Debate Now Posting Solutions for Gun Violence

[frigidweirdo]

Let's give it a try in here. We are after identifying problems and seeking solutions. This is not an area that hate needs to be in nor your political likes and dislikes.

Now, identify the problems and then discuss the possible solutions.

Well, these are things that need to be done.

1) Democracy brought to the USA so that the government is representing the interests of the people.

I suggest Congress (or at the very least the House) has Proportional Representation (possible like the Germans with both PR and FPTP for maximum representation).

The president elected via a run off system like the French have, or different parts of the executive are separated and you vote for a variety of different people to do different jobs within the executive rather than one person with all the power.

2) sort out education so that it actually makes sense for kids today, gives them skill they need.

3) Make sure the US is pushing for businesses to produce higher tech stuff (which the students have been training for) so the US has more opportunities.

This would require ending our Constitutional Republic and establishing a democracy.

Given the Brexit disaster and that one can be punished in the UK for hate speech are but two examples as to why establishing a democracy is a bad idea.

But 2 and 3 are good ideas.

The problem here is that the UK is a FPTP system just like the US.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

A shotgun and a revolver would be less lethal than an AR-15 with a thick stack of 30-rnd mags.

The Santa Fe kid killed 10 and wounded another 13 with a shotgun and a revolver.

Can you imagine what kind of carnage that would have ensued had he had access to an assault rifle and plenty of ammo?

Obviously this is only going to work if we start with background checks and training conducted with with the honest intent of disarming the kid from Santa Fe and get more rigorous from there.

At a minimum, The AR-15 and similar weapons should be accessed through a concealed carry permit.

`​

That's not true Joe. A 12 gauge shotgun is far more lethal than an AR15.

The 12 gauge makes a cumbersome mass killing weapon. The off the shelf shotguns just don't hold enough rounds and the penetration just isn't there. Sure, at a close range, nothing is more terrifying but that's about it. I know I would need a underwear change if I were to hear the racking of a shotgun behind me. But at 100 yds or even 50 yds, the AR has the extreme advantage. Plus, the shotgun is much longer and will take longer to come onto target. Making the AR the better weapon even at short range if neither person is prepared.

The AR wins again. And is the top of the Legal Firearms Food Chain.

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

I am going to answer this once and only once more. This horse has been beaten until there is little of the carcass left.

Even with 9 rounds of double ought, you only have 9 shots in the tube before you have to reload. Now the bad news, it's illegal. If you hold have the ability to hold more than 5 shells, it's illegal. Many older shotguns could hold up to 8 but were required to have plugs put in the place of the extra shells.

Here is the kicker. You will notice the body count was low. Yah, I know, a body count of 10 sounds high but he had nothing to slow him down at first. The question I have, how in the hell did he get that shotgun onto the grounds in the first place without being noticed? And AR is noticable under a raincoat and has been spotted around here which stopped a school shooting before the sicko got to the gate. Now, tell me again just how the hell he got that big piece of artillery onto the school grounds without someone noticing? Sounds to me like the Parents need to shut that place down and start over.

Shotguns are NOT the weapon of choice if going for the high body count and if due vigilance is exercise, it should have never made it onto the school grounds.

 

[westwall]

A shotgun and a revolver would be less lethal than an AR-15 with a thick stack of 30-rnd mags.

The Santa Fe kid killed 10 and wounded another 13 with a shotgun and a revolver.

Can you imagine what kind of carnage that would have ensued had he had access to an assault rifle and plenty of ammo?

Obviously this is only going to work if we start with background checks and training conducted with with the honest intent of disarming the kid from Santa Fe and get more rigorous from there.

At a minimum, The AR-15 and similar weapons should be accessed through a concealed carry permit.

`​

That's not true Joe. A 12 gauge shotgun is far more lethal than an AR15.

