Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
The Electoral College has nothing to do with the two party system. Third parties don't stand a chance no matter what system is used. People vote against the opposing candidate and voting third party is throwing your vote away. If you vote third party, you may be giving the election to the person you want to keep out.
Sigh. Other countries have third and fourth parties, and they are just fine. In fact, a third party is sometimes needed to form a government.
Again, much like prisons, gun control and socialized medicine, the rest of the world has figured this out.
No, the EC was designed so that places like California, New York and yes, your town of Chicago don't have control over the entire country. It's the same reason we have two Senators in each state regardless of the population or size. It's called equal representation.
But it's not equal representation if you give Wyoming three times the voting power as California. That's just fucking nuts.
If more people live in California, NY and chicago, then they SHOULD control the country.
Sigh. Other countries have third and fourth parties, and they are just fine. In fact, a third party is sometimes needed to form a government.
Again, much like prisons, gun control and socialized medicine, the rest of the world has figured this out.
But it's not equal representation if you give Wyoming three times the voting power as California. That's just fucking nuts.
If more people live in California, NY and chicago, then they SHOULD control the country.
Did you feel the same way when some states voted no on gay marriage? If the majority is against it, then it shouldn't exist, correct?
You don't understand anything, and this post of yours just lets us all know how ignorant you truly are! The electoral college was set up for EXACTLY the reason you stated above, so that no state has a "majority rules" situation.
Here we go with the typical leftist argument how all theses other countries have it so much better than us, yet none of you libs ever packed a bag to go to any of these countries. You stay right here and complain about ours.
It doesn't matter how many parties other countries have. We can have four parties as well. Nothing is stopping us including the Electoral College.
No they shouldn't. If they did, then there would be no sense for anybody in Wyoming to vote in the first place. Is that what you want? Of course you do, because if those cities voted a majority Republican, you wouldn't even bring up the subject.
It seems to me that both ends of the spectrum utilize the tactic of distorting the views of the other to make them an easier target. That's why it's so difficult for me take so much of this seriously.1. My portrayal of the rights positions is absolutely accurate. I am not making it up. It is based on their own words that I have heard based on hundreds of encountersThank you. A couple of questions:So a winger from one end shoots a Congressman from the other end, and we on USMB take that serious and thought-provoking occasion to keep right on attacking, mocking & insulting each other. Pretty much immediately.
Tell me, what is the goal of non-stop attacks on the other side?
.
I am not answering the poll questions because the choices are woefully inadequate. Nothing there reflects my motivation -and yes I am an attack dog against the right, but it is not just a game of one-upmanship to me. My motive is to counter the egregious and mendacious misrepresentation of liberals and progressives. The right wingers are either deliberately and dishonestly dumbing down the issues, or they are really just to stupid to grasp their complexity. It is a fight for the heart and sole-and survival- of this country.... a country that is increasingly becoming a haven for wealthy, white, Christian, straight men to the exclusion and detriment of everyone else. Cases in point ......
Choice, Privacy and Reproductive Rights
Those on the right claim that we love abortion and want no restrictions on it at all. Not true
Liberals do not fight for abortion. We do not think that abortion is a good or pleasant thing. We fight for a woman right to have domain over their own bodies. I'll tell you what we also fight for. We fight for programs that will minimize unwanted pregnancies. We fight for access to birth control. We also fight for programs and policies that will provide supports and assistance to women and families so that they are more likely to carry an unexpected pregnancy to term instead of aborting it.
You can outlaw legal abortion but you can't stop women from having abortions and those abortions will be unsafe. We want to minimize the need for abortions, you want to criminalize it and create pain and suffering.
Jobs and the Economy.
The right claims that we don't care about jobs and prosperity which is absurd
We indeed want jobs and growth....for everyone , not just the privileged few. We want to reverse the obscene disparity in income and wealth. . We reject the failed supply side -trickle down economic theory that big give away s to the wealthy will benefit the masses. We understand that a strong middle class that can earn a living wage is the best medicine for a strong economy.
Criminal Justice.
They claim that we want to coddle criminals . Another misrepresentation
We support a fair and rational system of law enforcement and criminal justice. We support the police while recognizing the fact that some cops use excessive for and that more controls are needed to reign in some departments. We do not support mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses which clog our jails at taxpayers expense, and ruin lives.
Undocumented Aliens
They claim that we want open boarders and surrender the sovereignty of our country
We should and in fact have secured our boarders using practical, common sense means. Many undocumented people have been here many years and have built a life here. Their children know only this country. The work, put money back into the economy, and pay taxes. At the same time, they often must forgo government services and are unable to collect tax refunds. They should have a path to citizenship.
Obama Care
They claim that it is "collapsing under it's own weight" while doing everything that they can to undermine it. They call it socialized medicine and claim that the " free market": is the best solution to rising costs and lack of coverage
Any thinking person can see that the free market has failed miserably. In addition, we do not advocate people getting something for nothing. Everybody pays their way to the extent that they can, be we recognize that some people can't afford the full cost of medical insurance. It is not only detrimental to the individual to allow them to get sick, remain sick and die. It is detrimental to the economy and to a civil society as well.
LGBT Folks
On this they actually do not misrepresent us in claiming that we want equality and dignity for LGBT people. They are relentless cruel and abusive towards them and that is worthy of relentless attack.
Transsexuals, Gays and Lesbians are human beings and live among us. They have families and children. They hold jobs and pay taxes. They are not bothering you so get over it. Many conservatives also support LGBT rights as do various religious denominations. It is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. It is those who believe in equality and value diversity vs. the bigots who are still living in the last century and wish to once again create a shadow society and all of the social ills that would breed.
