Our Kennedy.

"By 1962, Kennedy's war had far surpassed the French war at its peak in helicopters and aerial fire power. As for personnel, France had 20,000 nationals fighting in all of Indochina in 1949 (US force levels reached 16,700 under JFK), increasing to 57,000 at the peak.23

Kennedy's aggression was no secret. In March 1962, US officials announced publicly that US pilots were engaged in combat missions (bombing and strafing). By October, after three US planes were shot down in two days, a front-page story in the New York Times reported that "in 30 percent of all the combat missions flown in Vietnamese Air Force planes, Americans are at the controls," though "national insignia have been erased from many aircraft, both American and Vietnamese, ...to avoid the thorny international problems involved." The press reported further that US Army fliers and gunners were taking the military initiative against southern guerrillas, using HU-1A helicopters, which had more firepower than any World War II fighter plane, as an offensive weapon. Armed helicopters were regularly supporting ARVN operations. US operations in 1962 in the Delta region in the southern sector of South Vietnam were reported by journalist Robert Shaplen, among others.24

The character of Kennedy's war was also no secret. In a 1963 book, journalist Richard Tregaskis reported his interviews with US helicopter pilots who described how "wild men" of the helicopter units would shoot civilians for sport in "solid VC areas." Describing visits to hamlets that had been hit by napalm and heavy bombs in US air strikes, Malcolm Browne, AP correspondent from 1961, observed that "there is no question that the results are revolting. Unfortunately, the Viet Cong builds bunkers so skillfully it is rarely touched by aerial bombs or napalm, except in cases of direct hits. But huts are flattened, and civilian loss of life is generally high. In some, the charred bodies of children and babies have made pathetic piles in the middle of the remains of market places."25"

Chomsky "Rethinking Camelot"

Does any of that sound like Kennedy was deescalating the war? It's obvious that the Kennedy Administration was originator of the wide spread use of defoliants and napalm and that under Kennedy the US forces in Vietnam were no longer the small group of "advisers" that Eisenhower sent but an active participant in the fighting of the war. Kennedy's "advisers" were flying the planes and helicopters that were engaging the Viet Minh. THAT is the reality of what Kennedy was doing in Vietnam prior to his death. What you (and Time) would like the world to believe is a myth constructed to give Kennedy's legacy a "make over".
 
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"By 1962, Kennedy's war had far surpassed the French war at its peak in helicopters and aerial fire power. As for personnel, France had 20,000 nationals fighting in all of Indochina in 1949 (US force levels reached 16,700 under JFK), increasing to 57,000 at the peak.23

Kennedy's aggression was no secret. In March 1962, US officials announced publicly that US pilots were engaged in combat missions (bombing and strafing). By October, after three US planes were shot down in two days, a front-page story in the New York Times reported that "in 30 percent of all the combat missions flown in Vietnamese Air Force planes, Americans are at the controls," though "national insignia have been erased from many aircraft, both American and Vietnamese, ...to avoid the thorny international problems involved." The press reported further that US Army fliers and gunners were taking the military initiative against southern guerrillas, using HU-1A helicopters, which had more firepower than any World War II fighter plane, as an offensive weapon. Armed helicopters were regularly supporting ARVN operations. US operations in 1962 in the Delta region in the southern sector of South Vietnam were reported by journalist Robert Shaplen, among others.24

The character of Kennedy's war was also no secret. In a 1963 book, journalist Richard Tregaskis reported his interviews with US helicopter pilots who described how "wild men" of the helicopter units would shoot civilians for sport in "solid VC areas." Describing visits to hamlets that had been hit by napalm and heavy bombs in US air strikes, Malcolm Browne, AP correspondent from 1961, observed that "there is no question that the results are revolting. Unfortunately, the Viet Cong builds bunkers so skillfully it is rarely touched by aerial bombs or napalm, except in cases of direct hits. But huts are flattened, and civilian loss of life is generally high. In some, the charred bodies of children and babies have made pathetic piles in the middle of the remains of market places."25"

