the last word on anything and I welcome all points of view. And I agree that love is not to be extended to only those who love us. Even as he suffered and died on the Cross, our Lord prayed for and loved and forgave those who were crucifying him. That to me is the true message of the Gospel. God loves us no matter how imperfect we are and we love and obey him when we do the same. So welcome aboard.

Also as much as the Bible warns us against false teachers, false witnesses, and false prophets, it also assures us that everybody doesn't have to believe alike in order to acceptable--those who are not against us are with us.

I would suggest to a couple of folks who do not seem to be here to reason together and who seem to only want to preach to and judge everybody else, there are other threads more appropriate for that.

But for those who are interested in this rather loose topic and wish to discuss it, I have another question:

Who gets to determine who are the false teachers, the false witnesses, and/or the false prophets? Where do those doing the determining get their authority?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

The terms of friendship is that relationships are reciprocol or complimentary.

God commanded, “love thy neighbor as thyself”. He did not put any stipulations on it. It would be a selfish God who would command we love only those who reciprocate their love. I interpret the commandment to mean love thy fellow man in the sense we value and appreciate our fellow beings.

I would appreciate your input, FoxFire. Count me in as one who very much enjoys reading your thoughts on these subjects.

Jesus called people such as yourself serpents, brood of vipers, white washed tombs, children of the men who murdered the prophets.. will you now accuse Jesus Christ in order to justify yourself?

I repeat, Pacer, will you now accuse Jesus Christ in order to justify yourself?

It is written:

Wherefore, ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell? <----------Jesus own words.....

- Matthew 23: 31,32,33

And again it is written:

And I hated Esau and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the widerness. - Malachi 1:3

Will you disannul the judgments of God? Will you accuse, God Almighty of not being Love ( 1 John 4:8 ), in order to justfiy yourself, Pacer?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I see that no one could answer or dispute the Written Word of God and therein they cannot accuse my brother in Christ, Chuck, of not walking in the Love of Jesus Christ.

He has proven today by his willingness to take on the false prophets / false teachers that he truly does love his neighbor as he loves himself and that he most definitely loves God with all of his heart, with all his mind, his strength, all that is within him........yes, we suffer persecution for the gospels sake but as the Apostle Paul said, these are momentary afflictions... Amen. I know the Lord is well pleased with my brother today. Well done, Chuck.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Luke 9
46 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, &#8220;Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.&#8221;49 &#8220;Master,&#8221; said John, &#8220;we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.&#8221;
50 &#8220;Do not stop him,&#8221; Jesus said, &#8220;for whoever is not against you is for you.&#8221;


Samaritan Opposition

51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, &#8220;Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them[b]?&#8221; 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.
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wonder what Jesus was trying to teach His disciples above? are you following Jesus's lesson?

Luke 9, I interpret to mean we are all God's children; all equal in God's eyes. No one is greater than the next.

The Samaritan Opposition is an excellent illustration of loving thy neighbor, loving thy fellow man.

Your intrepretation is flawed. We are not all God's children, Pacer, and as you earlier denied the existance of God one must confess that James had a point in stating that a double minded man is unstable in all of his ways! ( James 1: 8 )

I'll stay to the point however and prove you have misinterpreted God's Word with this:

It is written:

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me for I proceedeth forth and come from God, neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because you cannot hear my word.

You are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth because there is not truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, you believe me not.

Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words, you therefore hear them not because you are not of God. - John 8: 42 - 47

And again it is written:

Then answereth the Jews, and said unto him ( Jesus ) Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan and hast a devil? ( because the Jews despised the Samaritans )

Jesus answered, I have not a devil, but I honour my Father, and you do dishonor me. and I seek not mine own glory, there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead and the prophets and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying he shall never taste death.

Art thou greater than our father Abraham which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Jesus answered, If I honor myself, then my honor is nothing, it is my Father that honoreth me of whom you say, that he is your God. Yet you have not known him, but I know him and if I should say, I know him not, I would be a liar like you but I know him and keep his sayings.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and has thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8: 48- 58

 

[Foxfyre]

Luke 9
46 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.”49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”


Samaritan Opposition

51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them[b]?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.
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wonder what Jesus was trying to teach His disciples above? are you following Jesus's lesson?

You have a good heart and I sense you are truly a child of Christ, Care, and while you and I are pretty far apart in our politics and we have fussed about a Biblical interpretation here and there, you do not turn with venom and hatred against those who disagree with you.

And with that, I think you live the scriptures you quoted here. That in my view is evidence of your faithfulness to be a true witness, a true teacher, a true prophet of the Lord.

I wonder how many people have refused or turned away from accepting Jesus the Christ because of the hateful or unpleasant way he was introduced to them? I rather think telling folks they are unacceptable or vipers or are headed straight to hell is not the best way to gain their interest.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Luke 9
46 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.”49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”


Samaritan Opposition

51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them[b]?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.
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wonder what Jesus was trying to teach His disciples above? are you following Jesus's lesson?[/quote

]Luke 9, I interpret to mean we are all God's children..

