Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

[Sweet_Caroline]

Israel drops leaflets and sends messages warning people that a aerial bombardment of legitimate targets is about to begin. How that for consideration.

 

[Coyote]

Unfortunately Israel also uses kids as human shields - a practice I find dispicable on both sides.

You are, pardon my French, full of shit. Gaza clearly hides behind its own children to shield its "fighters" from Israeli attacks. Israel (despite the unsubstantiated claims you are referring to) has NEVER engaged in such a practice. Rather, Israel has been forced to build bomb shelters in all of its border towns to protect its children from rocket fire.

I don't think it's me that is using talking points. There are substantiated claims that Israel has used human shields and in fact, one case went through the courts. The fact that you choose to ignore this in order to spout your propaganda and refuse to discuss it is not my lacking but yours.

You might also think about those bomb shelters and ask yourself why it is that Arab villages within Israel near the border seldom have them? There are inequities. It won't kill you or destroy Israel to examine them.

You couldn't answer my questions, so you're right back on your talking points. This is a waste of time.

I believe I've spent considerably more time and patience answering your questions for example on WP, alternatives that were available, etc while all I've got in return from you is vitriolic spew.

Yes. It is a waste of time. There are other posters here far more capable of a rational dialogue.

 

[Coyote]

There is absolutely NO reason to use WP on civilians.

Putting the issue of WP to the side for a moment, how do you define a "civilian" target?

If rocket launchers are, for example, placed on the roof of a hospital or school, is that a civilian target or a military target?

If a group of terrorists have their headquarters in an apartment building, is that a civilian target or a military target?

If a factory makes farming equipment on floors 1-3, and bombs in the basement, is that a civilian target or a military target?

I think it can be very difficult to define "civilian targets" in the context you are talking about and because, in a place as densely populated as Gaza - you have to be very careful about the methods you use.

I am guessing that this is where History thinks I'm not answering his questions so I'll expand on what he said.

In the examples he gave, targets are both civilian and military. My answer was to say that because of that, methods should be used that cause the least amount of civilian casualties and a great deal of care should be taken in regards to targeting.

Is that sufficient or is the only answer acceptable to you a black/white yes/no arrangement?

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields." Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.

Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating in Gaza, by contract, unquestionably have a POLICY of using its civilians as human shields.

As for why Gaza lacks bomb shelters... maybe because they spend too much time digging tunnels to smuggle in weapons, rather than doing something productive for their own people.

 

[toastman]

Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields." Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.

Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating in Gaza, by contract, unquestionably have a POLICY of using its civilians as human shields.

As for why Gaza lacks bomb shelters... maybe because they spend too much time digging tunnels to smuggle in weapons, rather than doing something productive for their own people.

Why would Hamas build bomb shelters ?? That would reduce civilian casualties. They need their civilians to be killed so they can gain more world sympathy.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Putting the issue of WP to the side for a moment, how do you define a "civilian" target?

If rocket launchers are, for example, placed on the roof of a hospital or school, is that a civilian target or a military target?

If a group of terrorists have their headquarters in an apartment building, is that a civilian target or a military target?

If a factory makes farming equipment on floors 1-3, and bombs in the basement, is that a civilian target or a military target?

I think it can be very difficult to define "civilian targets" in the context you are talking about and because, in a place as densely populated as Gaza - you have to be very careful about the methods you use.

I am guessing that this is where History thinks I'm not answering his questions so I'll expand on what he said.

In the examples he gave, targets are both civilian and military. My answer was to say that because of that, methods should be used that cause the least amount of civilian casualties and a great deal of care should be taken in regards to targeting.

Is that sufficient or is the only answer acceptable to you a black/white yes/no arrangement?

Israel routinely drops fliers advising civilians who are being used as shields to evacuate before hitting military targets. Sometimes, though, those types of precautions are either impractical or ineffective.

So what would you have Israel do? Simply let the Arabs fire rockets with impunity for fear of civilian casualties, or protect its own citizens? You can't always have it both ways.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Violations of the Geneva Convention with regards to human shields. An excellent video, well worth seeing.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo]Hamas Exploitation of Civilians as Human Shields - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Coyote]

Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields." Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.

Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating in Gaza, by contract, unquestionably have a POLICY of using its civilians as human shields.

As for why Gaza lacks bomb shelters... maybe because they spend too much time digging tunnels to smuggle in weapons, rather than doing something productive for their own people.

I said Arab villages within Israel - NOT Gaza.

Israel may not have a "policy" of doing so but they are doing so.

Not to defend Hamas in any way (because I think they are criminal in that they target civilians almost exclusively) but - perhaps you show me their "policy" that states using human shields as part of their strategy.

 

[toastman]

Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields." Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.

Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating in Gaza, by contract, unquestionably have a POLICY of using its civilians as human shields.

As for why Gaza lacks bomb shelters... maybe because they spend too much time digging tunnels to smuggle in weapons, rather than doing something productive for their own people.

I said Arab villages within Israel - NOT Gaza.

Israel may not have a "policy" of doing so but they are doing so.

Not to defend Hamas in any way (because I think they are criminal in that they target civilians almost exclusively) but - perhaps you show me their "policy" that states using human shields as part of their strategy.

Firing from civilian areas such as houses, knowing full well that Israel will launch missiles there to eliminate the threat, is using civilians as human shields.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

I said Arab villages within Israel - NOT Gaza.

Because the terrorists in Gaza routinely target Arab villages?

Israel may not have a "policy" of doing so but they are doing so.

You have no proof of that, and yet you keep repeating it as if its a fact.

Not to defend Hamas in any way (because I think they are criminal in that they target civilians almost exclusively) but - perhaps you show me their "policy" that states using human shields as part of their strategy.

When you do continually engage in the same practice, it certainly can be inferred that it is policy. Plus, let's not forget which of the two cultures finds merit in the notion of martyrdom.

 

[Coyote]

I think it can be very difficult to define "civilian targets" in the context you are talking about and because, in a place as densely populated as Gaza - you have to be very careful about the methods you use.

I am guessing that this is where History thinks I'm not answering his questions so I'll expand on what he said.

In the examples he gave, targets are both civilian and military. My answer was to say that because of that, methods should be used that cause the least amount of civilian casualties and a great deal of care should be taken in regards to targeting.

Is that sufficient or is the only answer acceptable to you a black/white yes/no arrangement?

Israel routinely drops fliers advising civilians who are being used as shields to evacuate before hitting military targets. Sometimes, though, those types of precautions are either impractical or ineffective. .

In terms of that Gaza attack, they were - targets were changing and targeting appeared to be done on the fly. Even a UN building and journalist quarters were hit.

So what would you have Israel do? Simply let the Arabs fire rockets with impunity for fear of civilian casualties, or protect its own citizens? You can't always have it both ways.

I expect them NOT to use WP in situations were it was specifically contraindicated and unnecessary.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields." Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.

Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating in Gaza, by contract, unquestionably have a POLICY of using its civilians as human shields.

As for why Gaza lacks bomb shelters... maybe because they spend too much time digging tunnels to smuggle in weapons, rather than doing something productive for their own people.

Why would Hamas build bomb shelters ?? That would reduce civilian casualties. They need their civilians to be killed so they can gain more world sympathy.

Hamas are delighted when their civilians die. They look on death not like we would do, but as a means to further their cause.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

I am guessing that this is where History thinks I'm not answering his questions so I'll expand on what he said.

In the examples he gave, targets are both civilian and military. My answer was to say that because of that, methods should be used that cause the least amount of civilian casualties and a great deal of care should be taken in regards to targeting.

Is that sufficient or is the only answer acceptable to you a black/white yes/no arrangement?

Israel routinely drops fliers advising civilians who are being used as shields to evacuate before hitting military targets. Sometimes, though, those types of precautions are either impractical or ineffective. .

In terms of that Gaza attack, they were - targets were changing and targeting appeared to be done on the fly. Even a UN building and journalist quarters were hit.

