Racist groups vs Free Speech, i've converted...

[Coyote]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

Well said!

 

[Avatar4321]

Violent socialists backing a socialist.

So, if a violent KKK member backs Trump.....your conclusion then is...............LOL

Has trump ever claimed to be KKK?

You really don't get logic do you?

 

[Billy000]

As many other fellow posters, I too face that dilemma as to whether fully allow KKK members, WS and neo-Nazis to openly spew their hatred or opt to stop their Constitution-allowed speech.

It is a tough conundrum. The problem rests with how that hate speech manages to recruit gullible and somewhat ignorant young people to join in that hate-filled ideology.

The best comparison I can make is whether we would opt to STOP radical Muslims to recruit disenfranchised young people to become terrorists for a dubious cause....After all, we sometime monitor what may go on in a Mosque to intervene if that environment is spewing hate filled and violent behaviors......

We all must make a choice regarding our love of free expression, and our desire to be safe from the spreading of more hatred.

Free speech is free speech.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I'll fight to death your right to say it."

- Book of Voltaire

 

[OKTexas]

funny how they keep endorsing the candidates on your side every election.

....just as "funny" as KKK members keep on endorsing Trump and similar wanna-be republicans.

And just as relevant, of course in your two faced world it's only republicans who are responsible for the people that endorse them, solicited on not.


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[OKTexas]

I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It - Voltaire


The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The Oath of Office (for officers):

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the _____ (Military Branch) of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

'Nuff said.

Actually if you look it up, the quote you attributed to Voltaire was written by and attributed to a woman who did a book on Voltaire.


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Voltaire was the pen name of François-Marie Arouet who died in 1778.

I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It | Quote Investigator

In The Friends of Voltaire, Hall wrote the phrase: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"[4] (which is often misattributed to Voltaire himself) as an illustration of Voltaire's beliefs.[5][6][7] Hall's quotation is often cited to describe the principle of freedom of speech.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall - Wikipedia


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[OKTexas]

Toooooo Funny !!! Fred Trump was no 'kkk sympathizer' - that BS WaPo story has been discredited so many times it's laughable.

Here.....just to help with your constipation........(Fred was just hanging out with the wrong folks.....LOL)

The Times account simply names Fred Trump as one of the seven individuals arrested at the rally, and it states that he was released without charges, leaving room for the possibility that he "may have been an innocent bystander, falsely named, or otherwise the victim of mistaken identity during or following a chaotic event."

Yet you had no problem making a definitive statement that he WAS a kkk sympathizer. Go figure. No need for that innocent until proven guilty thingy, right?


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[LordBrownTrout]

As many other fellow posters, I too face that dilemma as to whether fully allow KKK members, WS and neo-Nazis to openly spew their hatred or opt to stop their Constitution-allowed speech.

It is a tough conundrum. The problem rests with how that hate speech manages to recruit gullible and somewhat ignorant young people to join in that hate-filled ideology.

The best comparison I can make is whether we would opt to STOP radical Muslims to recruit disenfranchised young people to become terrorists for a dubious cause....After all, we sometime monitor what may go on in a Mosque to intervene if that environment is spewing hate filled and violent behaviors......

We all must make a choice regarding our love of free expression, and our desire to be safe from the spreading of more hatred.

Also, you must include the blm, antifa, radical left. Looks like you're okay with allowing them to spew their hatred.

 

[Markle]

As many other fellow posters, I too face that dilemma as to whether fully allow KKK members, WS and neo-Nazis to openly spew their hatred or opt to stop their Constitution-allowed speech.

It is a tough conundrum. The problem rests with how that hate speech manages to recruit gullible and somewhat ignorant young people to join in that hate-filled ideology.

The best comparison I can make is whether we would opt to STOP radical Muslims to recruit disenfranchised young people to become terrorists for a dubious cause....After all, we sometime monitor what may go on in a Mosque to intervene if that environment is spewing hate filled and violent behaviors......

We all must make a choice regarding our love of free expression, and our desire to be safe from the spreading of more hatred.

Black racist, King Samir Shabazz, spouting his racist hate speech. If it was a white person saying these things the MSM and the Dems would be throwing a fit, but because its a black man, they don't say a word.

 

[bripat9643]

As many other fellow posters, I too face that dilemma as to whether fully allow KKK members, WS and neo-Nazis to openly spew their hatred or opt to stop their Constitution-allowed speech.

It is a tough conundrum. The problem rests with how that hate speech manages to recruit gullible and somewhat ignorant young people to join in that hate-filled ideology.

The best comparison I can make is whether we would opt to STOP radical Muslims to recruit disenfranchised young people to become terrorists for a dubious cause....After all, we sometime monitor what may go on in a Mosque to intervene if that environment is spewing hate filled and violent behaviors......

We all must make a choice regarding our love of free expression, and our desire to be safe from the spreading of more hatred.

Everyone with a brain and a spine has already decided in favor of the First Amendment. Only savages support censoring speech they don't like

 

[MaryL]

Voltaire aside, Modern liberals want to crucify anyone that doesn't agree, Which is why I am apposed to modern liberalism, it's corrupted itself and made a mockery of real liberalism . I read Nietzsche, "When you look into the darkness, it looks back". If you want to STOP hate, STOP hating. Is that subtle enough?

 

[bripat9643]

No conundrum at all. Let people speak. If we can't beat people in the arena of ideas, we don't deserve to.

Freedom of expression is about speech we DON'T like, not speech we DO like.
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The left doesn't even try to win in the arena of ideas. That's why they are so fond of race baiting and personal attacks.

