Sarah Brady has died

[2aguy]

...Yet they fight ever piece of sensible legislation to identify those who should not be armed and verify whether a potential gun buyer is not allowed

I'm gonna hate myself in the morning but I have to agree with this much, anyway.

Except it isn't true Condor...criminals get their guns by stealing them or by getting someone who can pass a background check to get the gun for them......and that is with the current background check system....and these methods used will also get around so called "universal background checks" the minute they would be in place....so not one criminal would be stopped.....but...law abiding citizens would now have a further restriction on their right....having done nothing to have that imposition placed on them.....

And on top of that...by creating so called Universal Background checks that will do absolutely nothing to stop one criminal from getting a gun....anti gunners tighten the noose a little more.....they will then come back and say.....gee.....criminals are still getting guns from friends and family who can pass background checks...and from stealing guns....so next, they will say that "common sense" gun control now means background checks between family and friends.....and again...that won't stop crime and they will finally go for the jewel in the gun control crown.....Gun Registration....since that is the only way to pretend to get Universal Background checks to work.....

And of course it won't....because criminals will still get their guns from family members who can pass background checks and they won't register their illegal guns....they are in fact Constitutionally protected from registering their guns due to the Haynes Decision in the Supreme Court......

So gun murders will still occur...and the next step.....banning guns.......

So he is wrong Condor....we aren't against stopping criminals.....it is just that the plans of anti gunners have nothing to do with stopping criminals and gun crime.....since none of their laws stop criminals and gun crime......

 

[Kondor3]

...Yet they fight ever piece of sensible legislation to identify those who should not be armed and verify whether a potential gun buyer is not allowed

I'm gonna hate myself in the morning but I have to agree with this much, anyway.

Except it isn't true Condor...criminals get their guns by stealing them or by getting someone who can pass a background check to get the gun for them......and that is with the current background check system....and these methods used will also get around so called "universal background checks" the minute they would be in place....so not one criminal would be stopped.....but...law abiding citizens would now have a further restriction on their right....having done nothing to have that imposition placed on them.....

And on top of that...by creating so called Universal Background checks that will do absolutely nothing to stop one criminal from getting a gun....anti gunners tighten the noose a little more.....they will then come back and say.....gee.....criminals are still getting guns from friends and family who can pass background checks...and from stealing guns....so next, they will say that "common sense" gun control now means background checks between family and friends.....and again...that won't stop crime and they will finally go for the jewel in the gun control crown.....Gun Registration....since that is the only way to pretend to get Universal Background checks to work.....

And of course it won't....because criminals will still get their guns from family members who can pass background checks and they won't register their illegal guns....they are in fact Constitutionally protected from registering their guns due to the Haynes Decision in the Supreme Court......

So gun murders will still occur...and the next step.....banning guns.......

So he is wrong Condor....we aren't against stopping criminals.....it is just that the plans of anti gunners have nothing to do with stopping criminals and gun crime.....since none of their laws stop criminals and gun crime......

Personally, if I were King of the World, I would arrange the following...

1. National Database for the Registration of Firearms - at the Factory, and then the movement of individual firearms through the wholesale, retail and personal possession chains.

2. National Database of Personal Licenses to Carry FIrearms.

3. National Standards for the screening of potential licensees (criminal or psychiatric impairment history, dishonorable discharge, citizenship status, training, etc.).

4. National Standards for Licensing (nature of issuing authorities, identification required, background checking, revocation scenarios, etc.).

5. National Standards for Sale, Transfer-of-Possession and Disposal/Disposition of Firearms.

6. Mandatory usage of National Databases for all Firearms -related information and licensing and transactions.

7. Teeth in the Law - a transitional Grace Period, to work the kinks out and to grandfather-in everything out there already, then, severe and draconian penalties for violations.

8 Allowing large-capacity magazines and automatic weapons, at the discretion of individual jurisdictions - preserving an element of Home Rule in the matter.

There are a hundred and one barriers to any of that, of course - they say the Devil is in the Details - but the time has probably come to stop phukking around with this, get it done, and Devil take the hindmost - freeing-up vast energy currently spent at cross-purposes, spanning large numbers of jurisdictions having different rules and requirements.

Once done, we still have a heavily and bravely armed citizenry, but we know who the owners are, and where the guns are, and anyone caught outside that system then gets his head handed to him on a platter, metaphorically - going to jail for a very, very, very long time - no exceptions.

How well would such a thing work? Dunno. It's never been tried before. And the technology has caught up to the situation. Maybe the time is right to try.

 

[pismoe]

and obviously , it'd all be government run ehh 'kondor' ??

 

[Kondor3]

and obviously , it'd all be government run ehh 'kondor' ??

Yes.

State governments already run the firearms licensing within their individual jurisdictions.

They could continue to do that under a mandated Federal Standards and Databases scenario.

It's just that they'd all have to play from the same set of standards, and input-into and inquire-from a centralized nationwide database, so that all of our citizenry, coast to coast, in all 50 States, could count on identical or similar treatment with respect to requirements, licensure, possession, etc., regardless of which jurisdiction they reside or travel within.

Hell, a lot of States already have State-wide systems akin to what I described above.

A Federal program in that same vein merely levels the playing field and also happily raises the standards for some of those States presently having weaker licensing requirements.

I'm sure that there are a hundred barriers and a hundred ways to object over such a proposal, but such a proposal also has a very great deal to commend it.

 

[2aguy]

...Yet they fight ever piece of sensible legislation to identify those who should not be armed and verify whether a potential gun buyer is not allowed

I'm gonna hate myself in the morning but I have to agree with this much, anyway.

