Palestine Today

[Shusha]

You touched on some basic principles.

I have posted two items that specifically state that the people belong to the land. I have posted three documents that concur with this principle. I have posted documents that say that Palestinian land/borders still existed after the end of the 1948 war. I have posted UN resolutions stating that the Palestinians have the right to self determination and the right to return.

Yet people post pages of clutter trying to dance around the issues.

Well, I don't know where it is, exactly, that you have posted all these documents because I haven't seen them. I certainly haven't seen the primary source material. Please clarify.

However, do NOT post anything which supports:

• that borders, when not specified in peace treaties, generally follow the previous territorial borders
• that the borders haven't changed since after the end of the 1948 war
• that citizens generally adopt or follow the change in sovereignty
• that Arab Palestinians have a right to self-determination

Why? Because I AGREE with you already on all of these points.


Also, do not bother to post:

• anything about UNGA 194 as the source of a right of return in perpetuity

Why? Because its not sufficient, imo, for such a MAJOR change in customary law.

I'm glad we agree on some issues.

BTW, resolution 194 was written with strict adherence to international law.

Okay. So let's break down what we do agree on.

We agree that Turkey renounced the territory referred to as Palestine.

We agree that through a complex development of the concept of self-determination in IL, the territory was set to become an independent nation, under temporary administration (but never sovereignty) of the UK under a Mandate system.

We agree the borders of this territory were set prior to 1923 through standard practice of the time and exist, unchanged, up until today.

We agree that the territory has not been divided through any lasting, permanent treaty or agreement.

We agree the nationality of the people normally follows the changes in sovereignty.


Yes?

So what is the question? Who has sovereignty on that territory? And how did they obtain it? My claim is that Israel holds sovereignty. My claim is justified by the documents I submitted to you, as well as clear and simple facts.

1. That the right of the Jewish people to a national homeland in that territory is an historical right to self-determination.

2. That this right for the Jewish people has been supported by the international community for more than 100 years.

3. That this right has been entrenched in international legal agreements and treaties which have not and can not be abrogated, except through Israel's consent.

4. That the territory HAS borders, as inherited from previous agreements and treaties, in compliance with normative law, from previous sovereigns (or in this case, administrators).

5. That those borders are confirmed through international treaties with surrounding States.

6. That she has Declared her Independence in the normative way.

7. That having fulfilled the requirements for sovereignty of government, population, territory and international relations, and having been accepted by the international community as a full member with all rights, obligations and privileges, acts on the world stage as an equal to all other State actors.

8. That she exerts control over territory in the absence of any other sovereign.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You touched on some basic principles.

I have posted two items that specifically state that the people belong to the land. I have posted three documents that concur with this principle. I have posted documents that say that Palestinian land/borders still existed after the end of the 1948 war. I have posted UN resolutions stating that the Palestinians have the right to self determination and the right to return.

Yet people post pages of clutter trying to dance around the issues.

Well, I don't know where it is, exactly, that you have posted all these documents because I haven't seen them. I certainly haven't seen the primary source material. Please clarify.

However, do NOT post anything which supports:

• that borders, when not specified in peace treaties, generally follow the previous territorial borders
• that the borders haven't changed since after the end of the 1948 war
• that citizens generally adopt or follow the change in sovereignty
• that Arab Palestinians have a right to self-determination

Why? Because I AGREE with you already on all of these points.


Also, do not bother to post:

• anything about UNGA 194 as the source of a right of return in perpetuity

Why? Because its not sufficient, imo, for such a MAJOR change in customary law.

I'm glad we agree on some issues.

BTW, resolution 194 was written with strict adherence to international law.

Okay. So let's break down what we do agree on.

We agree that Turkey renounced the territory referred to as Palestine.

We agree that through a complex development of the concept of self-determination in IL, the territory was set to become an independent nation, under temporary administration (but never sovereignty) of the UK under a Mandate system.

We agree the borders of this territory were set prior to 1923 through standard practice of the time and exist, unchanged, up until today.

We agree that the territory has not been divided through any lasting, permanent treaty or agreement.

We agree the nationality of the people normally follows the changes in sovereignty.


Yes?

So what is the question? Who has sovereignty on that territory? And how did they obtain it? My claim is that Israel holds sovereignty. My claim is justified by the documents I submitted to you, as well as clear and simple facts.

1. That the right of the Jewish people to a national homeland in that territory is an historical right to self-determination.

2. That this right for the Jewish people has been supported by the international community for more than 100 years.

3. That this right has been entrenched in international legal agreements and treaties which have not and can not be abrogated, except through Israel's consent.

4. That the territory HAS borders, as inherited from previous agreements and treaties, in compliance with normative law, from previous sovereigns (or in this case, administrators).

