Religion in politics/schools

[Cecilie1200]

Well Dis thats my point.......Why would a TRUE CHRISTIAN spend money to fight a legal battel while there are HOMELESS and STARVING people in society. So yes I consider them "Christians"

So you think Christians should be responsible for every homeless or starving person in the world? When did you become God, and get to decide how and what money should be spent on, and what should be displayed where? How do I sign up for that job? I'm DAMN good at telling people what to do, and I rock at spending money.

Dis the point is that if you put the display of the TEN COMMANDMENTS ahead of the SUFFERING of your fellow man then what does that say abouy YOU? What priority do you think CHRIST would have?

Sounds to me like you and others like you were the ones putting the Ten Commandments display ahead of the suffering of your fellow man. You could have just sat down, shut up, and ignored the display, instead of compelling your state to spend that money on fighting it, instead of spending it on homeless shelters. The Christians, on the other hand, were spending their own money. Clearly, YOU were the one who thought the homeless shelters could go hang when you needed that tax money to support your point of view.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Before the 70's, religion was pretty much a private affair. Occasionally religious leaders would comment about politics, but it was actually quite rare. People had this notion that the religious in this country were "moral" and "trustworthy" and very "patriotic".

That all changed with the involvement of religion into politics and the emergence of "mega evangelical churches".

This continued to build and was finally brought into the light, so to speak, with the first drafting of he 'Wedge Document" around 1998 whose goal was basically to "defeat" scientific inquiry represented by "evolution" and bring Christianity to the forefront. Basically, to turn America into a theocratic Biblical Christian Country.

All of this culminated with the election of George W. Bush, the first president to claim that he actually speaks with God. Bush probably wouldn't have been elected, but the country was embarrassed and ashamed at what Bill Clinton did by getting blowjobs from a young intern while still in the White House. Bush's victory was less an embrace of his "values" than a vote for what he claimed he would bring to the White House, "values".

America refused to listen to any criticism of Bush. His record of AWOL from the military, his criminal record, his bankrupted companies, his questionable business practices, his reliance on his father, his dismal academic record, his abuse with drugs and drink. None of that mattered. He had found "God" and had "values".

What exactly has been the effect of this direct religious involvement into US politics? Former President Bush, in an interview, said the jury was out on the science of evolution and we should teach the controversy. There is no controversy within the scientific community between the "science" of evolution and "mysticism". Now, what this has done is cause a major portion of the population to view science with suspicion. Scientists will say anything to get public grants. Never mind that it takes decades of dedicated study to be a scientist. How many Nobel Prize winners are under 50?

This suspicion of science contaminated the entire science network that exists within the US Government. Take Nuclear Power plants. A kitchen inspector CAN'T inspect a nuclear power plant. It has to be done by a physicist and an engineer. A board reviews findings.

During the Bush administration, pressure was placed on scientists to change their data to match administration policy on everything from the environment to the effects of industrial waste. While not reported in mainstream media, it was reported in every science and engineering publication for the entire length of the Bush presidency. There was an exodus of scientists from the Bush administration. Many actually left to go to other countries. These will be very difficult people to replace. Contrary to the beliefs of some, nuclear power plants are NOT that easy to construct.

Now, what is the impact of all this in schools and politics?

To be continued.

Oh, boy! It's the "History in Leftist Bizarro World" show! My favorite science fiction/fantasy program!

 

[Cecilie1200]

Have you watched any of Obama's speeches or commericals on tv lately? He is infusing direct quotes from the bible to sell his obamacare to christians. Now, don't you find that funny?????????????? Especially coming from a President that is pro-late term abortion, and has stated that this country was not founded on Christian Judeo beliefs. That we are not a Christian nation. Maybe he should read the constituion and the declaration of independence.

Now tell me what you think of his infusion of Christianity into politics, because I am quite sure you voted for this guy.

I don't find it nearly as funny as earlier politicians' attempts to infuse Christianity into their speaking, because they bungled it so spectacularly. Who can forget Al Gore completely mangling a Bible quote as part of his "faith tradition" and reversing the original meaning of it, or Howard Dean being unable to place his "favorite book of the Bible" in the correct Testament? Good times.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Continued:

Probably the first time that religion was brought to the forefront in politics in a manner that really captured America’s attention was when politicians were denied their wafers in mystical ceremonies. Politicians who represented their constituencies were denied this religious “benefit?” because those constituencies views weren’t acceptable to a “supernatural spirit being” the church claims to represent, a being who is not even a naturalized citizen.

History has taught us the effects of rampant religion in politics. If people believe they are doing “it” for God, they will do anything.