Except it isn't true Condor...criminals get their guns by stealing them or by getting someone who can pass a background check to get the gun for them......and that is with the current background check system....and these methods used will also get around so called "universal background checks" the minute they would be in place....so not one criminal would be stopped.....but...law abiding citizens would now have a further restriction on their right....having done nothing to have that imposition placed on them.....

And on top of that...by creating so called Universal Background checks that will do absolutely nothing to stop one criminal from getting a gun....anti gunners tighten the noose a little more.....they will then come back and say.....gee.....criminals are still getting guns from friends and family who can pass background checks...and from stealing guns....so next, they will say that "common sense" gun control now means background checks between family and friends.....and again...that won't stop crime and they will finally go for the jewel in the gun control crown.....Gun Registration....since that is the only way to pretend to get Universal Background checks to work.....

And of course it won't....because criminals will still get their guns from family members who can pass background checks and they won't register their illegal guns....they are in fact Constitutionally protected from registering their guns due to the Haynes Decision in the Supreme Court......

So gun murders will still occur...and the next step.....banning guns.......

So he is wrong Condor....we aren't against stopping criminals.....it is just that the plans of anti gunners have nothing to do with stopping criminals and gun crime.....since none of their laws stop criminals and gun crime......

Personally, if I were King of the World, I would arrange the following...

1. National Database for the Registration of Firearms - at the Factory, and then the movement of individual firearms through the wholesale, retail and personal possession chains.

2. National Database of Personal Licenses to Carry FIrearms.

3. National Standards for the screening of potential licensees (criminal or psychiatric impairment history, dishonorable discharge, citizenship status, training, etc.).

4. National Standards for Licensing (nature of issuing authorities, identification required, background checking, revocation scenarios, etc.).

5. National Standards for Sale, Transfer-of-Possession and Disposal/Disposition of Firearms.

6. Mandatory usage of National Databases for all Firearms -related information and licensing and transactions.

7. Teeth in the Law - a transitional Grace Period, to work the kinks out and to grandfather-in everything out there already, then, severe and draconian penalties for violations.

8 Allowing large-capacity magazines and automatic weapons, at the discretion of individual jurisdictions - preserving an element of Home Rule in the matter.

There are a hundred and one barriers to any of that, of course - they say the Devil is in the Details - but the time has probably come to stop phukking around with this, get it done, and Devil take the hindmost - freeing-up vast energy currently spent at cross-purposes, spanning large numbers of jurisdictions having different rules and requirements.

Once done, we still have a heavily and bravely armed citizenry, but we know who the owners are, and where the guns are, and anyone caught outside that system then gets his head handed to him on a platter, metaphorically - going to jail for a very, very, very long time - no exceptions.

How well would such a thing work? Dunno. It's never been tried before. And the technology has caught up to the situation. Maybe the time is right to try.

And sadly, most of your ideas are wrong headed.......

You lost me at National Data base for the registration of firearms....which is the 2nd to last step that is used for banning some or all guns........so I would fight that tooth and nail....

but we know who the owners are,

And therefore they will easily be disarmed when the political will exists......there is no need to know who has these guns....when you catch someone breaking the law with a gun...you know who broke the law with that gun...if you catch a felon in possession of a gun, in his home, car or on his person...you can already arrest them since it is already against the law for them to posses any gun, of any kind.....

And that does not require knowing which law abiding citizens have the guns......

 

[2aguy]

and obviously , it'd all be government run ehh 'kondor' ??

Yes.

State governments already run the firearms licensing within their individual jurisdictions.

They could continue to do that under a mandated Federal Standards and Databases scenario.

It's just that they'd all have to play from the same set of standards, and input-into and inquire-from a centralized nationwide database, so that all of our citizenry, coast to coast, in all 50 States, could count on identical or similar treatment with respect to requirements, licensure, possession, etc., regardless of which jurisdiction they reside or travel within.

Hell, a lot of States already have State-wide systems akin to what I described above.

A Federal program in that same vein merely levels the playing field and also happily raises the standards for some of those States presently having weaker licensing requirements.

I'm sure that there are a hundred barriers and a hundred ways to object over such a proposal, but such a proposal also has a very great deal to commend it.

There is just one objection to this....the 2nd Amendment.....that trumps all others....there is no need to know which law abiding citizens own what guns, and no way to stop criminals from getting their hands on guns....

The best gun control...when you catch a criminal using a gun to commit a crime or you catch a felon in possession of a gun.....you arrest them and put them in prison for 10-20 years....

That actually works....everything else you mentioned...doesn't work.....except on law abiding citizens who would obey the laws....but they aren't the problem are they....

 

[Kondor3]

...Yet they fight ever piece of sensible legislation to identify those who should not be armed and verify whether a potential gun buyer is not allowed

I'm gonna hate myself in the morning but I have to agree with this much, anyway.

Except it isn't true Condor...criminals get their guns by stealing them or by getting someone who can pass a background check to get the gun for them......and that is with the current background check system....and these methods used will also get around so called "universal background checks" the minute they would be in place....so not one criminal would be stopped.....but...law abiding citizens would now have a further restriction on their right....having done nothing to have that imposition placed on them.....

And on top of that...by creating so called Universal Background checks that will do absolutely nothing to stop one criminal from getting a gun....anti gunners tighten the noose a little more.....they will then come back and say.....gee.....criminals are still getting guns from friends and family who can pass background checks...and from stealing guns....so next, they will say that "common sense" gun control now means background checks between family and friends.....and again...that won't stop crime and they will finally go for the jewel in the gun control crown.....Gun Registration....since that is the only way to pretend to get Universal Background checks to work.....

And of course it won't....because criminals will still get their guns from family members who can pass background checks and they won't register their illegal guns....they are in fact Constitutionally protected from registering their guns due to the Haynes Decision in the Supreme Court......

So gun murders will still occur...and the next step.....banning guns.......

