POLL: Open the economy up and go back to work - Stay home and shutdown

[Sun Devil 92]

Forget it. We're already going to be the new COVID-19 epicenter of the world. We'll just have to brace up and get through the depression.

And how do you figure ?

Or are you talking about New York.

The US. We got too many new infections and the death toll will rise dramatically. New York will lead the way I suppose. NYC has 19,200 infected alone right now.

Other states are doing fine.

Where I live people are already getting ready to tell the governor to fuck herself.

 

[james bond]

Forget it. We're already going to be the new COVID-19 epicenter of the world. We'll just have to brace up and get through the depression.

And how do you figure ?

Or are you talking about New York.

The US. We got too many new infections and the death toll will rise dramatically. New York will lead the way I suppose. NYC has 19,200 infected alone right now.

Other states are doing fine.

Where I live people are already getting ready to tell the governor to fuck herself.

That sounds low. How much testing has been going on? My neighborhood had 2 deaths, city has 4 total. We just started free drive-thru testing today (by Google's Verily), but it will be extremely limited to those who are mildly sick but don't have corona, health care workers, over age 60, or have underlying conditions.

 

[MisterBeale]

COVID-19: Our Leaders Are Terrified. Not of the Virus — of Us

COVID-19: Our Leaders Are Terrified. Not of the Virus — of Us

Governments will try to conceal for a little longer the fact that capitalism is entirely incapable of solving the very crises it has created, writes Jonathan Cook. By JonathanCook Jonathan-Cook.net You can almost smell the fear-laden sweat oozing from the pores of television broadcasts and soci

consortiumnews.com

". . . . The bail-outs did not fix capitalism, they simply delayed for a while longer its inevitable collapse.

“The story they have been telling us for 40 years or more about harsh economic realities is about to be exposed as a self-serving fairytale.”

Capitalism is still structurally flawed. Its dependence on ever-expanding consumption cannot answer the environmental crises necessarily entailed by such consumption. And economies that are being artificially “grown,” at the same time as resources deplete, ultimately create inflated bubbles of nothingness — bubbles that will soon burst again.

Survival Mode

Indeed, the virus is illustrative of one of those structural flaws — an early warning of the wider environmental emergency, and a reminder that capitalism, by intertwining economic greed with environmental greed, has ensured the two spheres collapse in tandem.

Pandemics like this one are the outcome of our destruction of natural habitats — to grow cattle for burgers, to plant palm trees for cakes and biscuits, to log forests for flat-pack furniture. Animals are being driven into ever closer proximity, forcing diseases to cross the species barrier. And then in a world of low-cost flights, disease finds an easy and rapid transit to every corner of the planet.. . . "

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Forget it. We're already going to be the new COVID-19 epicenter of the world. We'll just have to brace up and get through the depression.

And how do you figure ?

Or are you talking about New York.

The US. We got too many new infections and the death toll will rise dramatically. New York will lead the way I suppose. NYC has 19,200 infected alone right now.

Other states are doing fine.

Where I live people are already getting ready to tell the governor to fuck herself.

That sounds low. How much testing has been going on? My neighborhood had 2 deaths, city has 4 total. We just started free drive-thru testing today (by Google's Verily), but it will be extremely limited to those who are mildly sick but don't have corona, health care workers, over age 60, or have underlying conditions.

What sounds low ?

New York is fast approaching 30,000 cases. Almost 1/2 of the country cases total.

 

[james bond]

Forget it. We're already going to be the new COVID-19 epicenter of the world. We'll just have to brace up and get through the depression.

And how do you figure ?

Or are you talking about New York.

The US. We got too many new infections and the death toll will rise dramatically. New York will lead the way I suppose. NYC has 19,200 infected alone right now.

Other states are doing fine.

Where I live people are already getting ready to tell the governor to fuck herself.

That sounds low. How much testing has been going on? My neighborhood had 2 deaths, city has 4 total. We just started free drive-thru testing today (by Google's Verily), but it will be extremely limited to those who are mildly sick but don't have corona, health care workers, over age 60, or have underlying conditions.

What sounds low ?

New York is fast approaching 30,000 cases. Almost 1/2 of the country cases total.

I just tried the Verily and don't qualify for free testing right now. If anyone thinks they got it, then they don't qualify. They want the rest of the population. In your state. What is the governor saying and why are you upset? How much testing has gone on where you live?

 

[toobfreak]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

The answer is simple. Major sporting and other events all voluntarily closed of their own volition. As people learned more about the virus and/or it came closer to their area, they quit patronizing public establishments, so those places would have naturally gone to delivery only. Many businesses voluntarily closed as they felt the need or business slowed. You get the idea. The free market adjusts.