Some examples:

President Bush was correct when he labeled his excursion into the Middle East as a “Crusade”. I believed he absolutely believed that he would bring “freedom” and “democracy” to the Middle Easterners. He was convinced he was on a “mission from God” that could not possibly fail. His administration carefully crafted a scenario that would take us into the Middle East with the approval and support of the American People, by any means necessary. After all, this was a “crusade”. He expected the people there to welcome us with parades and flowers for this liberation.

We now know that they hate us for invading and destroying their country. The first two things they did were create a constitution that made “Islam” the national religion and declared that all laws are now based on Islam. The second thing was to destroy their own Christian population. Bush’s choice was to fight the very people he has come to liberate or the genocide of the Iraqi Christians. Which did he choose?

What has been the effect of religion in our educational system?

Most primary and middle schools no longer teach many of the sciences. Only the most basic. Things like, the earth is round and the earth travels around the sun. Very simple concepts.

No “deep” excursions into anything that touches on evolution including, biology, physiology, botany, paleontology, plate tectonics, astronomy, geology, “earth history”; and why not? Schools just don’t have the funds to fight the religious in courts. The pockets of the religious are deep if they believe they are doing “it” for God.

Look at the most recent example. Millions, possibly tens of millions spent to prevent gays from marrying. The vast majority of those that money came from will say they don’t know any gays. Have no gay friends. Those gays don’t impact their lives in any way, yet their marriages were “saved”. In religion, you don’t need things called facts. People will do anything if they believe they are doing it for God.

What is taught in middle school in other countries is only taught in college in this country. And not in every accredited college. In evangelical Christian colleges, only a very basic course in evolution is taught as an “elective”, otherwise they couldn’t get accreditation. Nearly all are rated tier 4, the lowest rating you can get and still be accredited. Tens of thousands of students that would normally be attending college are going to these institutions of lower learning.

Science today is met with skepticisms and suspicion. Many religious believe that scientists are in it only for the government grants. The most obvious and recent was the political football about money to study “fruit flies” and what a waste it is:

""""cientists at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Medicine have shown that a protein called neurexin is required for..nerve cell connections to form and function correctly.
The discovery, made in Drosophila fruit flies may lead to advances in understanding autism spectrum disorders, as recently, human neurexins have been identified as a genetic risk factor for autism.""""


What is the benefit of education? When people at political rallies call out for “jobs” or when politicians talk about “jobs”, what jobs are they talking about? Every single “job” in the US can follow a path back to science. Even working on an automobile assembly line, where does the design for that automobile come from?
Many on the right believe there is a divide between technology and science. That somehow they are not connected. Those on the right believe that scientific papers that pass peer review are actually being accepted on the basis of “politics” and that “peer review boards” are made up of liberals with a political agenda. They have no understanding how that works. What’s worse, they refuse to understand.

When people’s lives are built around “belief”, once that “belief” has been established, it is very difficult to change. They live in a world of absolutes, black or white, right or wrong. There is no room for compromise.

Now here comes the obvious question, “Why don’t scientists fight back? After all, aren’t they so intelligent?”

The reason is quite simple. To become a respected scientist takes years. Because our lives are so short, scientists are very dedicated. They may not contribute until they are 50 or 60 years old spending all those years just learning. A 10 year old can earn an Academy Award. A 9 year old can have a number one record, or paint, or play the piano.
The average age is 67 for those that win the Nobel award in economics. The youngest average is for physics where the average age is 52. Then, there is the John Bates Clark medal, passed out to the best researcher 40. You see? No 9 or 10 year olds.

Just to show how little the right understands science, there are those that believe there are pre teen scientists on the level of Nobel Prize winners.

The bottom line is that scientists simply don’t have the time to attempt the change the closed minds of those who believe science itself, is a religion.

To be continued.

Watching Leftist TV is better than a whole troupe of monkeys with little hats and unicycles.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nobody said teaching creationism... but simply stating (and factually) that evolution is a theory and is in no way being taught in some attempt to question anyone's particular religious faith, would suffice

I think that's exactly how it should be handled. And that's exactly how it was taught to me in high school. Same with my daughter.

Incidentally, some Christian private schools teach evolution.

Why shouldn't they? Atheists need evolution to be true, but Christians don't need it to be false.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Ring sure you can if you've got an opinion.

Dis, I guess I am just interested in the extremists because they are the ones who don't seem to understand the seperation of Church and State.

Separation of Church and State does not exist. The Constitution only bars the Federal Government from establishing a Government run religion or endorsing a religion as a State religion.

Why is it people like you think you have the right to force people to NOT pray in school? Why is it people like you think that someone praying is somehow forcing you to participate in religion? Perhaps you can answer that?

Why is it people like you think you have the right to destroy historical precedent in this Country? To force the removal of statues and monuments in this country? To try and prevent people on their own time from practicing their religion?

ENDORCE must be a word you are not completely familiar with. If the gov't allows CHRISTIAN sybols to be placed on PUBLIC property then they are ENDORSING.