The 12 gauge makes a cumbersome mass killing weapon. The off the shelf shotguns just don't hold enough rounds and the penetration just isn't there. Sure, at a close range, nothing is more terrifying but that's about it. I know I would need a underwear change if I were to hear the racking of a shotgun behind me. But at 100 yds or even 50 yds, the AR has the extreme advantage. Plus, the shotgun is much longer and will take longer to come onto target. Making the AR the better weapon even at short range if neither person is prepared.

The AR wins again. And is the top of the Legal Firearms Food Chain.

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

I am going to answer this once and only once more. This horse has been beaten until there is little of the carcass left.

Even with 9 rounds of double ought, you only have 9 shots in the tube before you have to reload. Now the bad news, it's illegal. If you hold have the ability to hold more than 5 shells, it's illegal. Many older shotguns could hold up to 8 but were required to have plugs put in the place of the extra shells.

Here is the kicker. You will notice the body count was low. Yah, I know, a body count of 10 sounds high but he had nothing to slow him down at first. The question I have, how in the hell did he get that shotgun onto the grounds in the first place without being noticed? And AR is noticable under a raincoat and has been spotted around here which stopped a school shooting before the sicko got to the gate. Now, tell me again just how the hell he got that big piece of artillery onto the school grounds without someone noticing? Sounds to me like the Parents need to shut that place down and start over.

Shotguns are NOT the weapon of choice if going for the high body count and if due vigilance is exercise, it should have never made it onto the school grounds.

Plugs in shotgun magazines take all of two minutes to remove. Below are videos that show how simple training gives the shotgun all the advantages. Remember, the Winchester Model 97 was called the "Trench Broom" for a reason. The Germans were terrified of them.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

A shotgun and a revolver would be less lethal than an AR-15 with a thick stack of 30-rnd mags.

The Santa Fe kid killed 10 and wounded another 13 with a shotgun and a revolver.

Can you imagine what kind of carnage that would have ensued had he had access to an assault rifle and plenty of ammo?

Obviously this is only going to work if we start with background checks and training conducted with with the honest intent of disarming the kid from Santa Fe and get more rigorous from there.

At a minimum, The AR-15 and similar weapons should be accessed through a concealed carry permit.

`​

That's not true Joe. A 12 gauge shotgun is far more lethal than an AR15.

The 12 gauge makes a cumbersome mass killing weapon. The off the shelf shotguns just don't hold enough rounds and the penetration just isn't there. Sure, at a close range, nothing is more terrifying but that's about it. I know I would need a underwear change if I were to hear the racking of a shotgun behind me. But at 100 yds or even 50 yds, the AR has the extreme advantage. Plus, the shotgun is much longer and will take longer to come onto target. Making the AR the better weapon even at short range if neither person is prepared.

The AR wins again. And is the top of the Legal Firearms Food Chain.

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

I am going to answer this once and only once more. This horse has been beaten until there is little of the carcass left.

Even with 9 rounds of double ought, you only have 9 shots in the tube before you have to reload. Now the bad news, it's illegal. If you hold have the ability to hold more than 5 shells, it's illegal. Many older shotguns could hold up to 8 but were required to have plugs put in the place of the extra shells.

Here is the kicker. You will notice the body count was low. Yah, I know, a body count of 10 sounds high but he had nothing to slow him down at first. The question I have, how in the hell did he get that shotgun onto the grounds in the first place without being noticed? And AR is noticable under a raincoat and has been spotted around here which stopped a school shooting before the sicko got to the gate. Now, tell me again just how the hell he got that big piece of artillery onto the school grounds without someone noticing? Sounds to me like the Parents need to shut that place down and start over.

Shotguns are NOT the weapon of choice if going for the high body count and if due vigilance is exercise, it should have never made it onto the school grounds.

Plugs in shotgun magazines take all of two minutes to remove. Below are videos that show how simple training gives the shotgun all the advantages. Remember, the Winchester Model 97 was called the "Trench Broom" for a reason. The Germans were terrified of them.

There is no solution here. You are only pointing out another problem. Do you really want the Shotgun to become the weapon of choice?

 

[westwall]

That's not true Joe. A 12 gauge shotgun is far more lethal than an AR15.