The Social Safety Net
They malign those who find themselves in need of assistance and claim that it is their own fault that they are poor. I have a major problem with that and will attack them for it.
Yes we have people who are welfare. Public assistance is a by product of capitalism . As the free market economy that conservative love so much expands or contracts due to market forces and world events, so does the need for labor. Public assistance keeps many of those people afloat so that when they are need in the workforce that are healthy and ready to work again. Conservatives rail against socialism but don't understand that it is welfare to supports capitalism. You can't have it both ways.
Big government.
Shrink government at any cost? Think about it??
No, we don't believe in big government for the sake of big government. The real issue is not the size of government, but rather what government does and how well it does it. We believe in a smart and efficient government that is focused to the security of the US, the general welfare of the people, and the promotion of economic opportunity, and reversing income and wealth disparity. We believe in a government that does not shirk it's responsibility for protecting the environment, and protecting consumers from predatory corporations. We believe in a government that works for all of the people
Legalization of drugs
They have claimed that we want to just legalize all drugs. Bullshit!!
Wrong again. We are for the legalization and taxation of marijuana only. Other drugs should be decriminalized and their abuse should be treated as a public health issue.
Do you feel that the Left provides an accurate portrayal of the Right's positions, or do they also essentially provide "egregious and mendacious misrepresentations", or at least an incomplete and unfair view?
Second, do you feel that attacking people personally will change their mind in some way, and if not, what is the ultimate goal, at least in the short term?
.
2. No I do not expect to change the minds of those who are entrenched on the right. I do however hope to rally those who are on the side of social and economic justice- as well as those who are on the fence- to action. I must speak out because silence is surrender.
When a partisan can say "okay, I think that's a fair point, but...." or "I believe you're being reasonable, but I disagree", it's easier to take them more seriously. The binary, zero-sum, all-or-nothing approach just isn't credible. Life isn't black & white.
.
It seems to me that both ends of the spectrum utilize the tactic of distorting the views of the other to make them an easier target. That's why it's so difficult for me take so much of this seriously.1. My portrayal of the rights positions is absolutely accurate. I am not making it up. It is based on their own words that I have heard based on hundreds of encountersThank you. A couple of questions:So a winger from one end shoots a Congressman from the other end, and we on USMB take that serious and thought-provoking occasion to keep right on attacking, mocking & insulting each other. Pretty much immediately.
Tell me, what is the goal of non-stop attacks on the other side?
.
I am not answering the poll questions because the choices are woefully inadequate. Nothing there reflects my motivation -and yes I am an attack dog against the right, but it is not just a game of one-upmanship to me. My motive is to counter the egregious and mendacious misrepresentation of liberals and progressives. The right wingers are either deliberately and dishonestly dumbing down the issues, or they are really just to stupid to grasp their complexity. It is a fight for the heart and sole-and survival- of this country.... a country that is increasingly becoming a haven for wealthy, white, Christian, straight men to the exclusion and detriment of everyone else. Cases in point ......
Choice, Privacy and Reproductive Rights
Those on the right claim that we love abortion and want no restrictions on it at all. Not true
Liberals do not fight for abortion. We do not think that abortion is a good or pleasant thing. We fight for a woman right to have domain over their own bodies. I'll tell you what we also fight for. We fight for programs that will minimize unwanted pregnancies. We fight for access to birth control. We also fight for programs and policies that will provide supports and assistance to women and families so that they are more likely to carry an unexpected pregnancy to term instead of aborting it.
You can outlaw legal abortion but you can't stop women from having abortions and those abortions will be unsafe. We want to minimize the need for abortions, you want to criminalize it and create pain and suffering.
Jobs and the Economy.
The right claims that we don't care about jobs and prosperity which is absurd
We indeed want jobs and growth....for everyone , not just the privileged few. We want to reverse the obscene disparity in income and wealth. . We reject the failed supply side -trickle down economic theory that big give away s to the wealthy will benefit the masses. We understand that a strong middle class that can earn a living wage is the best medicine for a strong economy.
Criminal Justice.
They claim that we want to coddle criminals . Another misrepresentation
We support a fair and rational system of law enforcement and criminal justice. We support the police while recognizing the fact that some cops use excessive for and that more controls are needed to reign in some departments. We do not support mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses which clog our jails at taxpayers expense, and ruin lives.
Undocumented Aliens
They claim that we want open boarders and surrender the sovereignty of our country
We should and in fact have secured our boarders using practical, common sense means. Many undocumented people have been here many years and have built a life here. Their children know only this country. The work, put money back into the economy, and pay taxes. At the same time, they often must forgo government services and are unable to collect tax refunds. They should have a path to citizenship.
Obama Care
They claim that it is "collapsing under it's own weight" while doing everything that they can to undermine it. They call it socialized medicine and claim that the " free market": is the best solution to rising costs and lack of coverage
Any thinking person can see that the free market has failed miserably. In addition, we do not advocate people getting something for nothing. Everybody pays their way to the extent that they can, be we recognize that some people can't afford the full cost of medical insurance. It is not only detrimental to the individual to allow them to get sick, remain sick and die. It is detrimental to the economy and to a civil society as well.
LGBT Folks
On this they actually do not misrepresent us in claiming that we want equality and dignity for LGBT people. They are relentless cruel and abusive towards them and that is worthy of relentless attack.
