Putin Declares War on the Ukraine

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Never mind. If you don’t get it.

Oops, you forgot to say again.

Funny how that question sends the goobers sprinting for the hills.

Every time.

 

[PinktheFloyd88]

Sow how are they "playing NATO"? What should NATO do differently?

You forgot to say.

Duh.

I think Mindful is the sweetest poster here, and I respect her greatly.

But NATO is not to blame for this. This is Putin being a madman. He is not playing anything like a fiddle - he is flat out invading an innocent country full of 42 million people

 

[TemplarKormac]

Just an attempt to exploit a technicality, from what I read.

Russia never went through the formal process of being admitted to the UN or added to the Security Council.They basically slid into both positions by edict and took the USSR's spots

Possibly they could revoke the edict and force a vote by the remaining members, veto-proof.

Intriguing.

What do you mean they "never went through the formal process"?

They are chairing the UNSC at the moment.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I think Mindful is the sweetest poster here, and I respect her greatly.

But NATO is not to blame for this. This is Putin being a madman. He is not playing anything like a fiddle - he is flat out invading an innocent country full of 42 million people

Of course they aren't.

There is literally only one person on the planet to blame, and that is the evil kleptocrat who is about to slaughter Ukrainians for his personal pride and legacy.

If he drops dead immediately, the world will be amuch better place.

 

[georgephillip]

Bullshit apologism.

More countries entered NATO precisely because of Russian aggression.

You put the cart before the horse, there.

The US made guarantees that NATO would expand one inch to the east if the Soviets agreed to reuniting Germany. That understanding was violated by Bill Clinton in pursuit of a second term, and, of course, the billions in US arms sales to be made to former Soviet satellites.

 

[Silver Cat]

Just an attempt to exploit a technicality, from what I read.

Russia never went through the formal process of being admitted to the UN or added to the Security Council.They basically slid into both positions by edict and took the USSR's spots

Possibly they could revoke the edict and force a vote by the remaining members, veto-proof.

You see, Soviet Union, the USA, the UK, China and France became members of SC UN not because of some kind of technicality, but because the very simple practical reason - those countries were victors in WWII, and they are still most powerful nuclear states in the world. It's not a sort of privilege, or something. UN is an attempt to prevent WWIII. Ignoring nuclear superpowers is a pretty easy and simple way into a catastrophe.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The US made guarantees that NATO would expand one inch to the east if the Soviets agreed to reuniting Germany.

And Russia made guarantees it would not invade its neighbors' territory.

Instead it went to war in Chechnya, Moldova, and Georgia.

This understandably prompted Eatern Europea nations to desire NATO membership and prompted NATO to accept them.

So maybe Russia should have thought of that.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You see, Soviet Union (as well as the USA, the UK, China and France) became members of SC UN not because of some kind of technicality, but because the very simple practical reason - those countries were victors in WWII, and they are still most powerful nuclear states in the world. It's not a sort of privilege, or something. UN is an attempt to prevent WWIII. Ignoring nuclear superpowers is a pretty easy and simple way into a catastrophe.

Yes, understood. But now there are more than 5 nuclear states. So the idea is a bit obsolete, as strictly stated.

 

[georgephillip]

There is literally only one person on the planet to blame, and that is the evil kleptocrat who is about to slaughter Ukrainians for his personal pride and legacy.

What about Obama and Biden in 2014 when they orchestrated a coup against a corrupt, yet duly elected, president in Ukraine?

If you have any interest in honestly debating this topic, you can't ignore the money being made from fossil-fuel energy interests to arms sales by oligarchs on all sides.

 

[georgephillip]

Instead it went to war in Checnya, Moldova, and Georgia.

Any examples of US meddling in those Russian neighbors?

Which country has killed, maimed, and displaced millions of innocent human beings on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland since 1945?

Hint: It's NOT Russia or China.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What about Obama and Biden in 2014 when they orchestrated a coup against a corrupt, yet duly elected, president in Ukraine?

Nah, overstated. The Ukrainians did that. If this is the argument you want, then we can start rattling off the autocratic leaders supported by Putin in clearly fraudulent elections.

Do you notice how the examples you give are easily eclipsed by more examples about Russia?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Any examples of US meddling in those Russian neighbors?

Which came first?

Russia broke its part of the deal. Without the rightfully scared nations in Eastern Europe asking to be in NATO, they would never have entered NATO.


Again, you can blame Russia for that.

Noticing a trend, yet?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Intriguing.

What do you mean they "never went through the formal process"?

They are chairing the UNSC at the moment.

They slid into the USSRs positions by edict, not by the usual process.

 

[Silver Cat]

And Russia made guarantees it would not invade its neighbors' territory.

Instead it went to war in Chechnya, Moldova, and Georgia.

This understandably prompted Eatern Europea nations to desire NATO membership and prompted NATO to accept them.

So maybe Russia should have thought of that.

In fact Chechnya is a part of Russia, Moldova invited Russian peacekeepers and Georgia attacked Russian peacekeepers and civilians first.
Sure, Russia have thought of that. But custom is a second nature, in the case of nations may be its a first nature. And Russians accustomed to fight western invaders - Germans, Frenches, Swedens, Poles, Livonians and many others. They look at NATO expansion and see typical "Drang nach Osten", they listen German Chancellor , who said that genocide [of Russians] in Donbass is funny and remember his grandfathers who came in Russia to kill, rape and pillage...
They look at Ukrainian "pro-European activists" shelling Donbass with MRLS and Europe, ignoring that fact and their traditional behavior patterns are reawakening... "Kill them all before they'll try to kill you".

 

[Mindful]

Of course they aren't.

There is literally only one person on the planet to blame, and that is the evil kleptocrat who is about to slaughter Ukrainians for his personal pride and legacy.

If he drops dead immediately, the world will be amuch better place.

How naive.

You don’t know all the layers.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

In fact Chechnya is a part of Russia, Moldova invited Russian peacekeepers and Georgia attacked Russian peacekeepers and civilians first.
Sure, Russia have thought of that. But custom is a second nature, in the case of nations may be its a first nature. And Russians accustomed to fight western invaders - Germans, Frenches, Swedens, Poles, Livonians and many others. They look at NATO expansion and see typical "Drang nach Osten", they listen German Chancellor , who said that genocide [of Russians] in Donbass is funny and remember his grandfathers who came in Russia to kill, rape and pillage...
They look at Ukrainian "pro-European activists" shelling Donbass with MRLS and Europe, ignoring that fact and their traditional behavior patterns are reawakening... "Kill them all before they'll try to kill you".

Haha..."Russian peacekeepers"....good stuff.

Yes, Chechnya was a rebel province, as they wanted out of the USSR too.

An ironic example, whe you think about it, given today's events.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

How naive.

You don’t know all the layers.

No, Putin is the one person to blame.

No Putin, no slaughter of Ukrainians.

And he is doing it for his personal pride and legacy. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or lying.

 

[Mindful]

No, Putin is the one person to blame.

No Putin, no slaughter of Ukrainians.

And he is doing it for his personal pride and legacy. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or lying.

 

[Stann]

He is reconstituting the USSR. And we are paying for it.

The USSR went broke. It was an evil empire headed by a murderous KGB oligarchy, unfortunately that didn't die, they became the leaders of the democratic farce of a government they have now.

 

[Stann]

No, Putin is the one person to blame.

No Putin, no slaughter of Ukrainians.

And he is doing it for his personal pride and legacy. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or lying.

He is doing it because he's a psychopath and he believes it's patriotic to subject other peoples to Russian rule and domination.