The 12 gauge makes a cumbersome mass killing weapon. The off the shelf shotguns just don't hold enough rounds and the penetration just isn't there. Sure, at a close range, nothing is more terrifying but that's about it. I know I would need a underwear change if I were to hear the racking of a shotgun behind me. But at 100 yds or even 50 yds, the AR has the extreme advantage. Plus, the shotgun is much longer and will take longer to come onto target. Making the AR the better weapon even at short range if neither person is prepared.

The AR wins again. And is the top of the Legal Firearms Food Chain.

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

I am going to answer this once and only once more. This horse has been beaten until there is little of the carcass left.

Even with 9 rounds of double ought, you only have 9 shots in the tube before you have to reload. Now the bad news, it's illegal. If you hold have the ability to hold more than 5 shells, it's illegal. Many older shotguns could hold up to 8 but were required to have plugs put in the place of the extra shells.

Here is the kicker. You will notice the body count was low. Yah, I know, a body count of 10 sounds high but he had nothing to slow him down at first. The question I have, how in the hell did he get that shotgun onto the grounds in the first place without being noticed? And AR is noticable under a raincoat and has been spotted around here which stopped a school shooting before the sicko got to the gate. Now, tell me again just how the hell he got that big piece of artillery onto the school grounds without someone noticing? Sounds to me like the Parents need to shut that place down and start over.

Shotguns are NOT the weapon of choice if going for the high body count and if due vigilance is exercise, it should have never made it onto the school grounds.

Plugs in shotgun magazines take all of two minutes to remove. Below are videos that show how simple training gives the shotgun all the advantages. Remember, the Winchester Model 97 was called the "Trench Broom" for a reason. The Germans were terrified of them.

There is no solution here. You are only pointing out another problem. Do you really want the Shotgun to become the weapon of choice?

The ultimate problem is you are merely focusing on the tool, and not the real problem, which is the people using them criminally. Remove one tool, and they move on to another. Guns are hard to get in France so they drive trucks into crowds. The result is more dead than any shooting we've ever had. Bad people do bad things. Taking one tool away from those who are not inclined to evil merely makes it easier for the bad guy to do his evil act because he won't follow the law anyway.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The 12 gauge makes a cumbersome mass killing weapon. The off the shelf shotguns just don't hold enough rounds and the penetration just isn't there. Sure, at a close range, nothing is more terrifying but that's about it. I know I would need a underwear change if I were to hear the racking of a shotgun behind me. But at 100 yds or even 50 yds, the AR has the extreme advantage. Plus, the shotgun is much longer and will take longer to come onto target. Making the AR the better weapon even at short range if neither person is prepared.

The AR wins again. And is the top of the Legal Firearms Food Chain.

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

I am going to answer this once and only once more. This horse has been beaten until there is little of the carcass left.

Even with 9 rounds of double ought, you only have 9 shots in the tube before you have to reload. Now the bad news, it's illegal. If you hold have the ability to hold more than 5 shells, it's illegal. Many older shotguns could hold up to 8 but were required to have plugs put in the place of the extra shells.

Here is the kicker. You will notice the body count was low. Yah, I know, a body count of 10 sounds high but he had nothing to slow him down at first. The question I have, how in the hell did he get that shotgun onto the grounds in the first place without being noticed? And AR is noticable under a raincoat and has been spotted around here which stopped a school shooting before the sicko got to the gate. Now, tell me again just how the hell he got that big piece of artillery onto the school grounds without someone noticing? Sounds to me like the Parents need to shut that place down and start over.

Shotguns are NOT the weapon of choice if going for the high body count and if due vigilance is exercise, it should have never made it onto the school grounds.

Plugs in shotgun magazines take all of two minutes to remove. Below are videos that show how simple training gives the shotgun all the advantages. Remember, the Winchester Model 97 was called the "Trench Broom" for a reason. The Germans were terrified of them.

There is no solution here. You are only pointing out another problem. Do you really want the Shotgun to become the weapon of choice?