Transsexuals, Gays and Lesbians are human beings and live among us. They have families and children. They hold jobs and pay taxes. They are not bothering you so get over it. Many conservatives also support LGBT rights as do various religious denominations. It is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. It is those who believe in equality and value diversity vs. the bigots who are still living in the last century and wish to once again create a shadow society and all of the social ills that would breed.
The Social Safety Net
They malign those who find themselves in need of assistance and claim that it is their own fault that they are poor. I have a major problem with that and will attack them for it.
Yes we have people who are welfare. Public assistance is a by product of capitalism . As the free market economy that conservative love so much expands or contracts due to market forces and world events, so does the need for labor. Public assistance keeps many of those people afloat so that when they are need in the workforce that are healthy and ready to work again. Conservatives rail against socialism but don't understand that it is welfare to supports capitalism. You can't have it both ways.
Big government.
Shrink government at any cost? Think about it??
No, we don't believe in big government for the sake of big government. The real issue is not the size of government, but rather what government does and how well it does it. We believe in a smart and efficient government that is focused to the security of the US, the general welfare of the people, and the promotion of economic opportunity, and reversing income and wealth disparity. We believe in a government that does not shirk it's responsibility for protecting the environment, and protecting consumers from predatory corporations. We believe in a government that works for all of the people
Legalization of drugs
They have claimed that we want to just legalize all drugs. Bullshit!!
Wrong again. We are for the legalization and taxation of marijuana only. Other drugs should be decriminalized and their abuse should be treated as a public health issue.
Do you feel that the Left provides an accurate portrayal of the Right's positions, or do they also essentially provide "egregious and mendacious misrepresentations", or at least an incomplete and unfair view?
Second, do you feel that attacking people personally will change their mind in some way, and if not, what is the ultimate goal, at least in the short term?
.
2. No I do not expect to change the minds of those who are entrenched on the right. I do however hope to rally those who are on the side of social and economic justice- as well as those who are on the fence- to action. I must speak out because silence is surrender.
When a partisan can say "okay, I think that's a fair point, but...." or "I believe you're being reasonable, but I disagree", it's easier to take them more seriously. The binary, zero-sum, all-or-nothing approach just isn't credible. Life isn't black & white.
.
Awesome. Which of the "conservatives" who have engaged you in adult discussion in this thread have done that? You clearly find them to be more serious than the childish and nasty progressives.
Got anyone you'd like to put forth as an example that someone like me could follow? Ray maybe? Dark wind? Chris L?
Dream ON.
It seems to me that both ends of the spectrum utilize the tactic of distorting the views of the other to make them an easier target. That's why it's so difficult for me take so much of this seriously.1. My portrayal of the rights positions is absolutely accurate. I am not making it up. It is based on their own words that I have heard based on hundreds of encountersThank you. A couple of questions:So a winger from one end shoots a Congressman from the other end, and we on USMB take that serious and thought-provoking occasion to keep right on attacking, mocking & insulting each other. Pretty much immediately.
Tell me, what is the goal of non-stop attacks on the other side?
.
I am not answering the poll questions because the choices are woefully inadequate. Nothing there reflects my motivation -and yes I am an attack dog against the right, but it is not just a game of one-upmanship to me. My motive is to counter the egregious and mendacious misrepresentation of liberals and progressives. The right wingers are either deliberately and dishonestly dumbing down the issues, or they are really just to stupid to grasp their complexity. It is a fight for the heart and sole-and survival- of this country.... a country that is increasingly becoming a haven for wealthy, white, Christian, straight men to the exclusion and detriment of everyone else. Cases in point ......
Choice, Privacy and Reproductive Rights
Those on the right claim that we love abortion and want no restrictions on it at all. Not true
Liberals do not fight for abortion. We do not think that abortion is a good or pleasant thing. We fight for a woman right to have domain over their own bodies. I'll tell you what we also fight for. We fight for programs that will minimize unwanted pregnancies. We fight for access to birth control. We also fight for programs and policies that will provide supports and assistance to women and families so that they are more likely to carry an unexpected pregnancy to term instead of aborting it.
You can outlaw legal abortion but you can't stop women from having abortions and those abortions will be unsafe. We want to minimize the need for abortions, you want to criminalize it and create pain and suffering.
Jobs and the Economy.
The right claims that we don't care about jobs and prosperity which is absurd
We indeed want jobs and growth....for everyone , not just the privileged few. We want to reverse the obscene disparity in income and wealth. . We reject the failed supply side -trickle down economic theory that big give away s to the wealthy will benefit the masses. We understand that a strong middle class that can earn a living wage is the best medicine for a strong economy.
Criminal Justice.
They claim that we want to coddle criminals . Another misrepresentation
We support a fair and rational system of law enforcement and criminal justice. We support the police while recognizing the fact that some cops use excessive for and that more controls are needed to reign in some departments. We do not support mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses which clog our jails at taxpayers expense, and ruin lives.
Undocumented Aliens
They claim that we want open boarders and surrender the sovereignty of our country
We should and in fact have secured our boarders using practical, common sense means. Many undocumented people have been here many years and have built a life here. Their children know only this country. The work, put money back into the economy, and pay taxes. At the same time, they often must forgo government services and are unable to collect tax refunds. They should have a path to citizenship.