So he is wrong Condor....we aren't against stopping criminals.....it is just that the plans of anti gunners have nothing to do with stopping criminals and gun crime.....since none of their laws stop criminals and gun crime......

Personally, if I were King of the World, I would arrange the following...

1. National Database for the Registration of Firearms - at the Factory, and then the movement of individual firearms through the wholesale, retail and personal possession chains.

2. National Database of Personal Licenses to Carry FIrearms.

3. National Standards for the screening of potential licensees (criminal or psychiatric impairment history, dishonorable discharge, citizenship status, training, etc.).

4. National Standards for Licensing (nature of issuing authorities, identification required, background checking, revocation scenarios, etc.).

5. National Standards for Sale, Transfer-of-Possession and Disposal/Disposition of Firearms.

6. Mandatory usage of National Databases for all Firearms -related information and licensing and transactions.

7. Teeth in the Law - a transitional Grace Period, to work the kinks out and to grandfather-in everything out there already, then, severe and draconian penalties for violations.

8 Allowing large-capacity magazines and automatic weapons, at the discretion of individual jurisdictions - preserving an element of Home Rule in the matter.

There are a hundred and one barriers to any of that, of course - they say the Devil is in the Details - but the time has probably come to stop phukking around with this, get it done, and Devil take the hindmost - freeing-up vast energy currently spent at cross-purposes, spanning large numbers of jurisdictions having different rules and requirements.

Once done, we still have a heavily and bravely armed citizenry, but we know who the owners are, and where the guns are, and anyone caught outside that system then gets his head handed to him on a platter, metaphorically - going to jail for a very, very, very long time - no exceptions.

How well would such a thing work? Dunno. It's never been tried before. And the technology has caught up to the situation. Maybe the time is right to try.

And sadly, most of your ideas are wrong headed.......

You lost me at National Data base for the registration of firearms....which is the 2nd to last step that is used for banning some or all guns........so I would fight that tooth and nail....

but we know who the owners are,

And therefore they will easily be disarmed when the political will exists......there is no need to know who has these guns....when you catch someone breaking the law with a gun...you know who broke the law with that gun...if you catch a felon in possession of a gun, in his home, car or on his person...you can already arrest them since it is already against the law for them to posses any gun, of any kind.....

And that does not require knowing which law abiding citizens have the guns......

Well, that's one 'No' vote, I take it...

 

[2aguy]

If I was just King of the United States....there would be a national carry law ...all law abiding citizens could carry a gun, open or concealed,their choice, in any state of the union.

People who use guns for a crime would have 10-20 years added to their sentence....

Felons caught with a gun would be arrested and sentenced to 10-20 years ....

that is how you stop gun crime...everything else is a waste of time....

 

[Kondor3]

and obviously , it'd all be government run ehh 'kondor' ??

Yes.

State governments already run the firearms licensing within their individual jurisdictions.

They could continue to do that under a mandated Federal Standards and Databases scenario.

It's just that they'd all have to play from the same set of standards, and input-into and inquire-from a centralized nationwide database, so that all of our citizenry, coast to coast, in all 50 States, could count on identical or similar treatment with respect to requirements, licensure, possession, etc., regardless of which jurisdiction they reside or travel within.

Hell, a lot of States already have State-wide systems akin to what I described above.

A Federal program in that same vein merely levels the playing field and also happily raises the standards for some of those States presently having weaker licensing requirements.

I'm sure that there are a hundred barriers and a hundred ways to object over such a proposal, but such a proposal also has a very great deal to commend it.

There is just one objection to this....the 2nd Amendment.....that trumps all others....there is no need to know which law abiding citizens own what guns, and no way to stop criminals from getting their hands on guns....

The best gun control...when you catch a criminal using a gun to commit a crime or you catch a felon in possession of a gun.....you arrest them and put them in prison for 10-20 years....

That actually works....everything else you mentioned...doesn't work.....except on law abiding citizens who would obey the laws....but they aren't the problem are they....

And that's two 'No' votes...

 

[2aguy]

...Yet they fight ever piece of sensible legislation to identify those who should not be armed and verify whether a potential gun buyer is not allowed

I'm gonna hate myself in the morning but I have to agree with this much, anyway.

Except it isn't true Condor...criminals get their guns by stealing them or by getting someone who can pass a background check to get the gun for them......and that is with the current background check system....and these methods used will also get around so called "universal background checks" the minute they would be in place....so not one criminal would be stopped.....but...law abiding citizens would now have a further restriction on their right....having done nothing to have that imposition placed on them.....

And on top of that...by creating so called Universal Background checks that will do absolutely nothing to stop one criminal from getting a gun....anti gunners tighten the noose a little more.....they will then come back and say.....gee.....criminals are still getting guns from friends and family who can pass background checks...and from stealing guns....so next, they will say that "common sense" gun control now means background checks between family and friends.....and again...that won't stop crime and they will finally go for the jewel in the gun control crown.....Gun Registration....since that is the only way to pretend to get Universal Background checks to work.....

And of course it won't....because criminals will still get their guns from family members who can pass background checks and they won't register their illegal guns....they are in fact Constitutionally protected from registering their guns due to the Haynes Decision in the Supreme Court......

So gun murders will still occur...and the next step.....banning guns.......

So he is wrong Condor....we aren't against stopping criminals.....it is just that the plans of anti gunners have nothing to do with stopping criminals and gun crime.....since none of their laws stop criminals and gun crime......

Personally, if I were King of the World, I would arrange the following...

1. National Database for the Registration of Firearms - at the Factory, and then the movement of individual firearms through the wholesale, retail and personal possession chains.

2. National Database of Personal Licenses to Carry FIrearms.

3. National Standards for the screening of potential licensees (criminal or psychiatric impairment history, dishonorable discharge, citizenship status, training, etc.).