The ultimate problem is you are merely focusing on the tool, and not the real problem, which is the people using them criminally. Remove one tool, and they move on to another. Guns are hard to get in France so they drive trucks into crowds. The result is more dead than any shooting we've ever had. Bad people do bad things. Taking one tool away from those who are not inclined to evil merely makes it easier for the bad guy to do his evil act because he won't follow the law anyway.

No, You are focusing on the tools. I am trying to break the tradition and go for the solution. And I don't accept that there is no solutions out there.

For instance, making it all the way into a School carrying a shotgun. For crying out loud. If there had been even one person at the gate it would have been noticed. Or the community surrounding the school paying attention. We had a concerned citizen notice a student walking towards a school wearing a rain coat with a bulge in it. The concerned citizen called the police. The Police surrounded that individual and over powered him even before he could unlimber that AR-15. He clanked when he walked for crying out loud with that hardware. Then a few weeks later, in Texas, a kid makes it all the way into a school with a shotgun and extra ammo. What's wrong with that picture. Tell me again that it could not have been prevented.

The problem is, it's pretty common placed to see people walking with guns on streets. The Gun Culture needs to be rethought. It is thought to be no one's elses business that they student was carrying a shotgun so he gains easy access. It's not that common here hence our potential shooter had to hide the weapon under a raincoat on a warm and dry day to try and get to the school gate. We have a law that no firearms are to be had within 1000 feet of any school. While it may not stop handguns, it does stop the AR and Shotguns since they are hard to hide. I don't know what the law is in Texas but I imagine it's a whole lot looser.

We have added at least one Security person on the School Gate now and they are Armed. A bunch of Gun "Enthusiasts" tried to get the Teachers armed but the teachers flat voted that down themselves. They refused to be armed. Instead, the guard at the gate. If you stop the potential shooter at the gate, they can't gain access to the school itself. I imagine that metal detectors will be the next stage which is a good thing. Even Stores have detectors for shop lifters so the public is used to them already. If you can't sneak the weapon onto the grounds, you can't use them to shoot the place and students up. It also may help to have one or two roving security guards as well in the larger schools as well. But keep it where you don't really know who they are. And keep them trained. Make them go through pressure training at least a couple of days each month. If you have a Security Guard that doesn't stay up on things you just have a bozo with a gun and we already saw how that works out.

Well, there is the solution for School Mass Shootings.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Most of the mass shooter were on psychotropic prescription drugs. But nobody ever talks about that reality.

 

[AVG-JOE]

A shotgun and a revolver would be less lethal than an AR-15 with a thick stack of 30-rnd mags.

The Santa Fe kid killed 10 and wounded another 13 with a shotgun and a revolver.

Can you imagine what kind of carnage that would have ensued had he had access to an assault rifle and plenty of ammo?

Obviously this is only going to work if we start with background checks and training conducted with with the honest intent of disarming the kid from Santa Fe and get more rigorous from there.

At a minimum, The AR-15 and similar weapons should be accessed through a concealed carry permit.

​

​

That's not true Joe. A 12 gauge shotgun is far more lethal than an AR15.

Sure, bullet hole for bullet hole - but not in terms of sheer volume capabilities.

If shooting unarmed people trapped in a building is the task, and an impressive body count is the goal, the AR-15 is far more lethal than a 12 gauge shotgun.

There is a reason that professional soldiers use assault weapons rather than shotguns when they are working.

`​

 

[ding]

A shotgun and a revolver would be less lethal than an AR-15 with a thick stack of 30-rnd mags.

The Santa Fe kid killed 10 and wounded another 13 with a shotgun and a revolver.

Can you imagine what kind of carnage that would have ensued had he had access to an assault rifle and plenty of ammo?

Obviously this is only going to work if we start with background checks and training conducted with with the honest intent of disarming the kid from Santa Fe and get more rigorous from there.

At a minimum, The AR-15 and similar weapons should be accessed through a concealed carry permit.

`​

That's not true Joe. A 12 gauge shotgun is far more lethal than an AR15.