Maybe he's having trouble with the word "endorse" because it doesn't actually appear in the written law anywhere. I don't recall the Constitution saying, "Congress and lesser governments shall make no law endorsing religion." Maybe it's in the "penumbras and emanations"?

 

[JakeStarkey]

You have no Constitutional "right" to have the state sanction the preaching of organized religious doctrine in school.

You seem to claim the right to have schools free of anything you disagree with... many conservatives strongly diasgree with the notion of teaching homosexuality as normal.. yet we are told to get over it.

So.. GET OVER IT!

The Constitution is not on your side, Soggy, never will be.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The far religious rightists are in good part why McCain-Palin got whipped. As long as the GOP allow the Palinistas any say in the party, it will continue to get whipped.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The second one is a fact, but it is not indicative of anything relating to the GOP. Benedict is just a hardass who generally approves of hardassry in his subordinates. If a rare GOP pro-choice pol were to show up for Communion, I doubt his party label would create an exception for him.

I would actually agree more with the principle behind #4, but would strongly caution that there are many reasons for bigotry and intolerance. Religion is one of them, but only one of many and in more cases than not a convenient excuse. You're also overgeneralizing in a major way. What about the Episcopalians, United Methodists and other denominations that welcome and even ordain homosexuals?

not with the way he editorialized on the end of it

For some reason I can't fathom, when Republicans are confronted with their party platform, they either deny it or say it's an over generalization.

The Republican Party ISN"T controlled by the evangelicals? Seriously? You are in denial. Perhaps you could do a little research? Hmmm?

You mean the way you "researched" to come up with that "Republican Party platform" out of your ass that has no relation to the actual platform of the Republican Party? That sort of "research"?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You have no Constitutional "right" to have the state sanction the preaching of organized religious doctrine in school.

You seem to claim the right to have schools free of anything you disagree with... many conservatives strongly diasgree with the notion of teaching homosexuality as normal.. yet we are told to get over it.

So.. GET OVER IT!

The Constitution is not on your side, Soggy, never will be.

Go ahead quote from the Constitution. I want you to SHOW ME the language you claim prevents children and staff from praying in school or having a minute of silence. Or the passage that bars the Government from building stuff with art work that may be religious in nature.

You may want to sue the Supreme Court since that building is loaded with such art work. Sue the Congress since they have chaplains lead a prayer before every session, sue the US Government for the Pledge of Alligiance and the money we spend, Sue the Constitution for invoking God.

 

[Cecilie1200]

again where does the bible say to pray?

1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

Thanks for asking.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well Dis thats my point.......Why would a TRUE CHRISTIAN spend money to fight a legal battel while there are HOMELESS and STARVING people in society. So yes I consider them "Christians"

Because there are some things more important thatn giving money to the poor. You'd understand this if you read the Gospels.

There are some things MORE important than caring for the poor and disadvantaged......Hm I wonder what Jesus would have to say about that?

He said, "For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always." Matthew 26:11, if you want to look it up.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I would like for some of you religious people to explain to me WHY you can't teach your kids about YOUR religion at home/church. Why is it you feel the need to PREACH to people who don't want to be a part of your religion(if I want to I will just look for the closest building with a cross). Why do you think YOUR religion should be in the PUBLIC square?

Why do YOU think anyone WANTS to "preach their religion to people who don't want to be part"?

And right back atcha. Maybe YOU can explain why so many people on the left think it's okay for THEM to use the schools to teach THEIR beliefs on things to other people's children. Why can't they just read their own kids "Heather Has Two Mommies" and teach them jihad games and Kwanzaa celebrations at home and leave other people out of it?

To Cecilie -- you can opt out of those things for your child. If you don't want multiculturalism, then opt out, or send your child to private school. You have no Constitutional "right" to have the state sanction the preaching of organized religious doctrine in school.

You never will have that "right".

Ahh. I see. So since I can put my children in private school - or homeschool them, as I actually do - THAT gives you and your ilk the right to preach your beliefs from the chalkboard in public schools. But somehow, the fact that YOU have the same "opt out" right DOESN'T give people YOU disagree with the same right to inject their beliefs.

So it's a hypocritical double-standard. Thanks for being so honest about it.

 

[rdean]

So you think Christians should be responsible for every homeless or starving person in the world? When did you become God, and get to decide how and what money should be spent on, and what should be displayed where? How do I sign up for that job? I'm DAMN good at telling people what to do, and I rock at spending money.

Dis the point is that if you put the display of the TEN COMMANDMENTS ahead of the SUFFERING of your fellow man then what does that say abouy YOU? What priority do you think CHRIST would have?