4. National Standards for Licensing (nature of issuing authorities, identification required, background checking, revocation scenarios, etc.).

5. National Standards for Sale, Transfer-of-Possession and Disposal/Disposition of Firearms.

6. Mandatory usage of National Databases for all Firearms -related information and licensing and transactions.

7. Teeth in the Law - a transitional Grace Period, to work the kinks out and to grandfather-in everything out there already, then, severe and draconian penalties for violations.

8 Allowing large-capacity magazines and automatic weapons, at the discretion of individual jurisdictions - preserving an element of Home Rule in the matter.

There are a hundred and one barriers to any of that, of course - they say the Devil is in the Details - but the time has probably come to stop phukking around with this, get it done, and Devil take the hindmost - freeing-up vast energy currently spent at cross-purposes, spanning large numbers of jurisdictions having different rules and requirements.

Once done, we still have a heavily and bravely armed citizenry, but we know who the owners are, and where the guns are, and anyone caught outside that system then gets his head handed to him on a platter, metaphorically - going to jail for a very, very, very long time - no exceptions.

How well would such a thing work? Dunno. It's never been tried before. And the technology has caught up to the situation. Maybe the time is right to try.

And sadly, most of your ideas are wrong headed.......

You lost me at National Data base for the registration of firearms....which is the 2nd to last step that is used for banning some or all guns........so I would fight that tooth and nail....

but we know who the owners are,

And therefore they will easily be disarmed when the political will exists......there is no need to know who has these guns....when you catch someone breaking the law with a gun...you know who broke the law with that gun...if you catch a felon in possession of a gun, in his home, car or on his person...you can already arrest them since it is already against the law for them to posses any gun, of any kind.....

And that does not require knowing which law abiding citizens have the guns......

Well, that's one 'No' vote, I take it...

I understand what you are trying to do Kondor...you just have to think about it a little more.....felons in every state can't own or carry guns......yet we have 8-9,000 gun murders each year.....

Mass shooters already can't carry guns into gun free zones or use them to shoot innocent people...yet they pass background checks or steal the guns, and carry them into federal gun free zones.....

 

[Kondor3]

I'm gonna hate myself in the morning but I have to agree with this much, anyway.

Except it isn't true Condor...criminals get their guns by stealing them or by getting someone who can pass a background check to get the gun for them......and that is with the current background check system....and these methods used will also get around so called "universal background checks" the minute they would be in place....so not one criminal would be stopped.....but...law abiding citizens would now have a further restriction on their right....having done nothing to have that imposition placed on them.....

And on top of that...by creating so called Universal Background checks that will do absolutely nothing to stop one criminal from getting a gun....anti gunners tighten the noose a little more.....they will then come back and say.....gee.....criminals are still getting guns from friends and family who can pass background checks...and from stealing guns....so next, they will say that "common sense" gun control now means background checks between family and friends.....and again...that won't stop crime and they will finally go for the jewel in the gun control crown.....Gun Registration....since that is the only way to pretend to get Universal Background checks to work.....

And of course it won't....because criminals will still get their guns from family members who can pass background checks and they won't register their illegal guns....they are in fact Constitutionally protected from registering their guns due to the Haynes Decision in the Supreme Court......

So gun murders will still occur...and the next step.....banning guns.......

So he is wrong Condor....we aren't against stopping criminals.....it is just that the plans of anti gunners have nothing to do with stopping criminals and gun crime.....since none of their laws stop criminals and gun crime......

Personally, if I were King of the World, I would arrange the following...

1. National Database for the Registration of Firearms - at the Factory, and then the movement of individual firearms through the wholesale, retail and personal possession chains.

2. National Database of Personal Licenses to Carry FIrearms.

3. National Standards for the screening of potential licensees (criminal or psychiatric impairment history, dishonorable discharge, citizenship status, training, etc.).

4. National Standards for Licensing (nature of issuing authorities, identification required, background checking, revocation scenarios, etc.).

5. National Standards for Sale, Transfer-of-Possession and Disposal/Disposition of Firearms.

6. Mandatory usage of National Databases for all Firearms -related information and licensing and transactions.

7. Teeth in the Law - a transitional Grace Period, to work the kinks out and to grandfather-in everything out there already, then, severe and draconian penalties for violations.

8 Allowing large-capacity magazines and automatic weapons, at the discretion of individual jurisdictions - preserving an element of Home Rule in the matter.

There are a hundred and one barriers to any of that, of course - they say the Devil is in the Details - but the time has probably come to stop phukking around with this, get it done, and Devil take the hindmost - freeing-up vast energy currently spent at cross-purposes, spanning large numbers of jurisdictions having different rules and requirements.

Once done, we still have a heavily and bravely armed citizenry, but we know who the owners are, and where the guns are, and anyone caught outside that system then gets his head handed to him on a platter, metaphorically - going to jail for a very, very, very long time - no exceptions.

How well would such a thing work? Dunno. It's never been tried before. And the technology has caught up to the situation. Maybe the time is right to try.

And sadly, most of your ideas are wrong headed.......

You lost me at National Data base for the registration of firearms....which is the 2nd to last step that is used for banning some or all guns........so I would fight that tooth and nail....

but we know who the owners are,

And therefore they will easily be disarmed when the political will exists......there is no need to know who has these guns....when you catch someone breaking the law with a gun...you know who broke the law with that gun...if you catch a felon in possession of a gun, in his home, car or on his person...you can already arrest them since it is already against the law for them to posses any gun, of any kind.....

And that does not require knowing which law abiding citizens have the guns......

Well, that's one 'No' vote, I take it...

I understand what you are trying to do Kondor...you just have to think about it a little more.....felons in every state can't own or carry guns......yet we have 8-9,000 gun murders each year.....