The 12 gauge makes a cumbersome mass killing weapon. The off the shelf shotguns just don't hold enough rounds and the penetration just isn't there. Sure, at a close range, nothing is more terrifying but that's about it. I know I would need a underwear change if I were to hear the racking of a shotgun behind me. But at 100 yds or even 50 yds, the AR has the extreme advantage. Plus, the shotgun is much longer and will take longer to come onto target. Making the AR the better weapon even at short range if neither person is prepared.

The AR wins again. And is the top of the Legal Firearms Food Chain.

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

I am going to answer this once and only once more. This horse has been beaten until there is little of the carcass left.

Even with 9 rounds of double ought, you only have 9 shots in the tube before you have to reload. Now the bad news, it's illegal. If you hold have the ability to hold more than 5 shells, it's illegal. Many older shotguns could hold up to 8 but were required to have plugs put in the place of the extra shells.

Here is the kicker. You will notice the body count was low. Yah, I know, a body count of 10 sounds high but he had nothing to slow him down at first. The question I have, how in the hell did he get that shotgun onto the grounds in the first place without being noticed? And AR is noticable under a raincoat and has been spotted around here which stopped a school shooting before the sicko got to the gate. Now, tell me again just how the hell he got that big piece of artillery onto the school grounds without someone noticing? Sounds to me like the Parents need to shut that place down and start over.

Shotguns are NOT the weapon of choice if going for the high body count and if due vigilance is exercise, it should have never made it onto the school grounds.

1. It is only illegal to hold more than 3 rounds (with one of the three being in the chamber if you are hunting).

2. You can't compare the "body count" from different events to determine which weapon is more fatal.

3. That same raincoat will house a shottie.

4. If your objective is to kill then a shotgun round (00) is more effective than an undersized 5.56.

5. You can buy and legally own a Saiga with a 20 round drum.

6. You can extend the effective range of a shotgun by using slugs instead of buckshot. Either of which has almost ten times more lead than a 5.56.

ProMag Saiga 12 Gauge Drum Magazine, 20 Rounds - 190515, Shotgun Mags at Sportsman's Guide

Ammo 12 Gauge Federal Vital-Shok 2-3/4" TruBall Rifled Slug 1 Ounce 5 Round Box 1600 fps PB127RS - 029465025267

 

[Pop23]

Most of the mass shooter were on psychotropic prescription drugs. But nobody ever talks about that reality.

I have posted on this subject dozens and dozens of times. It is reality, but folks would rather put a band aid on a festering wound than to deal with this reality.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

Well then, perhaps shotties with detachable magazines and extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber so ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles should be accessed through the same backgrounds checks and training that would be required for an AR-15.

This is not rocket science, y'all.​

 

[Pop23]

Again, the OP wants you to post a solution without adequately defining the problem(s) in the first place.

The OP wants all to think that the problem is "gun violence", when the fact is that this ignores the reality that this is a multi faceted issue that needs solutions to each individual group within the larger definition.

Breaking each group down you see that there are different problems requiring far different solutions.

First is Death caused from Suicide. The OP would like to say that "common sense" controls will stop deaths from suicide by gun. In a simplistic way he would be correct. Eliminate guns from the equation and obviously you end suicide by gun. But as demonstrated to the OP on multiple occasions, a gun is not a requirement to end ones own life, and other developed countries with strict gun control, have nearly the same or more suicides than we do.

To the OP, success looks like this "we eliminated the total amount of suicides by gun, but the overall suicide rate stayed the same." and he calls that victory, I call it putting your head in the sand.

It is a disingenuous argument at best.

Suicide accounts for the greatest number of firearm deaths each year, making up 2/3rds of the total, and as defined earlier, eliminating guns entirely would not put a dent in the overall numbers, so what would more training, limiting magazine capacity (suicide by gun rarely requires more than 1 round) or gun locks do? Likely nothing.

And AR 15's and bump stocks are nearly never used in suicide attempts, so eliminating them gets you a zero sum gain.