Chomsky "Rethinking Camelot"

Does any of that sound like Kennedy was deescalating the war? It's obvious that the Kennedy Administration was originator of the wide spread use of defoliants and napalm and that under Kennedy the US forces in Vietnam were no longer the small group of "advisers" that Eisenhower sent but an active participant in the fighting of the war. Kennedy's "advisers" were flying the planes and helicopters that were engaging the Viet Minh. THAT is the reality of what Kennedy was doing in Vietnam prior to his death. What you (and Time) would like the world to believe is a myth constructed to give Kennedy's legacy a "make over".

Now you're quoting Chomsky?

:lol:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEIrZO069Kg]william buckley threatens to punch chomsky in the face - YouTube[/ame]

Man..I miss Bill Buckley.
 
At least Chomsky knows there is a difference between the Khmer Republic and the Khmer Rouge...

I'm quite sure Bill Buckley would have been amused by you, Sallow. You are EVERYTHING that he found lacking in liberals.
 
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You keep going back to that same old Kennedy "white wash" from Time, Bfgrn...

Isn't it obvious at this point that it was written with the express goal of preserving the Kennedy "myth"?

How do you take Kennedy's very real escalation of the number of troops and their combat roles...and then make the claim that he was ready to pull out of Vietnam completely and allow it to fall to the communists? Kennedy states REPEATEDLY that he was not willing to let that happen and his ACTIONS back up that commitment. Yet here you are trotting out the same old tired claim that because Kennedy briefly believed intelligence reports that the war was going so well, that the South Vietnamese could be trusted to "mop things up" in a victory over the Viet Minh and asked for a study on the draw down of troops by a mere thousand, that he would have done so following the assassination of Diem and the realization that things were NOT going as well as he'd been led to believe.

WHY the fuck would Robert McNamara want to 'whitewash' JFK and incriminate HIMSELF???
 
At least Chomsky knows there is a difference between the Khmer Republic and the Khmer Rouge...

I'm quite sure Bill Buckley would have been amused by you, Sallow. You are EVERYTHING that he found lacking in liberals.

“You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks”
William F. Buckley Jr.
 
At least Chomsky knows there is a difference between the Khmer Republic and the Khmer Rouge...

I'm quite sure Bill Buckley would have been amused by you, Sallow. You are EVERYTHING that he found lacking in liberals.

“You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks”
William F. Buckley Jr.

You notice he didn't even attempt to do so with the left considering you're all f****** Kooks

tapatalk post
 
At least Chomsky knows there is a difference between the Khmer Republic and the Khmer Rouge...

I'm quite sure Bill Buckley would have been amused by you, Sallow. You are EVERYTHING that he found lacking in liberals.

“You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks”
William F. Buckley Jr.

You notice he didn't even attempt to do so with the left considering you're all f****** Kooks

tapatalk post

Just LOOK at your avatar and the avatar of you folks on the right...it is always threatening. Never a symbol of liberty but a symbol of power.

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians
 
“You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks”
William F. Buckley Jr.

You notice he didn't even attempt to do so with the left considering you're all f****** Kooks

tapatalk post

Just LOOK at your avatar and the avatar of you folks on the right...it is always threatening. Never a symbol of liberty but a symbol of power.

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians

My avatar threatens you? Really? Is it the ladder?
 
You keep going back to that same old Kennedy "white wash" from Time, Bfgrn...

Isn't it obvious at this point that it was written with the express goal of preserving the Kennedy "myth"?

How do you take Kennedy's very real escalation of the number of troops and their combat roles...and then make the claim that he was ready to pull out of Vietnam completely and allow it to fall to the communists? Kennedy states REPEATEDLY that he was not willing to let that happen and his ACTIONS back up that commitment. Yet here you are trotting out the same old tired claim that because Kennedy briefly believed intelligence reports that the war was going so well, that the South Vietnamese could be trusted to "mop things up" in a victory over the Viet Minh and asked for a study on the draw down of troops by a mere thousand, that he would have done so following the assassination of Diem and the realization that things were NOT going as well as he'd been led to believe.