Mass shooters already can't carry guns into gun free zones or use them to shoot innocent people...yet they pass background checks or steal the guns, and carry them into federal gun free zones.....

Once we can trace a firearm from manufacturer to usage, including all its past legal possessors, we will have a far more accountable and careful public, in that regard.

If you're a licensed gun-owner, and you give your idiot cousin a gun (or if he steals it and you don't report it), and he sticks-up a gas station with it, then he's screwed, and you're not far behind, because you empowered him.

Accountability is one of several key arguments in favor of centralized registration and licensure data tracking, if it results in far fewer guns getting loose in the wild, for fear of judgment in an 'accountability' context.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

But this is a matter for We The People to decide together.

My money is on some-such thing materializing in the not-too-distant future, as a compromise between Gun Rights Folk and Gun Grabbers, in order to put this noisy and bothersome and energy-consuming argument to rest in this country, once and for all.

 

[2aguy]

Once we can trace a firearm from manufacturer to usage, including all its past legal possessors, we will have a far more accountable and careful public, in that regard.

Except...if your cousin is not a felon...and you give him the gun....it is not your fault and you are not liable if he uses it to break the law.....much like if you lend him your car or he steals it....you are not a co defendant because he used your car....

Also...guns used by criminals are gotten by stealing them....so even if you know who the original owner is...it gives you nothing on the actual criminal if you find it at the crime scene...right?

And the guns passed to felons by freinds and family members...when they are used by the felon who commits the crime, 1) they don't care if the family member goes to prison, since they already didn't care about putting them on the hook for giving a felon a gun in the first place and 2) the family member, and this is backed up by law enforcement, will call in a stolen gun once they pass it to a criminal family member, many times a gang member.....

So the entire gun registration regime does absolutely nothing to solve crimes or prevent them....and law enforcement will tell you...the cost, the man hours and resources to keep track of over 320 million guns in private hands...is impossible from the get go...it just would not work.......and if fact does not work in the states that already require it....

So again...nice idea (not really but the intentions are good) but it doesn't do anything to address the problem, and again...puts law abiding citizens on the hook for crimes they didn't commit....

 

[2aguy]

Except it isn't true Condor...criminals get their guns by stealing them or by getting someone who can pass a background check to get the gun for them......and that is with the current background check system....and these methods used will also get around so called "universal background checks" the minute they would be in place....so not one criminal would be stopped.....but...law abiding citizens would now have a further restriction on their right....having done nothing to have that imposition placed on them.....

And on top of that...by creating so called Universal Background checks that will do absolutely nothing to stop one criminal from getting a gun....anti gunners tighten the noose a little more.....they will then come back and say.....gee.....criminals are still getting guns from friends and family who can pass background checks...and from stealing guns....so next, they will say that "common sense" gun control now means background checks between family and friends.....and again...that won't stop crime and they will finally go for the jewel in the gun control crown.....Gun Registration....since that is the only way to pretend to get Universal Background checks to work.....

And of course it won't....because criminals will still get their guns from family members who can pass background checks and they won't register their illegal guns....they are in fact Constitutionally protected from registering their guns due to the Haynes Decision in the Supreme Court......

So gun murders will still occur...and the next step.....banning guns.......

So he is wrong Condor....we aren't against stopping criminals.....it is just that the plans of anti gunners have nothing to do with stopping criminals and gun crime.....since none of their laws stop criminals and gun crime......

Personally, if I were King of the World, I would arrange the following...

1. National Database for the Registration of Firearms - at the Factory, and then the movement of individual firearms through the wholesale, retail and personal possession chains.

2. National Database of Personal Licenses to Carry FIrearms.

3. National Standards for the screening of potential licensees (criminal or psychiatric impairment history, dishonorable discharge, citizenship status, training, etc.).

4. National Standards for Licensing (nature of issuing authorities, identification required, background checking, revocation scenarios, etc.).

5. National Standards for Sale, Transfer-of-Possession and Disposal/Disposition of Firearms.

6. Mandatory usage of National Databases for all Firearms -related information and licensing and transactions.

7. Teeth in the Law - a transitional Grace Period, to work the kinks out and to grandfather-in everything out there already, then, severe and draconian penalties for violations.

8 Allowing large-capacity magazines and automatic weapons, at the discretion of individual jurisdictions - preserving an element of Home Rule in the matter.

There are a hundred and one barriers to any of that, of course - they say the Devil is in the Details - but the time has probably come to stop phukking around with this, get it done, and Devil take the hindmost - freeing-up vast energy currently spent at cross-purposes, spanning large numbers of jurisdictions having different rules and requirements.

Once done, we still have a heavily and bravely armed citizenry, but we know who the owners are, and where the guns are, and anyone caught outside that system then gets his head handed to him on a platter, metaphorically - going to jail for a very, very, very long time - no exceptions.

How well would such a thing work? Dunno. It's never been tried before. And the technology has caught up to the situation. Maybe the time is right to try.

And sadly, most of your ideas are wrong headed.......

You lost me at National Data base for the registration of firearms....which is the 2nd to last step that is used for banning some or all guns........so I would fight that tooth and nail....

but we know who the owners are,

And therefore they will easily be disarmed when the political will exists......there is no need to know who has these guns....when you catch someone breaking the law with a gun...you know who broke the law with that gun...if you catch a felon in possession of a gun, in his home, car or on his person...you can already arrest them since it is already against the law for them to posses any gun, of any kind.....

And that does not require knowing which law abiding citizens have the guns......

Well, that's one 'No' vote, I take it...

I understand what you are trying to do Kondor...you just have to think about it a little more.....felons in every state can't own or carry guns......yet we have 8-9,000 gun murders each year.....