Obama Care
They claim that it is "collapsing under it's own weight" while doing everything that they can to undermine it. They call it socialized medicine and claim that the " free market": is the best solution to rising costs and lack of coverage
Any thinking person can see that the free market has failed miserably. In addition, we do not advocate people getting something for nothing. Everybody pays their way to the extent that they can, be we recognize that some people can't afford the full cost of medical insurance. It is not only detrimental to the individual to allow them to get sick, remain sick and die. It is detrimental to the economy and to a civil society as well.
LGBT Folks
On this they actually do not misrepresent us in claiming that we want equality and dignity for LGBT people. They are relentless cruel and abusive towards them and that is worthy of relentless attack.
Transsexuals, Gays and Lesbians are human beings and live among us. They have families and children. They hold jobs and pay taxes. They are not bothering you so get over it. Many conservatives also support LGBT rights as do various religious denominations. It is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. It is those who believe in equality and value diversity vs. the bigots who are still living in the last century and wish to once again create a shadow society and all of the social ills that would breed.
The Social Safety Net
They malign those who find themselves in need of assistance and claim that it is their own fault that they are poor. I have a major problem with that and will attack them for it.
Yes we have people who are welfare. Public assistance is a by product of capitalism . As the free market economy that conservative love so much expands or contracts due to market forces and world events, so does the need for labor. Public assistance keeps many of those people afloat so that when they are need in the workforce that are healthy and ready to work again. Conservatives rail against socialism but don't understand that it is welfare to supports capitalism. You can't have it both ways.
Big government.
Shrink government at any cost? Think about it??
No, we don't believe in big government for the sake of big government. The real issue is not the size of government, but rather what government does and how well it does it. We believe in a smart and efficient government that is focused to the security of the US, the general welfare of the people, and the promotion of economic opportunity, and reversing income and wealth disparity. We believe in a government that does not shirk it's responsibility for protecting the environment, and protecting consumers from predatory corporations. We believe in a government that works for all of the people
Legalization of drugs
They have claimed that we want to just legalize all drugs. Bullshit!!
Wrong again. We are for the legalization and taxation of marijuana only. Other drugs should be decriminalized and their abuse should be treated as a public health issue.
Do you feel that the Left provides an accurate portrayal of the Right's positions, or do they also essentially provide "egregious and mendacious misrepresentations", or at least an incomplete and unfair view?
Second, do you feel that attacking people personally will change their mind in some way, and if not, what is the ultimate goal, at least in the short term?
.
2. No I do not expect to change the minds of those who are entrenched on the right. I do however hope to rally those who are on the side of social and economic justice- as well as those who are on the fence- to action. I must speak out because silence is surrender.
When a partisan can say "okay, I think that's a fair point, but...." or "I believe you're being reasonable, but I disagree", it's easier to take them more seriously. The binary, zero-sum, all-or-nothing approach just isn't credible. Life isn't black & white.
.
Awesome. Which of the "conservatives" who have engaged you in adult discussion in this thread have done that? You clearly find them to be more serious than the childish and nasty progressives.
Got anyone you'd like to put forth as an example that someone like me could follow? Ray maybe? Dark wind? Chris L?
It seems to me that both ends of the spectrum utilize the tactic of distorting the views of the other to make them an easier target. That's why it's so difficult for me take so much of this seriously.1. My portrayal of the rights positions is absolutely accurate. I am not making it up. It is based on their own words that I have heard based on hundreds of encountersThank you. A couple of questions:So a winger from one end shoots a Congressman from the other end, and we on USMB take that serious and thought-provoking occasion to keep right on attacking, mocking & insulting each other. Pretty much immediately.
Tell me, what is the goal of non-stop attacks on the other side?
.
I am not answering the poll questions because the choices are woefully inadequate. Nothing there reflects my motivation -and yes I am an attack dog against the right, but it is not just a game of one-upmanship to me. My motive is to counter the egregious and mendacious misrepresentation of liberals and progressives. The right wingers are either deliberately and dishonestly dumbing down the issues, or they are really just to stupid to grasp their complexity. It is a fight for the heart and sole-and survival- of this country.... a country that is increasingly becoming a haven for wealthy, white, Christian, straight men to the exclusion and detriment of everyone else. Cases in point ......
Choice, Privacy and Reproductive Rights
Those on the right claim that we love abortion and want no restrictions on it at all. Not true
Liberals do not fight for abortion. We do not think that abortion is a good or pleasant thing. We fight for a woman right to have domain over their own bodies. I'll tell you what we also fight for. We fight for programs that will minimize unwanted pregnancies. We fight for access to birth control. We also fight for programs and policies that will provide supports and assistance to women and families so that they are more likely to carry an unexpected pregnancy to term instead of aborting it.
You can outlaw legal abortion but you can't stop women from having abortions and those abortions will be unsafe. We want to minimize the need for abortions, you want to criminalize it and create pain and suffering.
Jobs and the Economy.
The right claims that we don't care about jobs and prosperity which is absurd
We indeed want jobs and growth....for everyone , not just the privileged few. We want to reverse the obscene disparity in income and wealth. . We reject the failed supply side -trickle down economic theory that big give away s to the wealthy will benefit the masses. We understand that a strong middle class that can earn a living wage is the best medicine for a strong economy.
Criminal Justice.
They claim that we want to coddle criminals . Another misrepresentation
We support a fair and rational system of law enforcement and criminal justice. We support the police while recognizing the fact that some cops use excessive for and that more controls are needed to reign in some departments. We do not support mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses which clog our jails at taxpayers expense, and ruin lives.