WHY the fuck would Robert McNamara want to 'whitewash' JFK and incriminate HIMSELF???

Because he was not just an employee of JFK...he was one of his best friends.
 
You keep going back to that same old Kennedy "white wash" from Time, Bfgrn...

Isn't it obvious at this point that it was written with the express goal of preserving the Kennedy "myth"?

How do you take Kennedy's very real escalation of the number of troops and their combat roles...and then make the claim that he was ready to pull out of Vietnam completely and allow it to fall to the communists? Kennedy states REPEATEDLY that he was not willing to let that happen and his ACTIONS back up that commitment. Yet here you are trotting out the same old tired claim that because Kennedy briefly believed intelligence reports that the war was going so well, that the South Vietnamese could be trusted to "mop things up" in a victory over the Viet Minh and asked for a study on the draw down of troops by a mere thousand, that he would have done so following the assassination of Diem and the realization that things were NOT going as well as he'd been led to believe.

WHY the fuck would Robert McNamara want to 'whitewash' JFK and incriminate HIMSELF???

Because he was not just an employee of JFK...he was one of his best friends.

Progressives hate when people don't buy the JFK myth

tapatalk post
 
There are some intelligent Progressives on this board but OMG there are some dumb ones! Sallow gave me neg rep with the following message:

"Nixon initially supported the Khmer Rouge. He know bombing Cambodia would help them into power and they would fight the North Vietnamese. Of course you are such a dolt you don't know that." Sallow

The only problem is that Nixon supported the Khmer Republic...not the Khmer Rouge...something that Sallow was obviously ignorant of. But what's really indicative of his mind set is that when I pointed out that the Khmer Republic and the Khmer Rouge were not the same, his response was something along the lines of "So what?"

It would be akin to mixing up the "White Russian's" with the "Red Russians" and then bristling at someone pointing out that they aren't the same.
 
You notice he didn't even attempt to do so with the left considering you're all f****** Kooks

tapatalk post

Just LOOK at your avatar and the avatar of you folks on the right...it is always threatening. Never a symbol of liberty but a symbol of power.

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians

My avatar threatens you? Really? Is it the ladder?

If you look at the avatars on this board the VAST majority of dark, sinister and threatening ones are chosen by 'conservatives'. Are there exceptions? Of COURSE.
 
Just LOOK at your avatar and the avatar of you folks on the right...it is always threatening. Never a symbol of liberty but a symbol of power.

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians

My avatar threatens you? Really? Is it the ladder?

If you look at the avatars on this board the VAST majority of dark, sinister and threatening ones are chosen by 'conservatives'. Are there exceptions? Of COURSE.

That is stupid

tapatalk post
 
You keep going back to that same old Kennedy "white wash" from Time, Bfgrn...

Isn't it obvious at this point that it was written with the express goal of preserving the Kennedy "myth"?

How do you take Kennedy's very real escalation of the number of troops and their combat roles...and then make the claim that he was ready to pull out of Vietnam completely and allow it to fall to the communists? Kennedy states REPEATEDLY that he was not willing to let that happen and his ACTIONS back up that commitment. Yet here you are trotting out the same old tired claim that because Kennedy briefly believed intelligence reports that the war was going so well, that the South Vietnamese could be trusted to "mop things up" in a victory over the Viet Minh and asked for a study on the draw down of troops by a mere thousand, that he would have done so following the assassination of Diem and the realization that things were NOT going as well as he'd been led to believe.

WHY the fuck would Robert McNamara want to 'whitewash' JFK and incriminate HIMSELF???

Because he was not just an employee of JFK...he was one of his best friends.