Mass shooters already can't carry guns into gun free zones or use them to shoot innocent people...yet they pass background checks or steal the guns, and carry them into federal gun free zones.....

Once we can trace a firearm from manufacturer to usage, including all its past legal possessors, we will have a far more accountable and careful public, in that regard.

If you're a licensed gun-owner, and you give your idiot cousin a gun (or if he steals it and you don't report it), and he sticks-up a gas station with it, then he's screwed, and you're not far behind, because you empowered him.

Accountability is one of several key arguments in favor of centralized registration and licensure data tracking, if it results in far fewer guns getting loose in the wild, for fear of judgment in an 'accountability' context.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

But this is a matter for We The People to decide together.

My money is on some-such thing materializing in the not-too-distant future, as a compromise between Gun Rights Folk and Gun Grabbers, in order to put this noisy and bothersome and energy-consuming argument to rest in this country, once and for all.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

Did you know that because of the Haynes decision...actual felons are not required to register their illegal guns...due to the protection against self incrimination...yet law abiding citizens could be made to register their guns....

Is that what you intend with your laws......

 

[Kondor3]

Once we can trace a firearm from manufacturer to usage, including all its past legal possessors, we will have a far more accountable and careful public, in that regard.

Except...if your cousin is not a felon...and you give him the gun....it is not your fault and you are not liable if he uses it to break the law.....much like if you lend him your car or he steals it....you are not a co defendant because he used your car....

Also...guns used by criminals are gotten by stealing them....so even if you know who the original owner is...it gives you nothing on the actual criminal if you find it at the crime scene...right?

And the guns passed to felons by freinds and family members...when they are used by the felon who commits the crime, 1) they don't care if the family member goes to prison, since they already didn't care about putting them on the hook for giving a felon a gun in the first place and 2) the family member, and this is backed up by law enforcement, will call in a stolen gun once they pass it to a criminal family member, many times a gang member.....

So the entire gun registration regime does absolutely nothing to solve crimes or prevent them....and law enforcement will tell you...the cost, the man hours and resources to keep track of over 320 million guns in private hands...is impossible from the get go...it just would not work.......and if fact does not work in the states that already require it....

So again...nice idea (not really but the intentions are good) but it doesn't do anything to address the problem, and again...puts law abiding citizens on the hook for crimes they didn't commit....

Well, the Devil's in the Details, alright, and there is no escaping the idea that such an approach would have to be hammered-out by consensus, to result in anything effective, with teeth, that also does not unfairly punish a gun-owner under such circumstances. There are all kinds of variations and permutations to be explored, in contemplating such an approach.

 

[2aguy]

Except it isn't true Condor...criminals get their guns by stealing them or by getting someone who can pass a background check to get the gun for them......and that is with the current background check system....and these methods used will also get around so called "universal background checks" the minute they would be in place....so not one criminal would be stopped.....but...law abiding citizens would now have a further restriction on their right....having done nothing to have that imposition placed on them.....

And on top of that...by creating so called Universal Background checks that will do absolutely nothing to stop one criminal from getting a gun....anti gunners tighten the noose a little more.....they will then come back and say.....gee.....criminals are still getting guns from friends and family who can pass background checks...and from stealing guns....so next, they will say that "common sense" gun control now means background checks between family and friends.....and again...that won't stop crime and they will finally go for the jewel in the gun control crown.....Gun Registration....since that is the only way to pretend to get Universal Background checks to work.....

And of course it won't....because criminals will still get their guns from family members who can pass background checks and they won't register their illegal guns....they are in fact Constitutionally protected from registering their guns due to the Haynes Decision in the Supreme Court......

So gun murders will still occur...and the next step.....banning guns.......

So he is wrong Condor....we aren't against stopping criminals.....it is just that the plans of anti gunners have nothing to do with stopping criminals and gun crime.....since none of their laws stop criminals and gun crime......

Personally, if I were King of the World, I would arrange the following...

1. National Database for the Registration of Firearms - at the Factory, and then the movement of individual firearms through the wholesale, retail and personal possession chains.

2. National Database of Personal Licenses to Carry FIrearms.

3. National Standards for the screening of potential licensees (criminal or psychiatric impairment history, dishonorable discharge, citizenship status, training, etc.).

4. National Standards for Licensing (nature of issuing authorities, identification required, background checking, revocation scenarios, etc.).

5. National Standards for Sale, Transfer-of-Possession and Disposal/Disposition of Firearms.

6. Mandatory usage of National Databases for all Firearms -related information and licensing and transactions.

7. Teeth in the Law - a transitional Grace Period, to work the kinks out and to grandfather-in everything out there already, then, severe and draconian penalties for violations.

8 Allowing large-capacity magazines and automatic weapons, at the discretion of individual jurisdictions - preserving an element of Home Rule in the matter.

There are a hundred and one barriers to any of that, of course - they say the Devil is in the Details - but the time has probably come to stop phukking around with this, get it done, and Devil take the hindmost - freeing-up vast energy currently spent at cross-purposes, spanning large numbers of jurisdictions having different rules and requirements.

Once done, we still have a heavily and bravely armed citizenry, but we know who the owners are, and where the guns are, and anyone caught outside that system then gets his head handed to him on a platter, metaphorically - going to jail for a very, very, very long time - no exceptions.

How well would such a thing work? Dunno. It's never been tried before. And the technology has caught up to the situation. Maybe the time is right to try.

And sadly, most of your ideas are wrong headed.......

You lost me at National Data base for the registration of firearms....which is the 2nd to last step that is used for banning some or all guns........so I would fight that tooth and nail....

but we know who the owners are,

And therefore they will easily be disarmed when the political will exists......there is no need to know who has these guns....when you catch someone breaking the law with a gun...you know who broke the law with that gun...if you catch a felon in possession of a gun, in his home, car or on his person...you can already arrest them since it is already against the law for them to posses any gun, of any kind.....

