CDZ Should Homosexual People Be Allowed To Legally Adopt Children?

[Asclepias]

No I certainly do NOT. But what I don't understand is why you said you would accept lesbians adopting rather than gay men (I think that's what you wrote) & (the possibility of molestation) is why I thought perhaps is why you were against gay adoption. Other than that...I don't understand why you would have reservations.

Sexual abuse of children takes more forms than you think.

I even made a point of picking, out of all the sources that I found reporting this story, a source that is overtly LGBpbWTF-friendly, and sympathetic to this pair of monsters who are in the process of severely screwing up their child.

Lesbian couple to provide drug therapy for transgender son

A lesbian couple in California has started hormone therapy for their 11-year-old son Tommy after he said he wanted to be a girl named Tammy.

Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel decided to allow the hormone-blocking treatments so the child could make an informed decision about his gender expression at a later age.​

Transgender South Florida teen Jazz Jennings gets reality show, makes skincare commercial

"Set to premiere this summer, Jazz will explain how she handles all the typical teen experiences, including dating, sleepovers and high school. You'll get to know Jazz, but also her understanding parents, Greg and Jeanette, her grandparents Jack and Jacky, and her siblings Ari, Griffen and Sander,”

So, you would take Jazz away from her straight parents?

I watched that show. I would have never known that was a boy.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

No I certainly do NOT. But what I don't understand is why you said you would accept lesbians adopting rather than gay men (I think that's what you wrote) & (the possibility of molestation) is why I thought perhaps is why you were against gay adoption. Other than that...I don't understand why you would have reservations.

Sexual abuse of children takes more forms than you think.

I even made a point of picking, out of all the sources that I found reporting this story, a source that is overtly LGBpbWTF-friendly, and sympathetic to this pair of monsters who are in the process of severely screwing up their child.

Lesbian couple to provide drug therapy for transgender son

A lesbian couple in California has started hormone therapy for their 11-year-old son Tommy after he said he wanted to be a girl named Tammy.

Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel decided to allow the hormone-blocking treatments so the child could make an informed decision about his gender expression at a later age.​

Transgender South Florida teen Jazz Jennings gets reality show, makes skincare commercial

"Set to premiere this summer, Jazz will explain how she handles all the typical teen experiences, including dating, sleepovers and high school. You'll get to know Jazz, but also her understanding parents, Greg and Jeanette, her grandparents Jack and Jacky, and her siblings Ari, Griffen and Sander,”

So, you would take Jazz away from her straight parents?

I watched that show. I would have never known that was a boy.

I'd hit it

 

[Asclepias]

No I certainly do NOT. But what I don't understand is why you said you would accept lesbians adopting rather than gay men (I think that's what you wrote) & (the possibility of molestation) is why I thought perhaps is why you were against gay adoption. Other than that...I don't understand why you would have reservations.

Sexual abuse of children takes more forms than you think.

I even made a point of picking, out of all the sources that I found reporting this story, a source that is overtly LGBpbWTF-friendly, and sympathetic to this pair of monsters who are in the process of severely screwing up their child.

Lesbian couple to provide drug therapy for transgender son

A lesbian couple in California has started hormone therapy for their 11-year-old son Tommy after he said he wanted to be a girl named Tammy.

Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel decided to allow the hormone-blocking treatments so the child could make an informed decision about his gender expression at a later age.​

Transgender South Florida teen Jazz Jennings gets reality show, makes skincare commercial

"Set to premiere this summer, Jazz will explain how she handles all the typical teen experiences, including dating, sleepovers and high school. You'll get to know Jazz, but also her understanding parents, Greg and Jeanette, her grandparents Jack and Jacky, and her siblings Ari, Griffen and Sander,”

So, you would take Jazz away from her straight parents?

I watched that show. I would have never known that was a boy.

I'd hit it

You do realize that is a child and anatomically a male? You must be white?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

No I certainly do NOT. But what I don't understand is why you said you would accept lesbians adopting rather than gay men (I think that's what you wrote) & (the possibility of molestation) is why I thought perhaps is why you were against gay adoption. Other than that...I don't understand why you would have reservations.

Sexual abuse of children takes more forms than you think.

I even made a point of picking, out of all the sources that I found reporting this story, a source that is overtly LGBpbWTF-friendly, and sympathetic to this pair of monsters who are in the process of severely screwing up their child.

Lesbian couple to provide drug therapy for transgender son

A lesbian couple in California has started hormone therapy for their 11-year-old son Tommy after he said he wanted to be a girl named Tammy.

Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel decided to allow the hormone-blocking treatments so the child could make an informed decision about his gender expression at a later age.​

First of all, as I previously posted right here, this story has nothing to do with adoption and the fact that SHE is in the care of lesbians is irrelevant. There are plenty of transgender and transsexual kids with heterosexual parents. You might want to start to educate yourself:

What Causes Transsexualism?

by Lynn Conway

http://www.lynnconway.com/


Many causes for transsexualism have been proposed over the years. As discussed earlier in Lynn's TG/TS/IS information, it's long been known from intersex data that the genes do not determine gender identity, and recent follow-ups on intersex infant surgeries show that consistency of "genitals and upbringing" does not determine gender identity.



Instead, current scientific results strongly suggest neurobiological origins for transsexualism: Something appears to happen during the in-utero development of the transsexual child's central nervous system (CNS) so that the child is left with innate, strongly perceived cross-gender body feelings and self-perceptions. We still don't know for sure what causes this neurological development, and more research needs to be done. But the neurobiological direction for these explorations seem clear.

However, even without any scientific evidence to back them up, many psychiatrists and psychologists over the past four decades have simply assumed that transsexualism is a "mental illness". By DEFINING this socially unpopular condition to be a mental illness, these mental health professionals have shaped much of the medical establishment's and society's views of transsexuals as psychopathological "sexual deviants". http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TScauses.html

My second point is this....I am sick and tired of you anti LGBT people bringing up sexual abuse . It is moronic and inappropriate and the story that you posted is nothing more than a variation on that sick theme:

Now to continue your education

Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation


See Dr. Herek's blog
for updates.

Members of disliked minority groups are often stereotyped as representing a danger to the majority's most vulnerable members. For example, Jews in the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Black men in the United States were often lynched after being falsely accused of raping White women.

In a similar fashion, gay people have often been portrayed as a threat to children. Back in 1977, when Anita Bryant campaigned successfully to repeal a Dade County (FL) ordinance prohibiting anti-gay discrimination, she named her organization "Save Our Children," and warned that "a particularly deviant-minded [gay] teacher could sexually molest children" (Bryant, 1977, p. 114). [Bibliographic references are on a different web page]


http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

'Of course I realize that this is all a colossal waist of my time because you seem to be so invested in your hateful beliefs that you will gloss over at the sight of anything that threatens your perception of LGBT people.

Have a good day.

 

[paddymurphy]

No I certainly do NOT. But what I don't understand is why you said you would accept lesbians adopting rather than gay men (I think that's what you wrote) & (the possibility of molestation) is why I thought perhaps is why you were against gay adoption. Other than that...I don't understand why you would have reservations.

Sexual abuse of children takes more forms than you think.

I even made a point of picking, out of all the sources that I found reporting this story, a source that is overtly LGBpbWTF-friendly, and sympathetic to this pair of monsters who are in the process of severely screwing up their child.

Lesbian couple to provide drug therapy for transgender son

A lesbian couple in California has started hormone therapy for their 11-year-old son Tommy after he said he wanted to be a girl named Tammy.

Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel decided to allow the hormone-blocking treatments so the child could make an informed decision about his gender expression at a later age.​

Transgender South Florida teen Jazz Jennings gets reality show, makes skincare commercial

"Set to premiere this summer, Jazz will explain how she handles all the typical teen experiences, including dating, sleepovers and high school. You'll get to know Jazz, but also her understanding parents, Greg and Jeanette, her grandparents Jack and Jacky, and her siblings Ari, Griffen and Sander,”

So, you would take Jazz away from her straight parents?

I watched that show. I would have never known that was a boy.

I'd hit it

So, the pedophile attacks adult homosexuals. Ain't that rich?

 

[Maryland Patriot]

No I certainly do NOT. But what I don't understand is why you said you would accept lesbians adopting rather than gay men (I think that's what you wrote) & (the possibility of molestation) is why I thought perhaps is why you were against gay adoption. Other than that...I don't understand why you would have reservations.

Sexual abuse of children takes more forms than you think.

I even made a point of picking, out of all the sources that I found reporting this story, a source that is overtly LGBpbWTF-friendly, and sympathetic to this pair of monsters who are in the process of severely screwing up their child.

Lesbian couple to provide drug therapy for transgender son

A lesbian couple in California has started hormone therapy for their 11-year-old son Tommy after he said he wanted to be a girl named Tammy.

Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel decided to allow the hormone-blocking treatments so the child could make an informed decision about his gender expression at a later age.​

Transgender South Florida teen Jazz Jennings gets reality show, makes skincare commercial

"Set to premiere this summer, Jazz will explain how she handles all the typical teen experiences, including dating, sleepovers and high school. You'll get to know Jazz, but also her understanding parents, Greg and Jeanette, her grandparents Jack and Jacky, and her siblings Ari, Griffen and Sander,”

So, you would take Jazz away from her straight parents?

I watched that show. I would have never known that was a boy.

I'd hit it

So, the pedophile attacks adult homosexuals. Ain't that rich?

where did I attack adult homosexuals

 

[paddymurphy]

Sexual abuse of children takes more forms than you think.

I even made a point of picking, out of all the sources that I found reporting this story, a source that is overtly LGBpbWTF-friendly, and sympathetic to this pair of monsters who are in the process of severely screwing up their child.

Lesbian couple to provide drug therapy for transgender son

A lesbian couple in California has started hormone therapy for their 11-year-old son Tommy after he said he wanted to be a girl named Tammy.

Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel decided to allow the hormone-blocking treatments so the child could make an informed decision about his gender expression at a later age.​

Transgender South Florida teen Jazz Jennings gets reality show, makes skincare commercial

"Set to premiere this summer, Jazz will explain how she handles all the typical teen experiences, including dating, sleepovers and high school. You'll get to know Jazz, but also her understanding parents, Greg and Jeanette, her grandparents Jack and Jacky, and her siblings Ari, Griffen and Sander,”

So, you would take Jazz away from her straight parents?

I watched that show. I would have never known that was a boy.

I'd hit it

So, the pedophile attacks adult homosexuals. Ain't that rich?

where did I attack adult homosexuals

So, you're ok with being called a pedophile?

 

[Maryland Patriot]

Transgender South Florida teen Jazz Jennings gets reality show, makes skincare commercial

"Set to premiere this summer, Jazz will explain how she handles all the typical teen experiences, including dating, sleepovers and high school. You'll get to know Jazz, but also her understanding parents, Greg and Jeanette, her grandparents Jack and Jacky, and her siblings Ari, Griffen and Sander,”

So, you would take Jazz away from her straight parents?

I watched that show. I would have never known that was a boy.

I'd hit it

So, the pedophile attacks adult homosexuals. Ain't that rich?

where did I attack adult homosexuals

So, you're ok with being called a pedophile?

that's the difference between me and a child like yourself, it does not matter what you call me, it only matters what I know to be factual.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

I watched that show. I would have never known that was a boy.

I'd hit it

So, the pedophile attacks adult homosexuals. Ain't that rich?

where did I attack adult homosexuals

So, you're ok with being called a pedophile?

that's the difference between me and a child like yourself, it does not matter what you call me, it only matters what I know to be factual.

and where did I attack homosexuals.

 

[paddymurphy]

You

I watched that show. I would have never known that was a boy.

I'd hit it

So, the pedophile attacks adult homosexuals. Ain't that rich?

where did I attack adult homosexuals

So, you're ok with being called a pedophile?

that's the difference between me and a child like yourself, it does not matter what you call me, it only matters what I know to be factual.

it is a fact that you said "I'd hit that" about a child.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

You

I'd hit it

So, the pedophile attacks adult homosexuals. Ain't that rich?

where did I attack adult homosexuals

So, you're ok with being called a pedophile?

that's the difference between me and a child like yourself, it does not matter what you call me, it only matters what I know to be factual.

it is a fact that you said "I'd hit that" about a child.

its a fact that if you are too stupid to take something for what it is, you are too stupid to have it explained to you.
Now where did I attack homosexuals. Still waiting.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Transgender South Florida teen Jazz Jennings gets reality show, makes skincare commercial

"Set to premiere this summer, Jazz will explain how she handles all the typical teen experiences, including dating, sleepovers and high school. You'll get to know Jazz, but also her understanding parents, Greg and Jeanette, her grandparents Jack and Jacky, and her siblings Ari, Griffen and Sander,”

So, you would take Jazz away from her straight parents?

Possibly. It's quite clear that he has some serious psychiatric issues, and instead of seeking proper treatment for these issues, his parents are apparently indulging his delusions. That cannot be indicative of competent parenting.

And sleepovers? A teenaged boy, with such serious issues, being involved in sleepovers, I assume with teenaged girls? This certainly casts serious doubts, not only on his parents' judgment, but on that of any other parents who would allow their teenaged daughters to participate in a sleepover with a teenaged boy.