Wrong again.

It is written:

Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth , because there was no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own. For he is a liar and the father of it. - John 8: 44

And again it is written:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent his Son not into the world to condemn it but that the world through him might be be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. - John 3: 16 - 20

And again it is written:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3: 36

And finally it is written:

But as many as received him, so them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of the blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1: 12, 13

 

[pacer]

I wonder how many people have refused or turned away from accepting Jesus the Christ because of the hateful or unpleasant way he was introduced to them? I rather think telling folks they are unacceptable or vipers or are headed straight to hell is not the best way to gain their interest.

So true.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm not any better than you but you would have to tell me why I can't tell you about your transgressions.

I'm a child of the king and I've been at this a lot longer than you. I am mindful that this isn't my message board but I know what I can do and what I can't do.

You can do whatever you want on this board but you are in no position to be ministering to anyone about their transgressions.

But I ask again, where do those who accuse you (and me and others) of being false teachers, false prophets, false witnesses get their authority to do so? I have asked several times now in various ways, and nobody seems to be willing to address that.

But if we are into a battle of scriptures here, there is this, presumably in the Savior's own words, that contradicts both Chuckt and Jeremiah in how they go about exercising their judgment of others:

Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV)
43 &#8220;You have heard that it was said, &#8216;Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.&#8217; 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

And you have given witness to this by your own example, Pacer, and therefore I cannot fault you as a false teacher, false witness, or false prophet.

If I am to be 100% honest though, there is a component of this wisdom saying from Proverbs 25:21,22 that I sometimes have to appreciate :

If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
If he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head,
and the Lord will reward you.​

 

[The Irish Ram]

Having had, in recent weeks, some interesting, mostly cordial but also a few contentious exchanges over matters of faith:

I have to believe that those who are convinced that others of us are false teachers, false witnesses, false prophets are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe those who are convinced that others of us are headed straight for hell are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe that those who are convinced that some of the rest of us are not 'saved' are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe the fundamentalists and Bible literalists who are convinced that other interpretations are error, heresy, and/or evil are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe the agnostics and non-religious who enjoy joining in religious discussions are sincere in their interest.

And I have to believe the Atheist, non-religionist, non-believer who come to religious threads are also speaking from conviction, at least conviction they want validated.

So. . . .

So are those who cannot put their intellect, reason, and logic aside in matters of belief, conscience, faith, and their understanding of the Scriptures all to be considered infidels? Delusional? Heretics? False prophets? False teachers? False witnesses?

Is there no room for differences of opinion? Different interpretations? Different understandings? To believe something that doesn't jive with our childhood teachings? Must we all believe exactly the same in order to be orthodox or the real deal or to love or worship the one true God?

I am of the school that faith, from whatever tradition, is blessed and used by God. And I also believe our intelligence, our ability to study and understand, to research, to embrace deeper truths, to reason and apply logical conclusions to evidence are also gifts of God that can bless us and will be used for his purposes. We do not have to put logic, common sense, and the evidence before us on the back burner in order to be children of God.

It is that last concept that I would like to discuss - cordially and without rancor please - in this thread.

In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "Come let us reason together."

But fox, what you ask for works only if one portion of those you described puts their beliefs on the back burner to accommodate others' opinions. Our belief includes not doing that. Christians aren't called to compromise their positions so as to consider the beliefs of others, or even to tell you, "To each his own". For us, in this area, it is the opposite. We believe your life depends on Christ.

When John the Baptist was in the dungeon screaming at the top of his lungs for the King to leave his brother's wife alone, it CERTAINLY wasn't for John's benefit. His concern was for the man that was about to cut John's head off. It is that important to us.

I could say to you, faith, in any form is all good. Or that as long as you believe in something that's all that matters, and if it works for you, God will honor it. The school that taught you that did you a grave disservice. The Biblical God never, never included faith in idol worship, or any other God before Him as acceptable, no matter how strong your faith in the idol is. According to you, those who believe that the sun is God, will be blessed by the Biblical God of Abraham for their trust in sunshine. (if that's the God you are referring to as the one who will accept any form of faith) The opposite is true. He will leave your fate to the sun.

Christians are followers of Christ, We are called to inform the world of His faith in us. Not the other way around. On any other subject I would welcome any knowledge you have to offer. When it comes to your salvation however, I can't be compelled to consider any other alternative except that which places your eternal soul safely in the hands of our Father. You're my sister. I'm rigid in that regard.

And pace, "Love your neighbor, as you love yourself", means to "love you neighbor as you love yourself" .

 

[pacer]

But I ask again, where do those who accuse you (and me and others) of being false teachers, false prophets, false witnesses get their authority to do so? I have asked several times now in various ways, and nobody seems to be willing to address that.

Without a following, there would be no need for a teacher. Therefore, I believe it is the following which determines the authority and can take it away. As for determining who the false teachers/false prophets may be, I believe it is an individual determination. I would be more interested in reading your views on this subject.