Then government stepped in and had to impress up how they were doing their part. In my state, 90% of the state is at very low risk. Liquor stores could have simply had employees wear latex gloves to avoid contact and limit the number of people in at a time or simply taken your order and transacted the purchase over the phone and had you come pick it up at the door. You know, innovate. Be creative, the antithisis of government. Many people rely on booze to help with pain or sleeping.

Instead our jackass governor took it upon himself to close all liquor stores STATE WIDE two weeks ago.

Yet they still deliver the mail. Who knows how many hands it has gone through or who has handled it. And not just the real mail, they still cram my box full of all those unnecessary flyers and sales ads.

Exactly. Governors and mayors can make some calls/exceptions to walk and chew gum. Open for business yet still use good hygiene to not spread the virus. Trump will toss the economy over the fence to the governors around Easter. Reopening will be a process, but the CDC needs to get that vaccine before the virus hits again in the fall.

Don't expect a vaccine until at least well into 2021.

 

[U2Edge]

Forget it. We're already going to be the new COVID-19 epicenter of the world. We'll just have to brace up and get through the depression.

And how do you figure ?

Or are you talking about New York.

The US. We got too many new infections and the death toll will rise dramatically. New York will lead the way I suppose. NYC has 19,200 infected alone right now.

Other states are doing fine.

Where I live people are already getting ready to tell the governor to fuck herself.

Its not about how you're doing today, its about how you'll be doing 5 weeks from now. How many more places around the country will be like New York City in 5 weeks? I don't mean in number of cases, but in lack of the ability to care for the number cases they have. New York State is currently short 26,000 respirators. Do you know how many respirators your county or state has?

 

[Nosmo King]

The answer to that question is above my pay grade. I’ll let the experts decide what’s best.

Which experts? Does it make sense to ignore the advice of medical experts during a pandemic, or listen to economists driven by a political agenda? Which group of experts should be advising Trump?

 

[U2Edge]

W

What are we going to do in 6 months when the next flu season starts, shut down again? We have swung from one extreme to the other. Those at high risk should isolate, the rest of the country should get back to work. That's my opinion.

We have flu vaccines.

Get one.

Yet despite those vaccines we still lose thousands every year and don't lose our shit over it.
The vaccines are no guarantee either as they are developed each year with the expected strains which are not always in line with actual strains that may spread in any particular year.
A clue.
Get one.

1. This is not the FLU.
Death rate is calculated by deaths divided by infections. Flu at best has a .1% death rate. Coronavirus death rates depending on state or country are anywhere between 3% and 10%. So 30 to 100 times WORSE than flu.

2. With seasonal Flu there is a vaccine. Its people who don't get the vaccine that account for the large percentage of deaths. There is currently no vaccine for Coronavirus. Coronavirus is anywhere from 30 to 100 times more deadly than seasonal flu.

3. I challenge you to name a country that is not locking itself down and taking this seriously!

 

[U2Edge]

I was facing a 98 % rebuttal the first time I made any comment on this 3-4 weeks ago when I said I though it was too speculative about this being something that warranted shutting the nation down.
A brief stop may have been wise to see if anything extremely revealing came forth quickly and demanded immediate attention and isolation.
Well we’re almost 10 days into ruining America and no monsters have jumped out.
We’ve been told any day now the infections will soar but they merely match percentage of population sampled.
Easy stats are unavailable. Time to end this overreaction

I challenge you to name one country that is just going about this as "business as usual". Things are FAR WORSE than anyone thought it would be 3 weeks ago. This is the worst domestic crises in the United States since World War II. India just went on lockdown for the next three weeks! That's 1.4 Billion people on lockdown. No one that is a professional or educated on the SCIENCE of pandemics is advocating a return to normal.

 

[U2Edge]

I was facing a 98 % rebuttal the first time I made any comment on this 3-4 weeks ago when I said I though it was too speculative about this being something that warranted shutting the nation down.
A brief stop may have been wise to see if anything extremely revealing came forth quickly and demanded immediate attention and isolation.
Well we’re almost 10 days into ruining America and no monsters have jumped out.
We’ve been told any day now the infections will soar but they merely match percentage of population sampled.
Easy stats are unavailable. Time to end this overreaction

Thing is it is far more widespread and long past isolation. It will run its course. If we knew how high that number of those testing positive really was, those death rates drop exponentially.
If 100 test positive and 1 dies that is a 1% death rate. If it is actually 1000 infected with that one death that rate drops to .1%.
Without the ability to test 345 million folks, the numbers thrown around are to this point useless speculation. We never have enough testing of anything as each year we can't foresee every pathogen that might run through.
We will eventually have a vaccine, but the world isn't going to shutter for a year waiting. Nor should it.