And that does not require knowing which law abiding citizens have the guns......

Well, that's one 'No' vote, I take it...

I understand what you are trying to do Kondor...you just have to think about it a little more.....felons in every state can't own or carry guns......yet we have 8-9,000 gun murders each year.....

Mass shooters already can't carry guns into gun free zones or use them to shoot innocent people...yet they pass background checks or steal the guns, and carry them into federal gun free zones.....

Once we can trace a firearm from manufacturer to usage, including all its past legal possessors, we will have a far more accountable and careful public, in that regard.

If you're a licensed gun-owner, and you give your idiot cousin a gun (or if he steals it and you don't report it), and he sticks-up a gas station with it, then he's screwed, and you're not far behind, because you empowered him.

Accountability is one of several key arguments in favor of centralized registration and licensure data tracking, if it results in far fewer guns getting loose in the wild, for fear of judgment in an 'accountability' context.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

But this is a matter for We The People to decide together.

My money is on some-such thing materializing in the not-too-distant future, as a compromise between Gun Rights Folk and Gun Grabbers, in order to put this noisy and bothersome and energy-consuming argument to rest in this country, once and for all.

I wouldn't count on it.....believers in the 2nd Amendment know that the first step to confiscation or banning guns is registration.....and it will be fought.....and the fact that registration will not stop any criminal from getting a gun is just the first problem with registration.....

Why would you push registration when it will do absolutely nothing to stop criminals from getting and using guns.....?

 

[Kondor3]

Personally, if I were King of the World, I would arrange the following...

1. National Database for the Registration of Firearms - at the Factory, and then the movement of individual firearms through the wholesale, retail and personal possession chains.

2. National Database of Personal Licenses to Carry FIrearms.

3. National Standards for the screening of potential licensees (criminal or psychiatric impairment history, dishonorable discharge, citizenship status, training, etc.).

4. National Standards for Licensing (nature of issuing authorities, identification required, background checking, revocation scenarios, etc.).

5. National Standards for Sale, Transfer-of-Possession and Disposal/Disposition of Firearms.

6. Mandatory usage of National Databases for all Firearms -related information and licensing and transactions.

7. Teeth in the Law - a transitional Grace Period, to work the kinks out and to grandfather-in everything out there already, then, severe and draconian penalties for violations.

8 Allowing large-capacity magazines and automatic weapons, at the discretion of individual jurisdictions - preserving an element of Home Rule in the matter.

There are a hundred and one barriers to any of that, of course - they say the Devil is in the Details - but the time has probably come to stop phukking around with this, get it done, and Devil take the hindmost - freeing-up vast energy currently spent at cross-purposes, spanning large numbers of jurisdictions having different rules and requirements.

Once done, we still have a heavily and bravely armed citizenry, but we know who the owners are, and where the guns are, and anyone caught outside that system then gets his head handed to him on a platter, metaphorically - going to jail for a very, very, very long time - no exceptions.

How well would such a thing work? Dunno. It's never been tried before. And the technology has caught up to the situation. Maybe the time is right to try.

And sadly, most of your ideas are wrong headed.......

You lost me at National Data base for the registration of firearms....which is the 2nd to last step that is used for banning some or all guns........so I would fight that tooth and nail....

but we know who the owners are,

And therefore they will easily be disarmed when the political will exists......there is no need to know who has these guns....when you catch someone breaking the law with a gun...you know who broke the law with that gun...if you catch a felon in possession of a gun, in his home, car or on his person...you can already arrest them since it is already against the law for them to posses any gun, of any kind.....

And that does not require knowing which law abiding citizens have the guns......

Well, that's one 'No' vote, I take it...

I understand what you are trying to do Kondor...you just have to think about it a little more.....felons in every state can't own or carry guns......yet we have 8-9,000 gun murders each year.....

Mass shooters already can't carry guns into gun free zones or use them to shoot innocent people...yet they pass background checks or steal the guns, and carry them into federal gun free zones.....

Once we can trace a firearm from manufacturer to usage, including all its past legal possessors, we will have a far more accountable and careful public, in that regard.

If you're a licensed gun-owner, and you give your idiot cousin a gun (or if he steals it and you don't report it), and he sticks-up a gas station with it, then he's screwed, and you're not far behind, because you empowered him.

Accountability is one of several key arguments in favor of centralized registration and licensure data tracking, if it results in far fewer guns getting loose in the wild, for fear of judgment in an 'accountability' context.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

But this is a matter for We The People to decide together.

My money is on some-such thing materializing in the not-too-distant future, as a compromise between Gun Rights Folk and Gun Grabbers, in order to put this noisy and bothersome and energy-consuming argument to rest in this country, once and for all.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

Did you know that because of the Haynes decision...actual felons are not required to register their illegal guns...due to the protection against self incrimination...yet law abiding citizens could be made to register their guns....

Is that what you intend with your laws......

Hell, no...

The undertaking of any such approach implicitly assumes that we burn all such laws to the ground, and build something new and better on the ashes...

 

[2aguy]

Once we can trace a firearm from manufacturer to usage, including all its past legal possessors, we will have a far more accountable and careful public, in that regard.

Except...if your cousin is not a felon...and you give him the gun....it is not your fault and you are not liable if he uses it to break the law.....much like if you lend him your car or he steals it....you are not a co defendant because he used your car....

Also...guns used by criminals are gotten by stealing them....so even if you know who the original owner is...it gives you nothing on the actual criminal if you find it at the crime scene...right?