Second on the list is gang related shootings. Gang related shooting account for 80% of the non suicide related deaths by firearm. 80% of the remaining 1/3rd of all killings by firearm.

Would registration, gun lock requirements, better training or any other "common sense" solution end these? Doubtful, since gangs live by the principle that breaking the law is their way of life.

The solution requires a radical shift in how we treat these groups. Quit treating them as people that can be brought back into a well organized, law abiding civilization and do to them as we would any terrorist group.

Murder by a gang member = Death Penalty

Violent crime by a gang member = 30 years, no parole

And maybe the most important in the long run, those that are found recruiting for a gang = 30 years. Those found recruiting minors = Life with no parole.

I've now solved the 2nd greatest number of killings by firearm

The rest are minor in the whole scope of "deaths due to firearm", but I will go through each:

Killings due to domestic dispute: What common sense "gun control law" will stop an abusive spouse from killing it's partner? The fact is, they would have the key to any gun lock or gun safe and additional training? Do we want abusive spouses to be better trained? Registration? Do you actually think that someone who would face life in prison or the death penalty really cares that he is violating a registration law? Eliminate guns entirely and the killer can still kill. They are normally the stronger of the two anyway.

The true folly in this grouping is that, having a gun can actually save the life of the would be victim. Making the weak even weaker is never a good idea.

Killings by LEO officers to save self or others: I don't see any argument that these can be even discussed in this realm

Mass Killings: This group is the smallest of all the groups, they are rare but sensational.

The solution to most is to stop drugging our kids which turns some into murderous monsters. But lacking that, I'll examine the other posted solutions that have been posted in this and other threads:

1. Harden the target by limiting access, metal detectors or other means. We have learned through history that a weaker opponent will not strike at a target where they have no chance of success, but most often that just leads them to a more vulnerable position to strike at. So I guess it's better to have the dead in a school bus, a playground or the 7-11 down the street than in the School itself?

2. Arm the teachers. Seems somewhat reasonable. A force of many will often defeat a force of one. But this simply takes us back to point #1. Why would the killer simply not attack where the teachers are not present? #2 makes more sense than #1, but only marginally so.

3. Eliminate the ownership of AR style rifles. AR Style rifles are not a requirement of these killings. In fact, they account for a small percentage overall, of the already tiny death toll, and as has been more than adequately demonstrated, are easily substituted for just as lethal weapons such as shotguns, semi automatic pistols, revolvers, pipe bombs and cars/trucks/vans. Killers kill folks, it is exactly what they do. Take one tool away, they'll find another.

Now lets stop this childish behavior that is nothing more than to seek to divide and conquer, creating yet another political "identity group" and deal with reality.

 

[westwall]

A shotgun and a revolver would be less lethal than an AR-15 with a thick stack of 30-rnd mags.

The Santa Fe kid killed 10 and wounded another 13 with a shotgun and a revolver.

Can you imagine what kind of carnage that would have ensued had he had access to an assault rifle and plenty of ammo?

Obviously this is only going to work if we start with background checks and training conducted with with the honest intent of disarming the kid from Santa Fe and get more rigorous from there.

At a minimum, The AR-15 and similar weapons should be accessed through a concealed carry permit.

​

That's not true Joe. A 12 gauge shotgun is far more lethal than an AR15.

Sure, bullet hole for bullet hole - but not in terms of sheer volume capabilities.

If shooting unarmed people trapped in a building is the task, and an impressive body count is the goal, the AR-15 is far more lethal than a 12 gauge shotgun.

There is a reason that professional soldiers use assault weapons rather than shotguns when they are working.

`​

Yes, in terms of sheer volume too. Shotguns are outlawed by the Geneva Convention Joe. M-16's....aren't. That should tell you something.

 

[westwall]

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

Well then, perhaps shotties with detachable magazines and extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber so ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles should be accessed through the same backgrounds checks and training that would be required for an AR-15.

This is not rocket science, y'all.​

And machineguns are already banned in France yet four of them were used to murder 130 people in Paris. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that gun bans don't seem to work.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I never said anything about banning weapons.....