So what would you have Israel do? Simply let the Arabs fire rockets with impunity for fear of civilian casualties, or protect its own citizens? You can't always have it both ways.

I expect them NOT to use WP in situations were it was specifically contraindicated and unnecessary.

We're not talking about WP. Every time you get backed into a corner, you throw that out to take the discussion in another direction.

So, again... when terrorists fire rockets from within civilian areas in Gaza, and precautions are ineffective to separate the terrorists from the civilians... what would have have Israel do? Simply tolerate the attacks?

 

[toastman]

Stop launching rockets and Israel will have no reason to shoot back. It really is THAT simple !!

 

[Coyote]

Because the terrorists in Gaza routinely target Arab villages?

Your answer doesn't make much sense when you consider Hamas doesn't do much in the way of targeting - they fire off rockets and hope they have mass casualties on the Israeli side - it makes no difference to them with it's Jews or Arab citizens and the Arab villages are shelled as often as the Jewish ones.

You have no proof of that, and yet you keep repeating it as if its a fact.

It's stated in the Goldstone report (and, was not retracted). It's also in the UN report, it's been investigated by B'tselem. Despite court rulings - they've continued to do so. You keep asking for "proof" yet you have been unable to show that the UN report is wrong on this.

Human Shield: Use of Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields in Violation of High Court Order | B'Tselem
Palestinian brothers: Israel used us as human shields in Gaza war | World news | guardian.co.uk
Breaking the Silence ? Database
BBC News - Israeli troops demoted over Gaza 'human shield' boy

Not to defend Hamas in any way (because I think they are criminal in that they target civilians almost exclusively) but - perhaps you show me their "policy" that states using human shields as part of their strategy.

When you do continually engage in the same practice, it certainly can be inferred that it is policy. Plus, let's not forget which of the two cultures finds merit in the notion of martyrdom.

IDF have engaged in it a number of times, in defiance of court rulings and punishment is light - is it an unofficial policy?

 

[HistoryBefore67]

You continue to dodge my question, while you fabricate and/or grossly exaggerate claims of Israel using human shields.

When you're ready to answer my question, let me know.

 

[Coyote]

You continue to dodge my question, while you fabricate and/or grossly exaggerate claims of Israel using human shields.

When you're ready to answer my question, let me know.

Bull.

I've provided *you* with far more info then you have in return, including sources while all you bring to the table is your mouth.

Please show proof that the UN report and those articles are wrong on the use of human shields by the IDF.

 

[Coyote]

Israel routinely drops fliers advising civilians who are being used as shields to evacuate before hitting military targets. Sometimes, though, those types of precautions are either impractical or ineffective. .

In terms of that Gaza attack, they were - targets were changing and targeting appeared to be done on the fly. Even a UN building and journalist quarters were hit.

So what would you have Israel do? Simply let the Arabs fire rockets with impunity for fear of civilian casualties, or protect its own citizens? You can't always have it both ways.

I expect them NOT to use WP in situations were it was specifically contraindicated and unnecessary.

We're not talking about WP. Every time you get backed into a corner, you throw that out to take the discussion in another direction.

So, again... when terrorists fire rockets from within civilian areas in Gaza, and precautions are ineffective to separate the terrorists from the civilians... what would have have Israel do? Simply tolerate the attacks?

In this particular instance you CAN NOT seperate out the use of WP because that is what I specifically objected to in earlier posts where WP was part of the discussion.

I have never stated I object to Israel going into Gaza in retaliation for rocket attacks. You've created a strawman here.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

This is no longer a discussion. You dodge questions and then play the "here's a BS report - now disprove it" game.

I'm not interested.

Have a nice day.

 

[Coyote]

Your sole contribution here is insults - you claim something is bogus, ignore multiple sources - offer not a thing in response to refute those sources and then step back and have the audacity to claim "this is no longer a discussion".

Amusing.

Why don't you simply be honest about it and say you can't refute it?

It's one simple little question: can you show proof that the UN report and those articles are wrong on the use of human shields by the IDF?