Undocumented Aliens
They claim that we want open boarders and surrender the sovereignty of our country
We should and in fact have secured our boarders using practical, common sense means. Many undocumented people have been here many years and have built a life here. Their children know only this country. The work, put money back into the economy, and pay taxes. At the same time, they often must forgo government services and are unable to collect tax refunds. They should have a path to citizenship.
Obama Care
They claim that it is "collapsing under it's own weight" while doing everything that they can to undermine it. They call it socialized medicine and claim that the " free market": is the best solution to rising costs and lack of coverage
Any thinking person can see that the free market has failed miserably. In addition, we do not advocate people getting something for nothing. Everybody pays their way to the extent that they can, be we recognize that some people can't afford the full cost of medical insurance. It is not only detrimental to the individual to allow them to get sick, remain sick and die. It is detrimental to the economy and to a civil society as well.
LGBT Folks
On this they actually do not misrepresent us in claiming that we want equality and dignity for LGBT people. They are relentless cruel and abusive towards them and that is worthy of relentless attack.
Transsexuals, Gays and Lesbians are human beings and live among us. They have families and children. They hold jobs and pay taxes. They are not bothering you so get over it. Many conservatives also support LGBT rights as do various religious denominations. It is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. It is those who believe in equality and value diversity vs. the bigots who are still living in the last century and wish to once again create a shadow society and all of the social ills that would breed.
The Social Safety Net
They malign those who find themselves in need of assistance and claim that it is their own fault that they are poor. I have a major problem with that and will attack them for it.
Yes we have people who are welfare. Public assistance is a by product of capitalism . As the free market economy that conservative love so much expands or contracts due to market forces and world events, so does the need for labor. Public assistance keeps many of those people afloat so that when they are need in the workforce that are healthy and ready to work again. Conservatives rail against socialism but don't understand that it is welfare to supports capitalism. You can't have it both ways.
Big government.
Shrink government at any cost? Think about it??
No, we don't believe in big government for the sake of big government. The real issue is not the size of government, but rather what government does and how well it does it. We believe in a smart and efficient government that is focused to the security of the US, the general welfare of the people, and the promotion of economic opportunity, and reversing income and wealth disparity. We believe in a government that does not shirk it's responsibility for protecting the environment, and protecting consumers from predatory corporations. We believe in a government that works for all of the people
Legalization of drugs
They have claimed that we want to just legalize all drugs. Bullshit!!
Wrong again. We are for the legalization and taxation of marijuana only. Other drugs should be decriminalized and their abuse should be treated as a public health issue.
Do you feel that the Left provides an accurate portrayal of the Right's positions, or do they also essentially provide "egregious and mendacious misrepresentations", or at least an incomplete and unfair view?
Second, do you feel that attacking people personally will change their mind in some way, and if not, what is the ultimate goal, at least in the short term?
.
2. No I do not expect to change the minds of those who are entrenched on the right. I do however hope to rally those who are on the side of social and economic justice- as well as those who are on the fence- to action. I must speak out because silence is surrender.
When a partisan can say "okay, I think that's a fair point, but...." or "I believe you're being reasonable, but I disagree", it's easier to take them more seriously. The binary, zero-sum, all-or-nothing approach just isn't credible. Life isn't black & white.
.
Awesome. Which of the "conservatives" who have engaged you in adult discussion in this thread have done that? You clearly find them to be more serious than the childish and nasty progressives.
Got anyone you'd like to put forth as an example that someone like me could follow? Ray maybe? Dark wind? Chris L?
They'll punch themselves out at some point, declare victory and go away.It seems to me that both ends of the spectrum utilize the tactic of distorting the views of the other to make them an easier target. That's why it's so difficult for me take so much of this seriously.1. My portrayal of the rights positions is absolutely accurate. I am not making it up. It is based on their own words that I have heard based on hundreds of encountersThank you. A couple of questions:I am not answering the poll questions because the choices are woefully inadequate. Nothing there reflects my motivation -and yes I am an attack dog against the right, but it is not just a game of one-upmanship to me. My motive is to counter the egregious and mendacious misrepresentation of liberals and progressives. The right wingers are either deliberately and dishonestly dumbing down the issues, or they are really just to stupid to grasp their complexity. It is a fight for the heart and sole-and survival- of this country.... a country that is increasingly becoming a haven for wealthy, white, Christian, straight men to the exclusion and detriment of everyone else. Cases in point ......
Choice, Privacy and Reproductive Rights
Those on the right claim that we love abortion and want no restrictions on it at all. Not true
Liberals do not fight for abortion. We do not think that abortion is a good or pleasant thing. We fight for a woman right to have domain over their own bodies. I'll tell you what we also fight for. We fight for programs that will minimize unwanted pregnancies. We fight for access to birth control. We also fight for programs and policies that will provide supports and assistance to women and families so that they are more likely to carry an unexpected pregnancy to term instead of aborting it.
You can outlaw legal abortion but you can't stop women from having abortions and those abortions will be unsafe. We want to minimize the need for abortions, you want to criminalize it and create pain and suffering.
Jobs and the Economy.
The right claims that we don't care about jobs and prosperity which is absurd
We indeed want jobs and growth....for everyone , not just the privileged few. We want to reverse the obscene disparity in income and wealth. . We reject the failed supply side -trickle down economic theory that big give away s to the wealthy will benefit the masses. We understand that a strong middle class that can earn a living wage is the best medicine for a strong economy.
Criminal Justice.
They claim that we want to coddle criminals . Another misrepresentation
We support a fair and rational system of law enforcement and criminal justice. We support the police while recognizing the fact that some cops use excessive for and that more controls are needed to reign in some departments. We do not support mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses which clog our jails at taxpayers expense, and ruin lives.
Undocumented Aliens
They claim that we want open boarders and surrender the sovereignty of our country
We should and in fact have secured our boarders using practical, common sense means. Many undocumented people have been here many years and have built a life here. Their children know only this country. The work, put money back into the economy, and pay taxes. At the same time, they often must forgo government services and are unable to collect tax refunds. They should have a path to citizenship.
Obama Care
They claim that it is "collapsing under it's own weight" while doing everything that they can to undermine it. They call it socialized medicine and claim that the " free market": is the best solution to rising costs and lack of coverage
Any thinking person can see that the free market has failed miserably. In addition, we do not advocate people getting something for nothing. Everybody pays their way to the extent that they can, be we recognize that some people can't afford the full cost of medical insurance. It is not only detrimental to the individual to allow them to get sick, remain sick and die. It is detrimental to the economy and to a civil society as well.
LGBT Folks
On this they actually do not misrepresent us in claiming that we want equality and dignity for LGBT people. They are relentless cruel and abusive towards them and that is worthy of relentless attack.
Transsexuals, Gays and Lesbians are human beings and live among us. They have families and children. They hold jobs and pay taxes. They are not bothering you so get over it. Many conservatives also support LGBT rights as do various religious denominations. It is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. It is those who believe in equality and value diversity vs. the bigots who are still living in the last century and wish to once again create a shadow society and all of the social ills that would breed.
The Social Safety Net
They malign those who find themselves in need of assistance and claim that it is their own fault that they are poor. I have a major problem with that and will attack them for it.
Yes we have people who are welfare. Public assistance is a by product of capitalism . As the free market economy that conservative love so much expands or contracts due to market forces and world events, so does the need for labor. Public assistance keeps many of those people afloat so that when they are need in the workforce that are healthy and ready to work again. Conservatives rail against socialism but don't understand that it is welfare to supports capitalism. You can't have it both ways.
Big government.
Shrink government at any cost? Think about it??
No, we don't believe in big government for the sake of big government. The real issue is not the size of government, but rather what government does and how well it does it. We believe in a smart and efficient government that is focused to the security of the US, the general welfare of the people, and the promotion of economic opportunity, and reversing income and wealth disparity. We believe in a government that does not shirk it's responsibility for protecting the environment, and protecting consumers from predatory corporations. We believe in a government that works for all of the people
Legalization of drugs
They have claimed that we want to just legalize all drugs. Bullshit!!
Wrong again. We are for the legalization and taxation of marijuana only. Other drugs should be decriminalized and their abuse should be treated as a public health issue.
Do you feel that the Left provides an accurate portrayal of the Right's positions, or do they also essentially provide "egregious and mendacious misrepresentations", or at least an incomplete and unfair view?
Second, do you feel that attacking people personally will change their mind in some way, and if not, what is the ultimate goal, at least in the short term?
.
2. No I do not expect to change the minds of those who are entrenched on the right. I do however hope to rally those who are on the side of social and economic justice- as well as those who are on the fence- to action. I must speak out because silence is surrender.
When a partisan can say "okay, I think that's a fair point, but...." or "I believe you're being reasonable, but I disagree", it's easier to take them more seriously. The binary, zero-sum, all-or-nothing approach just isn't credible. Life isn't black & white.
.
Awesome. Which of the "conservatives" who have engaged you in adult discussion in this thread have done that? You clearly find them to be more serious than the childish and nasty progressives.
Got anyone you'd like to put forth as an example that someone like me could follow? Ray maybe? Dark wind? Chris L?
You don't know the meaning of "adult" or "discussion." Go back to the flamer zone where you belong!
No, it's going to be changed. It's very undemocratic and the majority doesn't like to - lose.She won, she got the most votes, but Trump was appointed by the EC anyway. Very undemocratic.why isnt she president then?.....did she win or lose?....you try again....When you get the most votes - you didn't lose. Do try again.the election wasnt stolen....it was lost by one hillary clinton....next time run someone who at least has likability factor on the positive side and doesnt have the baggage and taint she had........The election was stolen. The majority did not get their way. There is no other rational way to look at it, Snowflakes, so start dealing with the fact that the majority hates this asshole in the Oval Office (a day here or there) and did not want him or his host of criminals running the place. What can be done to undo him (he's pretty good at it himself) will be done. Count on it.
Not true and you know it.......or if you don't then learn it. A President is voted into office by the Electoral vote, that is based on the voters in their state/district........always has been & always will be.
This honest liberal gets it, and about 3:30 he makes an interesting point, that "progressives" don't debate any more. They just toss out names and insults, because it has worked so well for so long.Requires thinking at a higher level than base instinct and raw emotion. Pretty much an evolutionary dead end for progressives.Fascinating how I've had a few interesting conversations on this thread, and none of them have been with the "progressives".Mac is sitting on a fence made of cake, and trying to have and eat it too.
They've all just tried to make it about me, illustrating the point of my thread perfectly.
The conservatives have tossed out some interesting ideas, even though they know I disagree with them on a majority of issues.
That happens pretty consistently here. There's just something about "progressives", they just don't like being civil.
.
.
I could have a better debate with the dog than most here including you, Mac in the middle.
Typical lefty, a legend in your own mind.