Hell, I think that you should be able to own a bazooka if you're willing to undergo an extensive background check and be willing to maintain an active membership in a state approved organization whose two-fold function is to train you on safe weapons handling for the grade of hardware you have access to and to know you and be there for you if your wife becomes an ex who is willing to piss all over what little she leaves you with.

Bear in mind that I also believe that the requirements for owning a couple of 9mm and 22 hand guns and a couple of 22 rifles, including some that are automatic and capable of emptying a 100 round drum should require no more training and background investigation than is required to obtain a concealed weapons permit in The Great State of Florida.

The Gunshine State ​

 

[westwall]

I never said anything about banning weapons.....

Hell, I think that you should be able to own a bazooka if you're willing to undergo an extensive background check and be willing to maintain an active membership in a state approved organization whose two-fold function is to train you on safe weapons handling for the grade of hardware you have access to and to know you and be there for you if your wife becomes an ex who is willing to piss all over what little she leaves you with.

Bear in mind that I also believe that the requirements for owning a couple of 9mm and 22 hand guns and a couple of 22 rifles, including some that are automatic and capable of emptying a 100 round drum should require no more training and background investigation than is required to obtain a concealed weapons permit in The Great State of Florida.

The Gunshine State ​

The second you require a person to be a member of a group to possess anything, it stops being a Right, and becomes a privilege. Privileges are easily taken away so that only those people that the bureaucrats like...get to have their guns. There are dozens of examples of how your step, was the first step, towards a dictatorship.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Your right is to bear arms.

Your privilege is to bear really fancy hardware.

Hell, even The Constitutional Right of keeping a 9 in the home for 'just in case' requires the privilege of enough disposable income to afford both the hardware and the ammo.


Carried far enough, the right to bear arms includes an argument for government vouchers redeemable at any federally licensed gun dealer for a serviceable weapon and basic instructions on how to use it for the less fortunate.

The right to bear arms does not guarantee the right to own an aircraft carrier, no matter how well you did in the Dot-Com Era.

Modern politics is deciding what is, and what is not, on the various lists.

 

[ding]

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

Well then, perhaps shotties with detachable magazines and extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber so ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles should be accessed through the same backgrounds checks and training that would be required for an AR-15.

This is not rocket science, y'all.​

Not sure what training you think is required to purchase a firearm, but they do have the same background check requirements. I seem to recall there is a difference in the checks for pistols versus long guns.

 

[ding]

Your right is to bear arms.

Your privilege is to bear really fancy hardware.

Hell, even The Constitutional Right of keeping a 9 in the home for 'just in case' requires the privilege of enough disposable income to afford both the hardware and the ammo.


Carried far enough, the right to bear arms includes an argument for government vouchers redeemable at any federally licensed gun dealer for a serviceable weapon and basic instructions on how to use it for the less fortunate.

The right to bear arms does not guarantee the right to own an aircraft carrier, no matter how well you did in the Dot-Com Era.

Modern politics is deciding what is, and what is not, on the various lists.

The intent of the 2nd Amendment would be arms that any light infantry ought to have. Today, that would be semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Shootings don't typically happen at 50 to 100 yards. And a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot (nine-32 caliber projectiles fired at a 1300 fps muzzle velocity) is probably lethal out to 50 yards.

And lastly, they make shotties with detachable magazines and they make extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber. So ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles. I'd rather be shot by a 223 than a 00 buckshot.

Well then, perhaps shotties with detachable magazines and extension tubes that hold nine rounds and one in the chamber so ten 00 buckshot rounds equals ninety 32 caliber projectiles should be accessed through the same backgrounds checks and training that would be required for an AR-15.

This is not rocket science, y'all.​

Not sure what training you think is required to purchase a firearm, but they do have the same background check requirements. I seem to recall there is a difference in the checks for pistols versus long guns.

Before I got my CC permit, I had to take a course on gun safety, which included a live-fire exercise at a gun range.

There is nothing wrong with requiring proof of basic competency when issuing a license.