You can't say that its to widespread and long past isolation. You have no numbers to prove that, and acting like that when it comes to policy could kill 2 million Americans within a year and destroy the U.S. healthcare system. If you open the barn door, America will make Italy seem like a bump in the road.

 

[SweetSue92]

W

What are we going to do in 6 months when the next flu season starts, shut down again? We have swung from one extreme to the other. Those at high risk should isolate, the rest of the country should get back to work. That's my opinion.

We have flu vaccines.

Get one.

Yet despite those vaccines we still lose thousands every year and don't lose our shit over it.
The vaccines are no guarantee either as they are developed each year with the expected strains which are not always in line with actual strains that may spread in any particular year.
A clue.
Get one.

1. This is not the FLU.
Death rate is calculated by deaths divided by infections. Flu at best has a .1% death rate. Coronavirus death rates depending on state or country are anywhere between 3% and 10%. So 30 to 100 times WORSE than flu.

2. With seasonal Flu there is a vaccine. Its people who don't get the vaccine that account for the large percentage of deaths. There is currently no vaccine for Coronavirus. Coronavirus is anywhere from 30 to 100 times more deadly than seasonal flu.

3. I challenge you to name a country that is not locking itself down and taking this seriously!

That is absolutely, patently untrue. I am in one the highest COVID states and our death rate is about 1.5%, not anywhere CLOSE to 3% and not even close to 10%. Stop lying.

 

[U2Edge]

AMERICA must come together and defeat the idiocy of Donald Trump and his cult.

You could say that again!

 

[U2Edge]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise – as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

I tend to lean your way, open back up to an extent, then I talk to my wife and she tells me they are so low on PPE doctors at her hospital are actually taking how much PPE will be used into their making medical decisions for patients.

So, i have to admit I have no idea what the answer it, but I do agree we cannot keep our entire country on lock down.

Exactly. Its a "Faustian Bargain" in that we are risking some peoples lives, but those people can avoid the illness if they shelter in place. The US needs to get back to business sooner rather than later. I'm sorry of the medical staff gets inundated, but that's life. They need to get that vaccine and approved medications to the people STAT!!

That's not how you fight and defeat a pandemic. You can't just isolate everyone 60 and over. It won't work for many reasons. The United States is still in business. Think about what the United States did during World War II. 16 million men and women left the country and went overseas. People went to work in factories. It was a WAR ECONOMY that focused on specific things. We can do the same thing with coronavirus by focusing on the ESSENTIAL NEEDS OF THE COUNTRY to fight and defeat this pathogen just like we fought and defeated the Nazi's in World War II!

This is another example where you "expound" vociferously about a medical topic and I'm not sure what your "creds" are. The US is mobilized to fight the COVID-19 "war". Industry is re-tooling to make PPE and ventilators. That is hard to do when so many US factories are in China, or India, or VN, etc. If we had a WW2 type war now we'd lose, we can't make munitions, planes, ships, or tanks on a large scale anymore. That's the populist's point why we need Trump to bring manufacturing jobs back to the US.
1. Why can't you isolate most people over 60?
2. We also have many scientists working on vaccines, and therapies to fight COVID-19.
3. We will defeat the pathogen, but it will take time, the economy doesn't have that much time.

Not were not mobilized the fight the COVID-19 war, just as we were not mobilized to fight World War II on December 7, 1941. We won't be mobilized until the healthcare system as all the supplies and labor they need to fight this Pathogen! Right now, there are shortages everywhere! So no, were not mobilized yet at all.

1. Because people over 60 live and work in this economy as well. Many of the Doctors and Nurses on the front lines are in this age group. They are not perfectly separated from the other age groups in terms of work or living arrangements. Anyone can be a vector that the pathogen uses to spread itself. Even people over 60 who are retired still have to eat. That means they have to get food. They also have to see the doctor more often of other things.

2. Great, but until they come up with a vaccine, the lock down of non-essential goods and services is needed.

3. The economy survived in the 1930s and the changes brought on by World War II. The economy will be just fine. The United States is the wealthiest country and could take a 3 year hit to its economy if it had to if not longer. Protecting the lives of millions of people is more important that the resumption of non-essential services and goods. 40% of the people who have been hospitalized for this Virus are under age 50. You risk overwhelming the healthcare system without the current restrictions in place.