5. That those borders are confirmed through international treaties with surrounding States.

6. That she has Declared her Independence in the normative way.

7. That having fulfilled the requirements for sovereignty of government, population, territory and international relations, and having been accepted by the international community as a full member with all rights, obligations and privileges, acts on the world stage as an equal to all other State actors.

8. That she exerts control over territory in the absence of any other sovereign.

Who has sovereignty on that territory? And how did they obtain it?

My question and I never get answers.

 

[member]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ "P F Tinmore, et al,

Nobody is dancing around the issue. You are attempting to use this "people belong to the land" as some sort of authority to the Arab Palestinian superior claim to the sovereign territory and "Right of Return."

IF anyone → it is YOU that is dancing around the issue.

You could lay the entire issue to rest by submitting the specific citation in Law, Binding Resolution by enforcement date, Convention, Treaty, etc, that gives the "Right of Return" as a universal obligation that requires a controlling nation to surrender territory.

Citing documents my ass.

You touched on some basic principles.

I have posted two items that specifically state that the people belong to the land. I have posted three documents that concur with this principle. I have posted documents that say that Palestinian land/borders still existed after the end of the 1948 war. I have posted UN resolutions stating that the Palestinians have the right to self determination and the right to return.

Yet people post pages of clutter trying to dance around the issues.

(COMMENT)

You have NOT done it. Why, because it does NOT exist. Whereas, I provided you the binding citation
Adopted and opened for accession in General Assembly Resolution 2200A (XXI) of 16 December 1966; well before the creation of the PLO by Palestine National Charter of 1968. And Israel established effective control over the West Bank and Jerusalem in 1967, well before the League of Arab States established the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people "in any Palestinian territory that is liberated" (1974).

◈ What Palestinian territory has been liberated?​

The Palestinians have not liberated any territory; even by their own standards.

..........
Most Respectfully,
R

​

Let's all dance to it!

​

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestinian students stage a protest in Birzeit University in Ramallah in solidarity with the Palestinian detainee Samer al-Arabeed who is currently in a coma after being exposed to severe torture by Israeli interrogators.

 

[rylah]

And not a single was Jew murdered by Arabs in Hebron the following 4 years.
Coincidence?

 

[rylah]

Palestinian students stage a protest in Birzeit University in Ramallah in solidarity with the Palestinian detainee Samer al-Arabeed who is currently in a coma after being exposed to severe torture by Israeli interrogators.

Oh the poor victim...
Let's just practice that sad kitten face, right?

And hope they don't find out your Jihadi filth bombed a 17 year girl to death.

 

[Shusha]

My question and I never get answers.

I LITERALLY answered it in the post you quoted.

 

[Shusha]

And may this horrific excuse for a human being always be condemned for his vile and inhumane act of terrorism. May he serve as a singular reminder of what every Jew, and what every human being, of whatever ethnicity, must resist becoming.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Al-Aqsa Intifada, 2000.

 

[rylah]

And may this horrific excuse for a human being always be condemned for his vile and inhumane act of terrorism. May he serve as a singular reminder of what every Jew, and what every human being, of whatever ethnicity, must resist becoming.

Dr. Baruch Goldstein HY"D prevented an Arab massacre against the Jewish community, information of which was passed to him days before the attack by the gen. Shaul Mofaz, who gathered an emergency meeting of the military and medical personnel, later of which was headed by Dr. Goldstein as officer, preparing them in advance.

It was mentioned in the Shamgar report, that Goldstein was ordered to prepare all his medical equipment and make sure there was and extra amount of supplies for that which the military intelligence seen as inevitable. It was reported in the leading newspaper Yediot Ahronot that the Iz al-Adin al-Qassam, military wing of Hamas had warned the Arab community to store food supplies for a curfew that would apply in the next few days due to a planned operation (p. 236 Shamgar report ). While sheikh Tayysir Tamimi, one of the chief sheiks of the Waqf in Hebron, openly called for murder of Jews and recruited worshipers in the Cave of the Patriarchs during those days leading to the attack (p.139). The same report mentions an article in the HaTzofeh, reporting of 2000 Arabs gathering on the entrance to the Cave screaming "Yitbah al-Yahud!" ("slaughter Jews!") preventing Jews, of whom were Dr. Goldstein and many others, from entering during the holiday of Purim, this was also the month of Ramadan.

A witness recalled Dr. Goldstein getting frustrated upon return from the Cave, and receiving another letter ordering to prepare additional supplies, he could not comprehend why he had to prepare those supplies while the military intelligence knew and just waited expecting the eminent. All matter of public record. He decided to preempt - the next day he wore his military uniform, which was the only way to enter the compound, an officer drove him to the site where he attacked preemptively. For the following 4 years no Jew was harmed in Hebron.