Kennedy had his circle of friends. Mac was an adviser. JFK didn't know McNamara before he chose his cabinet. McNamara came from the private sector. He was president of the Ford Motor Company.

Why would Francis Bator, who had been President Johnson's Deputy National Security Adviser, lie to protect Kennedy? The Johnson people have always tried to drag JFK into LBJ' war.

Francis Bator:
"Professor Galbraith is correct that “there was a plan to withdraw US forces from Vietnam, beginning with the first thousand by December 1963, and almost all of the rest by the end of 1965…. President Kennedy had approved that plan. It was the actual policy of the United States on the day Kennedy died."

Did the official documents also lie to protect Kennedy??

Walkthrough - Vietnam in Late 1963

20 Nov 1963 - Honolulu Meeting Briefing Book, Part I. See also Part II.
The briefing books prepared for a Vietnam meeting in Honolulu reaffirmed the timetables for complete withdrawal from Vietnam, as well as the initial 1,000 main withdrawal, despite the recent coup in Vietnam.

24 Nov 1963 - Memorandum for the Record of a Meeting, Executive Office Building, Washington, November 24, 1963, 3 p.m.
Within two days of President Kennedy's death, on Sunday afternoon, President Johnson already began receiving advice that "we could not at this point or time give a particularly optimistic appraisal of the future" regarding Vietnam. President Johnson expressed dissatisfaction with the present course and particularly its emphasis on social reforms, and stated that "He was anxious to get along, win the war..."


26 Nov 1963 - National Security Action Memorandum No. 273
NSAM 273 was drafted while President Kennedy was still alive, though he never saw the draft. The final version was signed by President Johnson on the day after the Kennedy funeral, November 26. Concerning troop withdrawal, it reiterated the "objectives" of the Oct 2 announcement without noting the October 11 implementation in NSAM 263. The wording of a section on covert action against North Vietnam was loosened significantly (see following document).

26 Dec 1963 - 202-10002-10112: MILITARY OPERATIONS IN NORTH VIETNAM
This memo to General Taylor discusses proposed covert actions against North Vietnam which were generated in the wake of the Kennedy assassination, after having been alluded to in one paragraph from NSAM 273. These OPLAN 34 activities would have as one of their effects the Gulf of Tonkin incident, used by President Johnson to obtain Congressional approval for dramatically escalating the war.
 
WHY the fuck would Robert McNamara want to 'whitewash' JFK and incriminate HIMSELF???

Because he was not just an employee of JFK...he was one of his best friends.

Kennedy had his circle of friends. Mac was an adviser. JFK didn't know McNamara before he chose his cabinet. McNamara came from the private sector. He was president of the Ford Motor Company.

Why would Francis Bator, who had been President Johnson's Deputy National Security Adviser, lie to protect Kennedy? The Johnson people have always tried to drag JFK into LBJ' war.

Francis Bator:
"Professor Galbraith is correct that “there was a plan to withdraw US forces from Vietnam, beginning with the first thousand by December 1963, and almost all of the rest by the end of 1965…. President Kennedy had approved that plan. It was the actual policy of the United States on the day Kennedy died."

Did the official documents also lie to protect Kennedy??

Walkthrough - Vietnam in Late 1963

20 Nov 1963 - Honolulu Meeting Briefing Book, Part I. See also Part II.
The briefing books prepared for a Vietnam meeting in Honolulu reaffirmed the timetables for complete withdrawal from Vietnam, as well as the initial 1,000 main withdrawal, despite the recent coup in Vietnam.

24 Nov 1963 - Memorandum for the Record of a Meeting, Executive Office Building, Washington, November 24, 1963, 3 p.m.
Within two days of President Kennedy's death, on Sunday afternoon, President Johnson already began receiving advice that "we could not at this point or time give a particularly optimistic appraisal of the future" regarding Vietnam. President Johnson expressed dissatisfaction with the present course and particularly its emphasis on social reforms, and stated that "He was anxious to get along, win the war..."


26 Nov 1963 - National Security Action Memorandum No. 273
NSAM 273 was drafted while President Kennedy was still alive, though he never saw the draft. The final version was signed by President Johnson on the day after the Kennedy funeral, November 26. Concerning troop withdrawal, it reiterated the "objectives" of the Oct 2 announcement without noting the October 11 implementation in NSAM 263. The wording of a section on covert action against North Vietnam was loosened significantly (see following document).

26 Dec 1963 - 202-10002-10112: MILITARY OPERATIONS IN NORTH VIETNAM
This memo to General Taylor discusses proposed covert actions against North Vietnam which were generated in the wake of the Kennedy assassination, after having been alluded to in one paragraph from NSAM 273. These OPLAN 34 activities would have as one of their effects the Gulf of Tonkin incident, used by President Johnson to obtain Congressional approval for dramatically escalating the war.

Calling Robert McNamara an "adviser" doesn't come close to describing his relationship with JFK.

"According to Special Counsel Ted Sorensen, Kennedy regarded McNamara as the "star of his team, calling upon him for advice on a wide range of issues beyond national security, including business and economic matters."[15] McNamara became one of the few members of the Kennedy Administration to work and socialize with Kennedy, and he became so close to Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy that he served as a pallbearer at the younger Kennedy's funeral in 1968.[16] McNamara's specialty was to statistically analyze the efficiency of fighting the protracted Vietnam War, including how to maximize the use of defoliants, bombs, and cannon.[17]" Wikipedia
 
You keep restating the fact that there was a "plan" to withdraw a thousand troops from South Vietnam...and I keep restating that "plan" was effectively abandoned a month after JFK asked that it be put together. There is no proof what so ever that John F. Kennedy was ready to pull out of Vietnam and let the communists take control. His speeches and comments to other world leaders at that time all point to a man who is still adamant about stemming the tide of communism worldwide.

This attempt to "rewrite" the history of what JFK did in Vietnam is simply not backed up by the facts. The FACT is that Kennedy escalated the war in just about every way possible. He increased troop levels from under a thousand to more than sixteen thousand in a few scant years. He introduced the policy of deforestation and forced relocation of civilians to keep them away from the influence of the Viet Minh. He had US pilots flying hundreds of combat sorties, bombing and using napalm on hamlets "suspected" of being Viet Cong supporters. Those are NOT the actions of someone who is adverse to conflict.
 
Because he was not just an employee of JFK...he was one of his best friends.

Kennedy had his circle of friends. Mac was an adviser. JFK didn't know McNamara before he chose his cabinet. McNamara came from the private sector. He was president of the Ford Motor Company.

Why would Francis Bator, who had been President Johnson's Deputy National Security Adviser, lie to protect Kennedy? The Johnson people have always tried to drag JFK into LBJ' war.

Francis Bator:
"Professor Galbraith is correct that “there was a plan to withdraw US forces from Vietnam, beginning with the first thousand by December 1963, and almost all of the rest by the end of 1965…. President Kennedy had approved that plan. It was the actual policy of the United States on the day Kennedy died."

Did the official documents also lie to protect Kennedy??

Walkthrough - Vietnam in Late 1963

20 Nov 1963 - Honolulu Meeting Briefing Book, Part I. See also Part II.
The briefing books prepared for a Vietnam meeting in Honolulu reaffirmed the timetables for complete withdrawal from Vietnam, as well as the initial 1,000 main withdrawal, despite the recent coup in Vietnam.

24 Nov 1963 - Memorandum for the Record of a Meeting, Executive Office Building, Washington, November 24, 1963, 3 p.m.
Within two days of President Kennedy's death, on Sunday afternoon, President Johnson already began receiving advice that "we could not at this point or time give a particularly optimistic appraisal of the future" regarding Vietnam. President Johnson expressed dissatisfaction with the present course and particularly its emphasis on social reforms, and stated that "He was anxious to get along, win the war..."