In a democracy the majority rules. The majority isn't ruling in this case. That is a problem in our democratic republic that needs to be - fixed.She won, she got the most votes, but Trump was appointed by the EC anyway. Very undemocratic.why isnt she president then?.....did she win or lose?....you try again....When you get the most votes - you didn't lose. Do try again.the election wasnt stolen....it was lost by one hillary clinton....next time run someone who at least has likability factor on the positive side and doesnt have the baggage and taint she had........The election was stolen. The majority did not get their way. There is no other rational way to look at it, Snowflakes, so start dealing with the fact that the majority hates this asshole in the Oval Office (a day here or there) and did not want him or his host of criminals running the place. What can be done to undo him (he's pretty good at it himself) will be done. Count on it.
We are not a Democracy, we are a Republic.
You and I get into an argument about who the best pool player is, so we agree to a game of 8-ball to determine who is right.
I break, and get two solids in and a stripe. Because of the placement of the striped balls, I choose stripes.
As I knock my balls into the pocket, I accidentally knock in another solid ball. I miss the eighth ball and it's your turn. You knock in all the solid balls and then the eight ball to win the game. But I protest saying I am the better player because I knocked in more balls than you did. Would you agree with that?
Of course not. We were not playing to see who could knock the most balls in, we were playing to see who could knock the most selected balls in.
If we had a popular vote race, Trump would have spent much more time in blue states to get every last vote. But he chose red and swing states to capture the most electoral votes. You can't say Hillary won anything because neither were after popular votes. They both played by the same rules, after the same goals, and Hil-Liar lost.
Yes, all the people I love and care about live here. What's your point? I mean, I can admire my neighbor's new car, but I can't steal it, I can only try to get one of my own.
yes, the electoral college DOES stop that. A great example is the Reform Party. Ross Perot, despite being batshit crazy, touched a chord. But because the EC made it impossible for him to win (the worst case scenario would be a three way split in the EC which would have tossed the election into Congress. So by 1996, they had lost half their enthusiasm, and by 2000, they were a bag full of money that Pat Buchanan could steal.
Then shouldn't the Republicans be trying to win over those cities?
Because since 1968, the GOP has been running on "The Scary Darkies want your stuff" platform, and stupid fucks like you keep voting for it. ANd you scratch your big monkey cranium wondering why your boss just cancelled your health insurance and you can't get a better job.
What's my point? My point is if it's so much better in other places, move there instead of bitching about how Americans do things here. We are not Europe and never will be. This isn't 1950.
No, the EC would not have done that. The electors vote how the majority in their state voted. That's what they are supposed to do. Perot knocked himself out by dropping out of the race and reentering it. He could have won the EC no more or less than the other two candidates.
In a democracy the majority rules. The majority isn't ruling in this case. That is a problem in our democratic republic that needs to be - fixed.She won, she got the most votes, but Trump was appointed by the EC anyway. Very undemocratic.why isnt she president then?.....did she win or lose?....you try again....When you get the most votes - you didn't lose. Do try again.the election wasnt stolen....it was lost by one hillary clinton....next time run someone who at least has likability factor on the positive side and doesnt have the baggage and taint she had........
We are not a Democracy, we are a Republic.
You and I get into an argument about who the best pool player is, so we agree to a game of 8-ball to determine who is right.
I break, and get two solids in and a stripe. Because of the placement of the striped balls, I choose stripes.
As I knock my balls into the pocket, I accidentally knock in another solid ball. I miss the eighth ball and it's your turn. You knock in all the solid balls and then the eight ball to win the game. But I protest saying I am the better player because I knocked in more balls than you did. Would you agree with that?
Of course not. We were not playing to see who could knock the most balls in, we were playing to see who could knock the most selected balls in.
If we had a popular vote race, Trump would have spent much more time in blue states to get every last vote. But he chose red and swing states to capture the most electoral votes. You can't say Hillary won anything because neither were after popular votes. They both played by the same rules, after the same goals, and Hil-Liar lost.
We know how it works, even why it was done, but it's simply wrong.
Actually, we are probably closer to Europe than you want. Once it's clear that trump has no ideas that anyone wants, we can discuss fixing the real problems.
Stealing an election only gets you so far.
Go back and read what I said and then get someone to explain the big words to you.
This honest liberal gets it, and about 3:30 he makes an interesting point, that "progressives" don't debate any more. They just toss out names and insults, because it has worked so well for so long.Requires thinking at a higher level than base instinct and raw emotion. Pretty much an evolutionary dead end for progressives.Fascinating how I've had a few interesting conversations on this thread, and none of them have been with the "progressives".
They've all just tried to make it about me, illustrating the point of my thread perfectly.
The conservatives have tossed out some interesting ideas, even though they know I disagree with them on a majority of issues.
That happens pretty consistently here. There's just something about "progressives", they just don't like being civil.
.
.
I could have a better debate with the dog than most here including you, Mac in the middle.
Typical lefty, a legend in your own mind.
That statement is - entirely accurate. Those here are unable to debate. They can rant and repeat dogma (Korean girl can copy and paste) and that's about it.
No, the Republicans should not try to get more votes out of the cities, the Republicans should try to get more EC votes which is the way we've always done things here. So instead of asking if the Republicans should try to get more city votes, wouldn't the better question be shouldn't the Democrats try to get more non-city votes to win the EC?