Dr. Goldstein was a descendant of a family that was harmed during the Hebron massacres of 1929.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ "P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah...

BTW, resolution 194 was written with strict adherence to international law.

(COMMENT)

Oh no question, the non-binding Resolution was written IAW International Law.

◈ But then all Resolutions are created and published IAW International Law. Having said that, the Resolution itself is not International Law.

◈ And the Resolution stipulates that: "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so..." But the fact of the matter is that:

The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration (Statement of 6 February 1948) before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.
​

When defining the rights of a people the control of territory is never mentioned.

(COMMENT)

You are mixing Apples with Oranges... I'm not sure your observation is true. Because "rights" are defined by society. That is why there are so many different kinds of "rights," and why the rights of the citizen vary from nation to nation, or from religion to religion.

.......
Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

◈ And the Resolution stipulates that: "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so..." But the fact of the matter is that:

The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration (Statement of 6 February 1948) before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.

There was no partition.

 

[rylah]

◈ And the Resolution stipulates that: "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so..." But the fact of the matter is that:

The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration (Statement of 6 February 1948) before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.

There was no partition.

"Earth is flat, sky is pink... and the Arabs didn't get 80% of the land intended for Jews."

 

[rylah]

Anti-Zionism, not antisemitism right?

 

[rylah]

Palestinian Authority bans Arab LGBT community activities
A PA Police spokesman said such activities are"detrimental" to the "ideals of Palestinian society"

The Palestinian Authority has banned members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community from carrying out activities in the West Bank.

The ban comes after the Al-Qaws group, which supports the Palestinian LGBT community, planned to hold a rally for its members in Nablus at the end of the month. The group operates both in the West Bank and Israel.

Earlier this month, Al-Qaws organized an event in Nablus on sexual and gender diversity in Palestinian society. The Palestinian Authority (PA) police did not intervene, having learned of the event only days after it was held.

Explaining the prohibition, PA Police spokesman Luay Zreikat said such activities are "detrimental to the values and ideals of Palestinian society."

Zreikat added that the group's activities were antithetical to "Palestinian religion, traditions and customs, particularly in the city of Nablus".

He also accused unidentified "dubious parties" of having worked to "create discord and undermine civil peace."

Palestinian Authority bans Arab LGBT community activities in West Bank

Because nothing else could better express those "liberal progressive values"...right?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ "P F Tinmore, et al,

There was no partition.

(COMMENT)

And it is making statements such as this, where your credibility comes into question.

No matter what you might think of the political-military devices or action in use at the time (and up through today), or any outcome of conflict since the establishment of Israel, the fact of the matter is → there are in fact partitions in play today; temporary as they may be.

I'm not even going to bother inserting a map for you to reject out of hand. But the territory formerly administered under the Mandate for Palestine, and short-titled "Palestine" by the Palestine Order in Council, has been the terrain over which several unsuccessful Arab military conflicts have been fought. Each conflict in the name of the Arab Palestinian, to establish the entirety of "Palestine" as the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people has been totally unsuccessful and ultimately counterproductive. Each successive outbreak of hostilities resulted in a gradual reduction in territory that might have been open to become an additional Arab State as described in Part II • Boundaries, Section A • The Arab State, UN Resolution A/RES/181 (II).
.......
Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ "P F Tinmore, et al,

There was no partition.

(COMMENT)

And it is making statements such as this, where your credibility comes into question.

No matter what you might think of the political-military devices or action in use at the time (and up through today), or any outcome of conflict since the establishment of Israel, the fact of the matter is → there are in fact partitions in play today; temporary as they may be.

I'm not even going to bother inserting a map for you to reject out of hand. But the territory formerly administered under the Mandate for Palestine, and short-titled "Palestine" by the Palestine Order in Council, has been the terrain over which several unsuccessful Arab military conflicts have been fought. Each conflict in the name of the Arab Palestinian, to establish the entirety of "Palestine" as the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people has been totally unsuccessful and ultimately counterproductive. Each successive outbreak of hostilities resulted in a gradual reduction in territory that might have been open to become an additional Arab State as described in Part II • Boundaries, Section A • The Arab State, UN Resolution A/RES/181 (II).
.......
Most Respectfully,
R

the fact of the matter is → there are in fact partitions in play today; temporary as they may be.

Created at the point of a gun not by treaty which is illegal.

 

[P F Tinmore]

ISRAEL – THE ORIGIN OF TERRORISM
Malaysia cannot cannot accept the blatant seizure of Palestine land by Israel for their settlements as well as the occupation of Jerusalem by Israel. The Palestinians cannot even enter the settlements built on their land.
Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad