Zone1 Serious Question About Abortion

[martybegan]

In your perfect fantasy world, everyone would have sex only when they're ready to be parents. In this immaculate world, not only would women choose to remain pregnant and carry life in their wombs to full term for nine months, but they wouldn't lose their jobs and if they did, society would provide these women with all of the help they need to remain housed and fed. In this amazing world of yours, inhabited by saints and angels, everyone would have healthcare, and no one is impoverished. Unfortunately in the real world, people have sex even when they're not ready to be parents. Women get pregnant out of wedlock and not all of them want to remain pregnant for nine months. More, not everyone considers zygotes, embryos, or unviable fetuses as human beings with the same rights as the women who conceived them. So you can try to force women to remain pregnant, but that effort will most likely fail.

This:

View attachment 715654​

Is not equal to this:

View attachment 715653​

or this:

View attachment 715652​

Between birth control pills and condoms if you use both methods the chance of failure of both is probably around 0.01%.

 

[ClaireH]

So there are tens of millions of embryos up in heaven, huh? Including those from miscarriages

Your question is limited to thinking in terms of what can be proven by humans using minuscule microscopes and telescopes (still a major accomplishment going back in time to witness the birth of stars) but still fixated in depth and breadth. Incredible imagery exponentially growing via the rapid pace of tech and will continue to do so enhancing our knowledge, but still limited.

How can you or I claim to know something beyond extensive common knowledge, what has been written, comparing religious variations extensively taught, and intensively examining all conflicting and supporting evidence of Yeshua, afterlife, and souls?

Yet your question mocks my position. Limited mocking doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things now does it?

As a soft agnostic I believe other people have knowledge of God and personal experiences that support such belief, but I have not had any direct knowledge but open to learning always. I certainly do not claim to know about the afterlife.

To understand what is beyond my knowledge base of an afterlife that I’ve not witnessed, and you ask it terms of what, solids? I have yet to read or hear anything about souls being solid in mass. So your question about “numerous embryos in heaven” is illogical. What I do understand is the natural stages of life. Seasonal changes, death and or rebirth required for new life to thrive, and a permanent state of existence as energy cannot be destroyed only changed form, as with living souls.

 

[Mr Natural]

What about pregnant illegals? Should they be aborted so as not to create any new unwanted citizens?

 

[ClaireH]

A human embryo isn't a human person or being, it's an embryo. If I extract a living, human cell from my human body, that one cell or clump of cells is human and alive, but it's not viable unless it's attached to a human being (attached to me). The human embryo needs to be attached to a human being, namely, the woman. You can't force a woman to remain pregnant with an embryo that she's conceived within her body, just because you've determined or a group of religious folks has deemed that embryo to have the right to develop within her body. She should be afforded the right by society, and her community, to determine whether she's going to remain pregnant or not, not you or I or anyone else. You Evangelicals are a bunch of hypocrites, trying to use the government to force women to remain pregnant and give birth, while you complain about government mask mandates because no one should supposedly have the right to force you to wear a mask on your face (i.e. body). You are all stinking hypocrites.

The same goes for the use of Marijuana. You love seeing SWAT teams kicking down doors at 4 am because a husband and father is growing an "illegal" plant in his backyard, that will help him with his back pains and insomnia. Destroy the man's life because he's growing the "evil plant", and that's supposedly "pro-life" for you self-righteous, religious do-gooders.

Couple pictures of these embryos that you claim are non-human:

Quotes from Former Abortion Clinic Workers and Doctors - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

Eternal Perspective Ministries is a Bible-believing, Christ-centered nonprofit organization founded by author Randy Alcorn.

www.epm.org

 

[ClaireH]

A human embryo isn't a human person or being, it's an embryo. If I extract a living, human cell from my human body, that one cell or clump of cells is human and alive, but it's not viable unless it's attached to a human being (attached to me). The human embryo needs to be attached to a human being, namely, the woman. You can't force a woman to remain pregnant with an embryo that she's conceived within her body, just because you've determined or a group of religious folks has deemed that embryo to have the right to develop within her body. She should be afforded the right by society, and her community, to determine whether she's going to remain pregnant or not, not you or I or anyone else. You Evangelicals are a bunch of hypocrites, trying to use the government to force women to remain pregnant and give birth, while you complain about government mask mandates because no one should supposedly have the right to force you to wear a mask on your face (i.e. body). You are all stinking hypocrites.

The same goes for the use of Marijuana. You love seeing SWAT teams kicking down doors at 4 am because a husband and father is growing an "illegal" plant in his backyard, that will help him with his back pains and insomnia. Destroy the man's life because he's growing the "evil plant", and that's supposedly "pro-life" for you self-righteous, religious do-gooders.

Why do you insist on putting the words in other posters’ mouths? This is the second time I’ve brought this to your attention. You’re either doing it on purpose or you are deficit in capacity of logical thought. You appear to be unable to hold a normal conversation with always telling me what I think.

You must be late to the conversation/thread mentioning details discussed early on about a fertilized egg attaching to the uterine wall, yet you’re present it like it’s new information?

Your example of marijuana is out in left field and demonstrates how your mind works.

 

[ClaireH]

A human embryo isn't a human person or being, it's an embryo. If I extract a living, human cell from my human body, that one cell or clump of cells is human and alive, but it's not viable unless it's attached to a human being (attached to me). The human embryo needs to be attached to a human being, namely, the woman. You can't force a woman to remain pregnant with an embryo that she's conceived within her body, just because you've determined or a group of religious folks has deemed that embryo to have the right to develop within her body. She should be afforded the right by society, and her community, to determine whether she's going to remain pregnant or not, not you or I or anyone else. You Evangelicals are a bunch of hypocrites, trying to use the government to force women to remain pregnant and give birth, while you complain about government mask mandates because no one should supposedly have the right to force you to wear a mask on your face (i.e. body). You are all stinking hypocrites.

The same goes for the use of Marijuana. You love seeing SWAT teams kicking down doors at 4 am because a husband and father is growing an "illegal" plant in his backyard, that will help him with his back pains and insomnia. Destroy the man's life because he's growing the "evil plant", and that's supposedly "pro-life" for you self-righteous, religious do-gooders.

You-“ A human embryo isn't a human person or being, it's an embryo.” It’s 100 percent a human embryo that is the topic of discussion. Now, let’s recap: chicken embryos are 100 percent chickens while human embryos are 100 percent human.

 

[Curried Goats]

You-“ A human embryo isn't a human person or being, it's an embryo.” It’s 100 percent a human embryo that is the topic of discussion. Now, let’s recap: chicken embryos are 100 percent chickens while human embryos are 100 percent human.

I'm happy to concede a humans produce human embryos rather than chicken embryos. That in an of itself isn't a logical reason why it should be afforded the right to gestate in another humans body.

 

[ClaireH]

I'm happy to concede a humans produce human embryos rather than chicken embryos. That in an of itself isn't a logical reason why it should be afforded the right to gestate in another humans body.

Ah yes, curried goat rushing in with his theory that alien entities take ovulating females hostage while they are in a drunken stupor or coma! I believe you are referencing rape- rape is a violent crime and can be quite traumatic, otherwise your point is moot.

 

[Curried Goats]

Ah yes, curried goat rushing in with his theory that alien entities take ovulating females hostage while they are in a drunken stupor or coma! I believe you are referencing rape- rape is a violent crime and can be quite traumatic, otherwise your point is moot.

Do you have a reply that isn't hyperbolic? I wasn't referencing rape. I was acknowledging that fetuses and embryos developing inside humans are indeed human embryos and fetuses and still struggling to see the logical connection between that biological fact and the sociopolitical argument that it should have the right to gestate inside an unwilling woman.

 

[ClaireH]

Do you have a reply that isn't hyperbolic? I wasn't referencing rape. I was acknowledging that fetuses and embryos developing inside humans are indeed human embryos and fetuses and still struggling to see the logical connection between that biological fact and the sociopolitical argument that it should have the right to gestate inside an unwilling woman.

I was specific in my response that your own hyperbole required. Your entire paragraph read as if impregnating females is a random act of some type of foreign entity that happens without their participation or their will. That is a falsehood unless discussing rape. It’s important to note the distinction between rape and a willing participant when having sexual intercourse. It’s a huge difference legally and morally.

 

[Curried Goats]

I was specific in my response that your own hyperbole required. Your entire paragraph read as if impregnating females is a random act of some type of foreign entity that happens without their participation or their will. That is a falsehood unless discussing rape.

Not at all, that is simply your misinterpretation. In fact, I'm not even sure why cases of rape should matter to pro lifers at all. We can even assume the sex was consensual and unprotected if it makes you feel better. I don't believe consenting to sex is the same as consenting to pregnancy even though pregnancy is certainly a greater possibility just as I don't think leaving all your doors and windows open signals consent to be robbed even though it almost certainly increases the risk.

It’s important to note the distinction between rape and a willing participant when having sexual intercourse. It’s a huge difference legally and morally.

In what way?

 

[Faun]

Your question is limited to thinking in terms of what can be proven by humans using minuscule microscopes and telescopes (still a major accomplishment going back in time to witness the birth of stars) but still fixated in depth and breadth. Incredible imagery exponentially growing via the rapid pace of tech and will continue to do so enhancing our knowledge, but still limited.

How can you or I claim to know something beyond extensive common knowledge, what has been written, comparing religious variations extensively taught, and intensively examining all conflicting and supporting evidence of Yeshua, afterlife, and souls?

Yet your question mocks my position. Limited mocking doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things now does it?

As a soft agnostic I believe other people have knowledge of God and personal experiences that support such belief, but I have not had any direct knowledge but open to learning always. I certainly do not claim to know about the afterlife.

To understand what is beyond my knowledge base of an afterlife that I’ve not witnessed, and you ask it terms of what, solids? I have yet to read or hear anything about souls being solid in mass. So your question about “numerous embryos in heaven” is illogical. What I do understand is the natural stages of life. Seasonal changes, death and or rebirth required for new life to thrive, and a permanent state of existence as energy cannot be destroyed only changed form, as with living souls.

I'm good with you getting I was mocking your position.

 

[ClaireH]

I'm good with you getting I was mocking your position.

I learn from people who can throw back what’s been said and adding information or opinions to it or picking it apart piece by piece. What is your take on the cycle of life and how that fits in this discussion of afterlife and living souls? Or it could boil down to having a different perception about what a decent conversation looks like and you have no thoughts about it.

Stop whining about dead embryos and fetuses when you're so indifferent to life outside of the womb. The only reason you pretend to care about embryos and fetuses in the wombs of strangers is because of your self-righteous attempt to punish fornicators and those you deem to be immoral. You want to punish women you consider to be "harlots" by using the government to force them to remain pregnant and you do that while crying about government-enforced mask mandates. You gripe about the government forcing you to wear a mask on your face in the middle of a nationwide deadly pandemic because it supposedly doesn't have the authority to tell you what to do with your body, then you turn around and use that same government to force women's bodies to remain pregnant for nine months. You're hypocrites.

Yet another rant full of falsehoods and disassociative thoughts. You might consider therapy if you find yourself angry over an opinion on a public message board in opposition to yours. Hopefully, you don’t have any pets under your emotionally unstable “care”, that’s a very scary thought.

 

[Faun]

I learn from people who can throw back what’s been said and adding information or opinions to it or picking it apart piece by piece. What is your take on the cycle of life and how that fits in this discussion of afterlife and living souls? Or it could boil down to having a different perception about what a decent conversation looks like and you have no thoughts about it.

My take is that there is zero evidence of it.

 

[ClaireH]

My take is that there is zero evidence of it.

I relate to “awaiting proof” which may or may not come before one dies. I am always open to evidence but realize that humans are flawed creatures with extremely limited senses in all areas.

Imo humans overall (there are exceptions) are mere peons but extremely lucky to have been born when we’ve been born (relatively speaking to all previous known time periods) and where- on the 3rd rock from a star miraculously meeting specific requirements in exact distances/speeds/tilt/moon etc. to support life as we know it, and most lucky to be alive when humans are on the top of the food chain.

 

[initforme]

Damages? Does the drug company then have to raise the child? Sounds like a great solution.

If the contraceptive fails then yes the company is liable for the damage inflicted.

 

[Dayton3]

Compelling a pregnant woman to give birth is, quite literally, compelling her to go into labor she doesn't want. Sounds like slavery to me.

What DOESN'T sound like "slavery" to you and your ilk?

 

[Faun]

I relate to “awaiting proof” which may or may not come before one dies. I am always open to evidence but realize that humans are flawed creatures with extremely limited senses in all areas.

Such "proof" can only come after one dies. And if there is no such proof, one never knows. That's what you're banking on?

Imo humans overall (there are exceptions) are mere peons but extremely lucky to have been born when we’ve been born (relatively speaking to all previous known time periods) and where- on the 3rd rock from a star miraculously meeting specific requirements in exact distances/speeds/tilt/moon etc. to support life as we know it, and most lucky to be alive when humans are on the top of the food chain.

I actually wrote a sci-fi story once about how it wasn't a miracle, but how aliens from another world far away brought us here as part of a science experiment.

 

[Leo123]

In your perfect fantasy world, everyone would have sex only when they're ready to be parents. In this immaculate world, not only would women choose to remain pregnant and carry life in their wombs to full term for nine months, but they wouldn't lose their jobs and if they did, society would provide these women with all of the help they need to remain housed and fed. In this amazing world of yours, inhabited by saints and angels, everyone would have healthcare, and no one is impoverished. Unfortunately in the real world, people have sex even when they're not ready to be parents. Women get pregnant out of wedlock and not all of them want to remain pregnant for nine months. More, not everyone considers zygotes, embryos, or unviable fetuses as human beings with the same rights as the women who conceived them. So you can try to force women to remain pregnant, but that effort will most likely fail.

This:

View attachment 715654​

Is not equal to this:

View attachment 715653​

or this:

View attachment 715652​

How is killing developing human life the 'real world?' Seems to me it's more like denial of reality.

 

[Red Front]

I learn from people who can throw back what’s been said and adding information or opinions to it or picking it apart piece by piece. What is your take on the cycle of life and how that fits in this discussion of afterlife and living souls? Or it could boil down to having a different perception about what a decent conversation looks like and you have no thoughts about it.


Yet another rant full of falsehoods and disassociative thoughts. You might consider therapy if you find yourself angry over an opinion on a public message board in opposition to yours. Hopefully, you don’t have any pets under your emotionally unstable “care”, that’s a very scary thought.

It's true, and I detailed why, so address those points and stop ignoring them. So-called "pro-life" conservatives are pro-death, by how they vote and behave, and only pretend to be for life, a life not yet actualized in someone else's womb. Reducing actual human persons to embryos. Supposedly the embryo possesses prerogatives, interests, and rights that take precedence or at least equal that of the actual human being that conceived it. It's the woman that is the human being with the rights and it's her needs, interests, and well-being that should be prioritized not that of an embryo or unviable fetus. You pretend to care about life in the womb, yet as soon as that life is born you cut its access to the resources it needs to live. Because you despise and have contempt for the poor, and single mothers due to your views on premarital sex. You vote for Republican politicians that prevent that single mother from receiving the assistance she needs to raise her child, by defunding social programs.