Respectfully, Trump will do what Trump does, and the rest of us and the governors will need to deal with it as best we can. Trump will recommend that the governors reopen their state's economies as much as practical considering the pandemic some time around Easter. Then we see what happens. Stay safe.

The only people who advocate opening the country up at some arbitrary time like Easter are people who are not planning for the worst case situation and are ignoring the SCIENCE of defeating a pandemic.

 

[U2Edge]

W

What are we going to do in 6 months when the next flu season starts, shut down again? We have swung from one extreme to the other. Those at high risk should isolate, the rest of the country should get back to work. That's my opinion.

We have flu vaccines.

Get one.

Yet despite those vaccines we still lose thousands every year and don't lose our shit over it.
The vaccines are no guarantee either as they are developed each year with the expected strains which are not always in line with actual strains that may spread in any particular year.
A clue.
Get one.

1. This is not the FLU.
Death rate is calculated by deaths divided by infections. Flu at best has a .1% death rate. Coronavirus death rates depending on state or country are anywhere between 3% and 10%. So 30 to 100 times WORSE than flu.

2. With seasonal Flu there is a vaccine. Its people who don't get the vaccine that account for the large percentage of deaths. There is currently no vaccine for Coronavirus. Coronavirus is anywhere from 30 to 100 times more deadly than seasonal flu.

3. I challenge you to name a country that is not locking itself down and taking this seriously!

That is absolutely, patently untrue. I am in one the highest COVID states and our death rate is about 1.5%, not anywhere CLOSE to 3% and not even close to 10%. Stop lying.

Washington State rate now has a 5% death rate. They have done more testing than any other state per capita. The country of Italy is at 10% right now. These are the basic facts. You can look them up here for yourself:

COVID Live Update: 261,475,525 Cases and 5,215,099 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

Click on the USA to see figures for the individual states. No lies at all!

 

[U2Edge]

Governor Tim Walz (D) Mn. Has so far declined a complete shutdown beyond sports, and restaurants despite testing positive himself and the Lt. Governor losing a brother. He has watched the numbers and relied on the many leading experts from the UofM and Mayo clinic. He stated the restaurants may be closed for months, but knows that a full shutdown will ruin far more financially when the numbers just don't add up to take such an extreme measure.

You don't listen to a Governor on how to fight a pandemic, you listen to an epidemiologist.

The opening of non-essential business's is not worth killing people. No ones stock options or Savings is worth killing people, continuing the spread of the virus and destroying the healthcare system. This is a WAR where everyone has to do their part in DEFEATING THE PATHOGEN. For millions of people, that means you stay in your HOUSE! Don't allow your self to become a VECTOR to spread the virus!

 

[SweetSue92]

W

What are we going to do in 6 months when the next flu season starts, shut down again? We have swung from one extreme to the other. Those at high risk should isolate, the rest of the country should get back to work. That's my opinion.

We have flu vaccines.

Get one.

Yet despite those vaccines we still lose thousands every year and don't lose our shit over it.
The vaccines are no guarantee either as they are developed each year with the expected strains which are not always in line with actual strains that may spread in any particular year.
A clue.
Get one.

1. This is not the FLU.
Death rate is calculated by deaths divided by infections. Flu at best has a .1% death rate. Coronavirus death rates depending on state or country are anywhere between 3% and 10%. So 30 to 100 times WORSE than flu.

2. With seasonal Flu there is a vaccine. Its people who don't get the vaccine that account for the large percentage of deaths. There is currently no vaccine for Coronavirus. Coronavirus is anywhere from 30 to 100 times more deadly than seasonal flu.

3. I challenge you to name a country that is not locking itself down and taking this seriously!

That is absolutely, patently untrue. I am in one the highest COVID states and our death rate is about 1.5%, not anywhere CLOSE to 3% and not even close to 10%. Stop lying.

Washington State rate now has a 5% death rate. They have done more testing than any other state per capita. The country of Italy is at 10% right now. These are the basic facts. You can look them up here for yourself:

COVID Live Update: 261,475,525 Cases and 5,215,099 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

Click on the USA to see figures for the individual states. No lies at all!

That's skewed for the US and you know it because the virus swept through a nursing home and killed almost everyone. That's not the stats in most states in the US.

I do not like dishonesty and I do not like when people incite panic over dishonest stats. BE. HONEST.

 

[SweetSue92]

W

What are we going to do in 6 months when the next flu season starts, shut down again? We have swung from one extreme to the other. Those at high risk should isolate, the rest of the country should get back to work. That's my opinion.