 

[bripat9643]

Voltaire aside, Modern liberals want to crucify anyone that doesn't agree, Which is why I am apposed to modern liberalism, it's corrupted itself and made a mockery of real liberalism . I read Nietzsche, "When you look into the darkness, it looks back". If you want to STOP hate, STOP hating. Is that subtle enough?

So-called "liberals" are indistinguishable from Stalinists. They use the exact same tactics, and they have the same exact goals. The won't stop until this country has turned into a police state and anyone who disagrees with them is in a gulag. It's only a matter of when, not if.

 

[Derelict_Drvr]

Whatever happened to the American adage: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Nothing wrong with that citation......except it was from a British biographer of the French writer Voltaire.......besides that.....nothing wrong.......LOL

Doesn't matter who said it, the fact remains that many Americans have taken it to heart and firmly believe in its ideal.

Your state who has been attributed to the quote is irrelevant.

 

[bripat9643]

No conundrum at all. Let people speak. If we can't beat people in the arena of ideas, we don't deserve to.

Freedom of expression is about speech we DON'T like, not speech we DO like.

So, you're in full agreement that radical Muslim recruitment should NOT be curtailed or hindered by us, correct?

You mean importing Muslims? The First Amendment doesn't apply to foreigners who aren't residing on U.S. soil. We don't need anymore savages in this country. We already have enough bloodthirsty snowflakes.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

All sides have killed millions.

Furthermore much of what is described as 'White Supremacist" was merely just "Greed"

Slavery for example was about greed, it was a business for goodness sake.

But, the elites have brainwashed the idiotic masses into thinking slavery is White Supremacist.

Oh really? When was the last time that a true White Supremacist wanted to import Blacks into his own backyard like Slave-masters did?

Well you had Nazi's chanting about eradicating Jews from our country just last weekend and you have the KKK and other groups fighting for the right to segregate and live in communities and run businesses that only include whites. You don't find that as reprehensible?

What about multiculturalism which will obviously eradicate both Jews, and Whites?

The fact that the love hormone Oxytocin causes racism, morality, generosity, cuddles, love, trust, and honesty.

Then, no I don't think most racists are bad people, I think racists are usually passionate.

Your side seems to be the cold blooded side, who doesn't care about their heritage.

 

[nat4900]

Your state who has been attributed to the quote is irrelevant.

Most 6th graders feel the same way toward what their teachers tell them.....

 

[OKTexas]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

Nazi Palousey has been walking by confederate statues in Statuary Hall every day for 30 years and just this week is suddenly concerned about removing them. Here's a couple of little known facts about slavery. The first person to have the supreme court commit him to a life time of servitude was black and his master was also black. 47% of slave owners in SC at the start of the civil war were black. Whites, indians and blacks were slaves in the us. So to portray it as a simple black/white issue is absurd. BTW who would be required to pay reparations on behalf of the black slave owners? Hummmmmmmm.


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[Slade3200]

I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

All sides have killed millions.

Furthermore much of what is described as 'White Supremacist" was merely just "Greed"

Slavery for example was about greed, it was a business for goodness sake.

But, the elites have brainwashed the idiotic masses into thinking slavery is White Supremacist.

Oh really? When was the last time that a true White Supremacist wanted to import Blacks into his own backyard like Slave-masters did?

Well you had Nazi's chanting about eradicating Jews from our country just last weekend and you have the KKK and other groups fighting for the right to segregate and live in communities and run businesses that only include whites. You don't find that as reprehensible?

What about multiculturalism which will obviously eradicate both Jews, and Whites?

The fact that the love hormone Oxytocin causes racism, morality, generosity, cuddles, love, trust, and honesty.

Then, no I don't think most racists are bad people, I think racists are usually passionate.

Your side seems to be the cold blooded side, who doesn't care about their heritage.

Why is heritage so important to you? My fathers side is English and Scottish and my mothers side is potuguise Spanish and Sicilian. That think that is awesome, I can relate to people from all those countries

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

Nazi Palousey has been walking by confederate statues in Statuary Hall every day for 30 years and just this week is suddenly concerned about removing them. Here's a couple of little known facts about slavery. The first person to have the supreme court commit him to a life time of servitude was black and his master was also black. 47% of slave owners in SC at the start of the civil war were black. Whites, indians and blacks were slaves in the us. So to portray it as a simple black/white issue is absurd. BTW who would be required to pay reparations on behalf of the black slave owners? Hummmmmmmm.


.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are ranting about. What's your point

 

[OKTexas]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

Nazi Palousey has been walking by confederate statues in Statuary Hall every day for 30 years and just this week is suddenly concerned about removing them. Here's a couple of little known facts about slavery. The first person to have the supreme court commit him to a life time of servitude was black and his master was also black. 47% of slave owners in SC at the start of the civil war were black. Whites, indians and blacks were slaves in the us. So to portray it as a simple black/white issue is absurd. BTW who would be required to pay reparations on behalf of the black slave owners? Hummmmmmmm.


.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are ranting about. What's your point

My point, is all confederates weren't white and the commiecrat leadership is practicing dead fishes mantra, never let a crisis go to waste. It's all political theater. Our history is our history, it belongs to everyone who claims to be Americans. I heard an other interesting factoid tonight on a radio interview. Do you know 67 colleges don't even require American History studies to get a degree in history? It's not being taught K-12 and it's not taught in colleges, should Americans really have to go to museums to learn their history?


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