What point did you think you were making by bringing this up?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

First of all, as I previously posted right here, this story has nothing to do with adoption and the fact that SHE is in the care of lesbians is irrelevant. There are plenty of transgender and transsexual kids with heterosexual parents. You might want to start to educate yourself:

The child in question is a boy, a male, and too young to understand or give informed consent to what is being done to him, and probably has no idea what the long term harm is that is being done to him.

There is no rational basis on which to describe what is being done to him as anything other than an extreme form of sexual abuse, for which his abusers ought to be locked up in prison for a very, very long time.

My second point is this....I am sick and tired of you anti LGBT people bringing up sexual abuse[…/QUOTE]

Proclaiming yourself to be “sick” of the plain truth will not make that truth go away; neither will making excuses for those that engage in serious sexual abuse of children mitigate in the least the impact of that abuse.

 

[Syriusly]

First of all, as I previously posted right here, this story has nothing to do with adoption and the fact that SHE is in the care of lesbians is irrelevant. There are plenty of transgender and transsexual kids with heterosexual parents. You might want to start to educate yourself:

There is no rational basis on which to describe what is being done to him as anything other than an extreme form of sexual abuse, for which his abusers ought to be locked up in prison for a very, very long time.
.

Well I believe that what is happening is being done with the consent of his medical doctors and his parents.

Tell us why you believe you have a rational basis but his doctors and parents do not? Or even why you presume to believe that you know more of the facts than his doctors and his parents.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

First of all, as I previously posted right here, this story has nothing to do with adoption and the fact that SHE is in the care of lesbians is irrelevant. There are plenty of transgender and transsexual kids with heterosexual parents. You might want to start to educate yourself:

There is no rational basis on which to describe what is being done to him as anything other than an extreme form of sexual abuse, for which his abusers ought to be locked up in prison for a very, very long time.
.

Well I believe that what is happening is being done with the consent of his medical doctors and his parents.

Tell us why you believe you have a rational basis but his doctors and parents do not? Or even why you presume to believe that you know more of the facts than his doctors and his parents.

The facts are clear enough. This is a boy, a child, who is being given drugs for the intended purpose of preventing him from undergoing puberty, and of stunting his natural growth and development. There is absolutely no legitimate reason to do this to this child. There is no benefit to this treatment, and it will almost certainly cause serious long-term harm to him as an adult.

This is not medical treatment. This is a grotesque, unethical science experiment, conducted with no more concern for this child than for a common laboratory rat.

Everyone who is a willing part of this belongs in prison. Any “doctor” who would have any willing part in this sort of abuse has no business being in the medical field. This is in the same category of many of the experiments conducted by Josef Mengele on concentration camp inmates.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

First of all, as I previously posted right here, this story has nothing to do with adoption and the fact that SHE is in the care of lesbians is irrelevant. There are plenty of transgender and transsexual kids with heterosexual parents. You might want to start to educate yourself:

There is no rational basis on which to describe what is being done to him as anything other than an extreme form of sexual abuse, for which his abusers ought to be locked up in prison for a very, very long time.
.

Well I believe that what is happening is being done with the consent of his medical doctors and his parents.

Tell us why you believe you have a rational basis but his doctors and parents do not? Or even why you presume to believe that you know more of the facts than his doctors and his parents.

The facts are clear enough. This is a boy, a child, who is being given drugs for the intended purpose of preventing him from undergoing puberty, and of stunting his natural growth and development. There is absolutely no legitimate reason to do this to this child. There is no benefit to this treatment, and it will almost certainly cause serious long-term harm to him as an adult.

This is not medical treatment. This is a grotesque, unethical science experiment, conducted with no more concern for this child than for a common laboratory rat.

Everyone who is a willing part of this belongs in prison. Any “doctor” who would have any willing part in this sort of abuse has no business being in the medical field. This is in the same category of many of the experiments conducted by Josef Mengele on concentration camp inmates.

Settle down Bob…you’re beginning to sound like you have a few screws loose with this talk of jail. The fact that you do not accept or understand transgender conditions, and are content to remain ignorant of the facts is no ones problem but your own. This child is getting the help that SHE needs thanks to her parents.

Furthermore, I doubt if you really give a crap about this child as much as you want to use this case to scream about child abuse and disparage these lesbian parents. Your phony outrage about the treatment of this child is very transparent.

This thread is about adoption by gay people. It has nothing to do with the issue of transgenderism or for that matter child abuse. You are way off base here. Please try to learn something, although I doubt if you really are interested in doing so.