And the guns passed to felons by freinds and family members...when they are used by the felon who commits the crime, 1) they don't care if the family member goes to prison, since they already didn't care about putting them on the hook for giving a felon a gun in the first place and 2) the family member, and this is backed up by law enforcement, will call in a stolen gun once they pass it to a criminal family member, many times a gang member.....

So the entire gun registration regime does absolutely nothing to solve crimes or prevent them....and law enforcement will tell you...the cost, the man hours and resources to keep track of over 320 million guns in private hands...is impossible from the get go...it just would not work.......and if fact does not work in the states that already require it....

So again...nice idea (not really but the intentions are good) but it doesn't do anything to address the problem, and again...puts law abiding citizens on the hook for crimes they didn't commit....

Well, the Devil's in the Details, alright, and there is no escaping the idea that such an approach would have to be hammered-out by consensus, to result in anything effective, with teeth, that also does not unfairly punish a gun-owner under such circumstances. There are all kinds of variations and permutations to be explored, in contemplating such an approach.

The only ones affected, the only ones, are law abiding gun owners...criminals will not be affected by background checks of any kind, even national ones, and they won't be stopped by gun registration...they aren't now......

 

[2aguy]

And sadly, most of your ideas are wrong headed.......

You lost me at National Data base for the registration of firearms....which is the 2nd to last step that is used for banning some or all guns........so I would fight that tooth and nail....

And therefore they will easily be disarmed when the political will exists......there is no need to know who has these guns....when you catch someone breaking the law with a gun...you know who broke the law with that gun...if you catch a felon in possession of a gun, in his home, car or on his person...you can already arrest them since it is already against the law for them to posses any gun, of any kind.....

And that does not require knowing which law abiding citizens have the guns......

Well, that's one 'No' vote, I take it...

I understand what you are trying to do Kondor...you just have to think about it a little more.....felons in every state can't own or carry guns......yet we have 8-9,000 gun murders each year.....

Mass shooters already can't carry guns into gun free zones or use them to shoot innocent people...yet they pass background checks or steal the guns, and carry them into federal gun free zones.....

Once we can trace a firearm from manufacturer to usage, including all its past legal possessors, we will have a far more accountable and careful public, in that regard.

If you're a licensed gun-owner, and you give your idiot cousin a gun (or if he steals it and you don't report it), and he sticks-up a gas station with it, then he's screwed, and you're not far behind, because you empowered him.

Accountability is one of several key arguments in favor of centralized registration and licensure data tracking, if it results in far fewer guns getting loose in the wild, for fear of judgment in an 'accountability' context.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

But this is a matter for We The People to decide together.

My money is on some-such thing materializing in the not-too-distant future, as a compromise between Gun Rights Folk and Gun Grabbers, in order to put this noisy and bothersome and energy-consuming argument to rest in this country, once and for all.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

Did you know that because of the Haynes decision...actual felons are not required to register their illegal guns...due to the protection against self incrimination...yet law abiding citizens could be made to register their guns....

Is that what you intend with your laws......

Hell, no...

The undertaking of any such approach implicitly assumes that we burn all such laws to the ground, and build something new and better on the ashes...

The solution is simple....if a criminal uses a gun to commit a crime...arrest them and put them in prison. If a felon is caught in possession of a gun, arrest them and put them in prison.....

See how easy that is...and we already have those laws on the books....no need to waste more ink or typing......

 

[Kondor3]

...Why would you push registration when it will do absolutely nothing to stop criminals from getting and using guns.....?

Unless the penalty for being caught with an un-registered gun, or being caught with any gun - registered or not - without a License - is so frigging draconian that it scares the shit out of the average second-story man who might want to carry one.

 

[2aguy]

And sadly, most of your ideas are wrong headed.......

You lost me at National Data base for the registration of firearms....which is the 2nd to last step that is used for banning some or all guns........so I would fight that tooth and nail....

And therefore they will easily be disarmed when the political will exists......there is no need to know who has these guns....when you catch someone breaking the law with a gun...you know who broke the law with that gun...if you catch a felon in possession of a gun, in his home, car or on his person...you can already arrest them since it is already against the law for them to posses any gun, of any kind.....

And that does not require knowing which law abiding citizens have the guns......

Well, that's one 'No' vote, I take it...

I understand what you are trying to do Kondor...you just have to think about it a little more.....felons in every state can't own or carry guns......yet we have 8-9,000 gun murders each year.....

Mass shooters already can't carry guns into gun free zones or use them to shoot innocent people...yet they pass background checks or steal the guns, and carry them into federal gun free zones.....

Once we can trace a firearm from manufacturer to usage, including all its past legal possessors, we will have a far more accountable and careful public, in that regard.

If you're a licensed gun-owner, and you give your idiot cousin a gun (or if he steals it and you don't report it), and he sticks-up a gas station with it, then he's screwed, and you're not far behind, because you empowered him.

Accountability is one of several key arguments in favor of centralized registration and licensure data tracking, if it results in far fewer guns getting loose in the wild, for fear of judgment in an 'accountability' context.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

But this is a matter for We The People to decide together.

My money is on some-such thing materializing in the not-too-distant future, as a compromise between Gun Rights Folk and Gun Grabbers, in order to put this noisy and bothersome and energy-consuming argument to rest in this country, once and for all.

I do not believe that there are any true and substantive Constitutional barriers to such an approach, given that State-level databases and licensing and registration schemes already exist and that they have withstood challenges in the law courts.

Did you know that because of the Haynes decision...actual felons are not required to register their illegal guns...due to the protection against self incrimination...yet law abiding citizens could be made to register their guns....

Is that what you intend with your laws......

Hell, no...

The undertaking of any such approach implicitly assumes that we burn all such laws to the ground, and build something new and better on the ashes...

But the laws you suggest aren't new and they aren't better...in fact, they do nothing to address what you want addressed....