26 Nov 1963 - National Security Action Memorandum No. 273
NSAM 273 was drafted while President Kennedy was still alive, though he never saw the draft. The final version was signed by President Johnson on the day after the Kennedy funeral, November 26. Concerning troop withdrawal, it reiterated the "objectives" of the Oct 2 announcement without noting the October 11 implementation in NSAM 263. The wording of a section on covert action against North Vietnam was loosened significantly (see following document).

26 Dec 1963 - 202-10002-10112: MILITARY OPERATIONS IN NORTH VIETNAM
This memo to General Taylor discusses proposed covert actions against North Vietnam which were generated in the wake of the Kennedy assassination, after having been alluded to in one paragraph from NSAM 273. These OPLAN 34 activities would have as one of their effects the Gulf of Tonkin incident, used by President Johnson to obtain Congressional approval for dramatically escalating the war.

Calling Robert McNamara an "adviser" doesn't come close to describing his relationship with JFK.

"According to Special Counsel Ted Sorensen, Kennedy regarded McNamara as the "star of his team, calling upon him for advice on a wide range of issues beyond national security, including business and economic matters."[15] McNamara became one of the few members of the Kennedy Administration to work and socialize with Kennedy, and he became so close to Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy that he served as a pallbearer at the younger Kennedy's funeral in 1968.[16] McNamara's specialty was to statistically analyze the efficiency of fighting the protracted Vietnam War, including how to maximize the use of defoliants, bombs, and cannon.[17]" Wikipedia

Was Francis Bator a pallbearer at Bobby Kennedy's funeral in 1968 too? Everyone knows LBJ and RFK were bosom buddies.

Two days after Kennedy was killed the strategy change drastically. LBJ expressed dissatisfaction with the present course and particularly its emphasis on social reforms, and stated that "He was anxious to get along, win the war..."

Did Khrushchev also lie to protect JFK when he wrote in his memoir, If Kennedy had lived, the two men could have brought peace to the world?
 
You keep restating the fact that there was a "plan" to withdraw a thousand troops from South Vietnam...and I keep restating that "plan" was effectively abandoned a month after JFK asked that it be put together. There is no proof what so ever that John F. Kennedy was ready to pull out of Vietnam and let the communists take control. His speeches and comments to other world leaders at that time all point to a man who is still adamant about stemming the tide of communism worldwide.

This attempt to "rewrite" the history of what JFK did in Vietnam is simply not backed up by the facts. The FACT is that Kennedy escalated the war in just about every way possible. He increased troop levels from under a thousand to more than sixteen thousand in a few scant years. He introduced the policy of deforestation and forced relocation of civilians to keep them away from the influence of the Viet Minh. He had US pilots flying hundreds of combat sorties, bombing and using napalm on hamlets "suspected" of being Viet Cong supporters. Those are NOT the actions of someone who is adverse to conflict.

"War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."
John F. Kennedy

The plan was not abandoned. Two days before Kennedy was assassinated that plan was in place. And two days after Kennedy was assassinated that plan was drastically changed.

20 Nov 1963 - Honolulu Meeting Briefing Book, Part I. See also Part II.
The briefing books prepared for a Vietnam meeting in Honolulu reaffirmed the timetables for complete withdrawal from Vietnam, as well as the initial 1,000 main withdrawal, despite the recent coup in Vietnam.

24 Nov 1963 - Memorandum for the Record of a Meeting, Executive Office Building, Washington, November 24, 1963, 3 p.m.
Within two days of President Kennedy's death, on Sunday afternoon, President Johnson already began receiving advice that "we could not at this point or time give a particularly optimistic appraisal of the future" regarding Vietnam. President Johnson expressed dissatisfaction with the present course and particularly its emphasis on social reforms, and stated that "He was anxious to get along, win the war..."
 

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