Sounds to me like you and others like you were the ones putting the Ten Commandments display ahead of the suffering of your fellow man. You could have just sat down, shut up, and ignored the display, instead of compelling your state to spend that money on fighting it, instead of spending it on homeless shelters. The Christians, on the other hand, were spending their own money. Clearly, YOU were the one who thought the homeless shelters could go hang when you needed that tax money to support your point of view.

If they are so "Christian", why aren't THEY spending it on the homeless?

 

[JakeStarkey]

You seem to claim the right to have schools free of anything you disagree with... many conservatives strongly diasgree with the notion of teaching homosexuality as normal.. yet we are told to get over it.

So.. GET OVER IT!

The Constitution is not on your side, Soggy, never will be.

Go ahead quote from the Constitution. I want you to SHOW ME the language you claim prevents children and staff from praying in school or having a minute of silence. Or the passage that bars the Government from building stuff with art work that may be religious in nature.

You may want to sue the Supreme Court since that building is loaded with such art work. Sue the Congress since they have chaplains lead a prayer before every session, sue the US Government for the Pledge of Alligiance and the money we spend, Sue the Constitution for invoking God.

Retired, drop and give me ten for opening your tired old reactionary mouth.

Go argue with the Supremes, and led by Chief Justice John Roberts, they will kick your tired old butt back to Camp Pendleton.

You are a disgrace to the Corps.

 

[rdean]

Why do YOU think anyone WANTS to "preach their religion to people who don't want to be part"?

And right back atcha. Maybe YOU can explain why so many people on the left think it's okay for THEM to use the schools to teach THEIR beliefs on things to other people's children. Why can't they just read their own kids "Heather Has Two Mommies" and teach them jihad games and Kwanzaa celebrations at home and leave other people out of it?

To Cecilie -- you can opt out of those things for your child. If you don't want multiculturalism, then opt out, or send your child to private school. You have no Constitutional "right" to have the state sanction the preaching of organized religious doctrine in school.

You never will have that "right".

Ahh. I see. So since I can put my children in private school - or homeschool them, as I actually do - THAT gives you and your ilk the right to preach your beliefs from the chalkboard in public schools. But somehow, the fact that YOU have the same "opt out" right DOESN'T give people YOU disagree with the same right to inject their beliefs.

So it's a hypocritical double-standard. Thanks for being so honest about it.

You "home-school" your children? Taught them everything you know in less than an hour?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I wonder in Ceecee's home school if she covers Homer, Sumeria, Hammurabi, Aristotle, Mycenae, Crete, the civilizations of the Indus and Yellow rivers, classical Greece and the Republic and Empire of Rome, and, oh, several dozen vitally important topics to understanding western civilization?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Dis the point is that if you put the display of the TEN COMMANDMENTS ahead of the SUFFERING of your fellow man then what does that say abouy YOU? What priority do you think CHRIST would have?

Sounds to me like you and others like you were the ones putting the Ten Commandments display ahead of the suffering of your fellow man. You could have just sat down, shut up, and ignored the display, instead of compelling your state to spend that money on fighting it, instead of spending it on homeless shelters. The Christians, on the other hand, were spending their own money. Clearly, YOU were the one who thought the homeless shelters could go hang when you needed that tax money to support your point of view.

If they are so "Christian", why aren't THEY spending it on the homeless?

I tell you what, Sparky. When you "compassionate" leftists come even CLOSE to spending as much of your own personal money - not tax dollars you've stolen from your neighbors at the point of the government's gun - on the poor and downtrodden as Christians routinely do, MAYBE I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say about how they should practice their religion. But I doubt it, because I'm fairly certain it will still be akin to listening to a virgin give sex lessons.

One more time for the thinking-impaired in the audience: who the hell are YOU to define what other people's priorities ought to be with their own frigging money? For people who don't want to have Christian beliefs forced on them, you sure are quick to try to force YOUR beliefs onto Christianity, you freaking hypocrites.

 

[JakeStarkey]

If I remember right a Christian couple were put to death by their lies to Peter about how they spent their money. I commend Acts 4 and 5 to all here, and then might you consider CeeCee's hypocrisy.

 

[Cecilie1200]

To Cecilie -- you can opt out of those things for your child. If you don't want multiculturalism, then opt out, or send your child to private school. You have no Constitutional "right" to have the state sanction the preaching of organized religious doctrine in school.

You never will have that "right".

Ahh. I see. So since I can put my children in private school - or homeschool them, as I actually do - THAT gives you and your ilk the right to preach your beliefs from the chalkboard in public schools. But somehow, the fact that YOU have the same "opt out" right DOESN'T give people YOU disagree with the same right to inject their beliefs.

So it's a hypocritical double-standard. Thanks for being so honest about it.

You "home-school" your children? Taught them everything you know in less than an hour?

No, that would be everything YOU know. And then it would take me TWO hours to undo the damage so I could teach them the truth.