We have flu vaccines.

Get one.

Yet despite those vaccines we still lose thousands every year and don't lose our shit over it.
The vaccines are no guarantee either as they are developed each year with the expected strains which are not always in line with actual strains that may spread in any particular year.
A clue.
Get one.

1. This is not the FLU.
Death rate is calculated by deaths divided by infections. Flu at best has a .1% death rate. Coronavirus death rates depending on state or country are anywhere between 3% and 10%. So 30 to 100 times WORSE than flu.

2. With seasonal Flu there is a vaccine. Its people who don't get the vaccine that account for the large percentage of deaths. There is currently no vaccine for Coronavirus. Coronavirus is anywhere from 30 to 100 times more deadly than seasonal flu.

3. I challenge you to name a country that is not locking itself down and taking this seriously!

That is absolutely, patently untrue. I am in one the highest COVID states and our death rate is about 1.5%, not anywhere CLOSE to 3% and not even close to 10%. Stop lying.

Washington State rate now has a 5% death rate. They have done more testing than any other state per capita. The country of Italy is at 10% right now. These are the basic facts. You can look them up here for yourself:

COVID Live Update: 261,475,525 Cases and 5,215,099 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

Click on the USA to see figures for the individual states. No lies at all!

Florida: 1412 cases; 18 deaths. Just over a 1% death rate. STOP LYING

Coronavirus: How Florida compares to other states

As COVID-19 cases continue to increase, here’s a look at the statistics for several states and the measures each one is taking to control the outbreak.

www.clickorlando.com

 

[U2Edge]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise – as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

All of the lock down measures that I've seen, have not been effective, as near as I can tell.
The clear example of this, would be Italy, which is again as near as I can tell, has the most strict and harsh lock down measure of any country.

Yet virus infections are still rising.

So.... given there doesn't seem to be much value in lock down, then we are left with a pointless policy that damages the entire economy. Corona, no matter which way you look at it, will be short term. Damage to the economy will be long term.

Now I do understand the logic, of trying to flatten the curve, and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Again... not seeing that this is working.

I didn't know that Italy shutdown the entire country. Last I heard it was just the northern part.

Coronavirus: Italy bans any movement inside country as toll nears 5,500

PM shuts down all non-essential factories and businesses as lockdowns spread across the world

www.theguardian.com

The US needs to do as many other mitigation measures as possible to minimize the spread. Whether its no public transportation, or mandatory testing and temperature testing at work, or taking medications such as in this CDC link:

Healthcare Workers

COVID-19 guidance, tools, and resources for healthcare workers.

www.cdc.gov

I'm not sure about schools or colleges. Still think they need to do their work online.

IMHO it shouldn't be any worse than normal flu, but it could be.
Still we can't stop working or the economy collapses.

Opening non-essential business is just recipe to kill people and overwhelm and destroy the healthcare system. Its not about the economy, its about defeating the enemy. In this case the enemy is a Pathogen that is killing people. There is only one way to kill the Pathogen.

The will be no eradication of the virus. The reality is that it is with us for many months and will eventually reach 40-80% of the worlds population. All we can do is buy some time and find a proper balance without crippling the entire country. Can anyone really envision a lockdown lasting 18 months?
Dr. Osterholm believes shutdowns really have no long term effect. We have to decide to learn how to live with it. No economy or the world can stand a long term shutdown.

America must confront 'how we're going to live with' coronavirus, disease specialist says

The rapid spread of the virus across the country have prompted local and state officials to roll out stringent mitigation policies.

www.google.com

If the equation was only measured in lives then we should shut down everything every winter as influenza kills tens of thousands.
Save us the fear based hyperbole.

The comparison to seasonal flu is complete bullshit! This is a pandemic of a new virus, not the seasonal flew. You measure how dangerous a new PATHOGEN is by its potential to kill people based on its death rate, Not on how many people have died at the start.

You can shut non-essential business's for the next five years if you have to. A lot of that happened in WORLD WAR II!. People sacrificed for the war effort which is what people need to do now. For millions of Americans, that means STAYING HOME and not allow yourself to become a VECTOR for the virus to spread.

Allowing it to spread to 40% to 80% of the population risks killing 2 to 5 million people in the next three years! Nobody who is sane or rational would pick the option just to save rich assholes bank accounts and non-essential business.

 

[Rocko]

The answer to that question is above my pay grade. I’ll let the experts decide what’s best.

Which experts? Does it make sense to ignore the advice of medical experts during a pandemic, or listen to economists driven by a political agenda? Which group of experts should be advising Trump?

The medical experts