It seems to me that both ends of the spectrum utilize the tactic of distorting the views of the other to make them an easier target. That's why it's so difficult for me take so much of this seriously.1. My portrayal of the rights positions is absolutely accurate. I am not making it up. It is based on their own words that I have heard based on hundreds of encountersThank you. A couple of questions:I am not answering the poll questions because the choices are woefully inadequate. Nothing there reflects my motivation -and yes I am an attack dog against the right, but it is not just a game of one-upmanship to me. My motive is to counter the egregious and mendacious misrepresentation of liberals and progressives. The right wingers are either deliberately and dishonestly dumbing down the issues, or they are really just to stupid to grasp their complexity. It is a fight for the heart and sole-and survival- of this country.... a country that is increasingly becoming a haven for wealthy, white, Christian, straight men to the exclusion and detriment of everyone else. Cases in point ......
Choice, Privacy and Reproductive Rights
Those on the right claim that we love abortion and want no restrictions on it at all. Not true
Liberals do not fight for abortion. We do not think that abortion is a good or pleasant thing. We fight for a woman right to have domain over their own bodies. I'll tell you what we also fight for. We fight for programs that will minimize unwanted pregnancies. We fight for access to birth control. We also fight for programs and policies that will provide supports and assistance to women and families so that they are more likely to carry an unexpected pregnancy to term instead of aborting it.
You can outlaw legal abortion but you can't stop women from having abortions and those abortions will be unsafe. We want to minimize the need for abortions, you want to criminalize it and create pain and suffering.
Jobs and the Economy.
The right claims that we don't care about jobs and prosperity which is absurd
We indeed want jobs and growth....for everyone , not just the privileged few. We want to reverse the obscene disparity in income and wealth. . We reject the failed supply side -trickle down economic theory that big give away s to the wealthy will benefit the masses. We understand that a strong middle class that can earn a living wage is the best medicine for a strong economy.
Criminal Justice.
They claim that we want to coddle criminals . Another misrepresentation
We support a fair and rational system of law enforcement and criminal justice. We support the police while recognizing the fact that some cops use excessive for and that more controls are needed to reign in some departments. We do not support mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses which clog our jails at taxpayers expense, and ruin lives.
Undocumented Aliens
They claim that we want open boarders and surrender the sovereignty of our country
We should and in fact have secured our boarders using practical, common sense means. Many undocumented people have been here many years and have built a life here. Their children know only this country. The work, put money back into the economy, and pay taxes. At the same time, they often must forgo government services and are unable to collect tax refunds. They should have a path to citizenship.
Obama Care
They claim that it is "collapsing under it's own weight" while doing everything that they can to undermine it. They call it socialized medicine and claim that the " free market": is the best solution to rising costs and lack of coverage
Any thinking person can see that the free market has failed miserably. In addition, we do not advocate people getting something for nothing. Everybody pays their way to the extent that they can, be we recognize that some people can't afford the full cost of medical insurance. It is not only detrimental to the individual to allow them to get sick, remain sick and die. It is detrimental to the economy and to a civil society as well.
LGBT Folks
On this they actually do not misrepresent us in claiming that we want equality and dignity for LGBT people. They are relentless cruel and abusive towards them and that is worthy of relentless attack.
Transsexuals, Gays and Lesbians are human beings and live among us. They have families and children. They hold jobs and pay taxes. They are not bothering you so get over it. Many conservatives also support LGBT rights as do various religious denominations. It is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. It is those who believe in equality and value diversity vs. the bigots who are still living in the last century and wish to once again create a shadow society and all of the social ills that would breed.
The Social Safety Net
They malign those who find themselves in need of assistance and claim that it is their own fault that they are poor. I have a major problem with that and will attack them for it.
Yes we have people who are welfare. Public assistance is a by product of capitalism . As the free market economy that conservative love so much expands or contracts due to market forces and world events, so does the need for labor. Public assistance keeps many of those people afloat so that when they are need in the workforce that are healthy and ready to work again. Conservatives rail against socialism but don't understand that it is welfare to supports capitalism. You can't have it both ways.
Big government.
Shrink government at any cost? Think about it??
No, we don't believe in big government for the sake of big government. The real issue is not the size of government, but rather what government does and how well it does it. We believe in a smart and efficient government that is focused to the security of the US, the general welfare of the people, and the promotion of economic opportunity, and reversing income and wealth disparity. We believe in a government that does not shirk it's responsibility for protecting the environment, and protecting consumers from predatory corporations. We believe in a government that works for all of the people
Legalization of drugs
They have claimed that we want to just legalize all drugs. Bullshit!!
Wrong again. We are for the legalization and taxation of marijuana only. Other drugs should be decriminalized and their abuse should be treated as a public health issue.
Do you feel that the Left provides an accurate portrayal of the Right's positions, or do they also essentially provide "egregious and mendacious misrepresentations", or at least an incomplete and unfair view?
Second, do you feel that attacking people personally will change their mind in some way, and if not, what is the ultimate goal, at least in the short term?
.
2. No I do not expect to change the minds of those who are entrenched on the right. I do however hope to rally those who are on the side of social and economic justice- as well as those who are on the fence- to action. I must speak out because silence is surrender.
When a partisan can say "okay, I think that's a fair point, but...." or "I believe you're being reasonable, but I disagree", it's easier to take them more seriously. The binary, zero-sum, all-or-nothing approach just isn't credible. Life isn't black & white.
.
Awesome. Which of the "conservatives" who have engaged you in adult discussion in this thread have done that? You clearly find them to be more serious than the childish and nasty progressives.
Got anyone you'd like to put forth as an example that someone like me could follow? Ray maybe? Dark wind? Chris L?
And let's look at your "contributions" to this forum. Lol!
I indeed don't know how to "debate".