Treatments help transgender kids cope http://fox2now.com/2013/11/07/medical-services-growing-in-st-louis-area-for-transgender-children/


ST. LOUIS (KTVI) - More transgender children in St. Louis are coming forward and getting medical help that is proving to be life changing and life saving. Doctors in St. Louis are blocking puberty so these kids don’t have to grow up in the wrong body. A Ladue High School senior went through this medical procedure before puberty. Will Copeland is 17 and was born female. When he was two years old he asked his father why God made him wrong. He has never wavered from that belief that he was born the wrong gender.

Dr. Norman Spack recently visited St. Louis to speak with medical professionals and parents about treating transgender children. He is one of the first doctors in the country to tackle the medical problem of treating transgender children. One in five of his patients at Boston Children's hospital had tried to self mutilate or commit suicide because of the affects of puberty on their bodies. Dr. Spack says in order to pass as somebody of a female for example, you must give the hormone blockers before age 16 to stop the pronounced facial bone structure, Adam’s apple and voice change.


NEWS CENTER) -- Being transgender isn't just a state of mind, it is a diagnosed medical condition called Gender Dysphoria.

Doctors can identify symptoms and begin treating Gender Dysphoria before children become adults. Maine Health recognized a need for that treatment and established a gender clinic at Barbara Bush Children's Hospital.

Four years ago, pediatric endocrinologist Dr. Jerrold Olshan was treating just one or two children for Gender Dysphoria. Today, he sees between 20 and 30. He says all children have quesitons about gender, but sometimes those questions run deeper. That's when parents are likely to take a child to see a specialist. It can happen at a very young age. http://www.wcsh6.com/story/news/local/2014/09/04/how-doctors-treat-transgender-children/15086467/

 

[playtime]

First of all, as I previously posted right here, this story has nothing to do with adoption and the fact that SHE is in the care of lesbians is irrelevant. There are plenty of transgender and transsexual kids with heterosexual parents. You might want to start to educate yourself:

There is no rational basis on which to describe what is being done to him as anything other than an extreme form of sexual abuse, for which his abusers ought to be locked up in prison for a very, very long time.
.

Well I believe that what is happening is being done with the consent of his medical doctors and his parents.

Tell us why you believe you have a rational basis but his doctors and parents do not? Or even why you presume to believe that you know more of the facts than his doctors and his parents.

The facts are clear enough. This is a boy, a child, who is being given drugs for the intended purpose of preventing him from undergoing puberty, and of stunting his natural growth and development. There is absolutely no legitimate reason to do this to this child. There is no benefit to this treatment, and it will almost certainly cause serious long-term harm to him as an adult.

This is not medical treatment. This is a grotesque, unethical science experiment, conducted with no more concern for this child than for a common laboratory rat.

Everyone who is a willing part of this belongs in prison. Any “doctor” who would have any willing part in this sort of abuse has no business being in the medical field. This is in the same category of many of the experiments conducted by Josef Mengele on concentration camp inmates.

Settle down Bob…you’re beginning to sound like you have a few screws loose with this talk of jail. The fact that you do not accept or understand transgender conditions, and are content to remain ignorant of the facts is no ones problem but your own. This child is getting the help that SHE needs thanks to her parents.

Furthermore, I doubt if you really give a crap about this child as much as you want to use this case to scream about child abuse and disparage these lesbian parents. Your phony outrage about the treatment of this child is very transparent.

This thread is about adoption by gay people. It has nothing to do with the issue of transgenderism or for that matter child abuse. You are way off base here. Please try to learn something, although I doubt if you really are interested in doing so.


Treatments help transgender kids cope http://fox2now.com/2013/11/07/medical-services-growing-in-st-louis-area-for-transgender-children/


ST. LOUIS (KTVI) - More transgender children in St. Louis are coming forward and getting medical help that is proving to be life changing and life saving. Doctors in St. Louis are blocking puberty so these kids don’t have to grow up in the wrong body. A Ladue High School senior went through this medical procedure before puberty. Will Copeland is 17 and was born female. When he was two years old he asked his father why God made him wrong. He has never wavered from that belief that he was born the wrong gender.

Dr. Norman Spack recently visited St. Louis to speak with medical professionals and parents about treating transgender children. He is one of the first doctors in the country to tackle the medical problem of treating transgender children. One in five of his patients at Boston Children's hospital had tried to self mutilate or commit suicide because of the affects of puberty on their bodies. Dr. Spack says in order to pass as somebody of a female for example, you must give the hormone blockers before age 16 to stop the pronounced facial bone structure, Adam’s apple and voice change.


NEWS CENTER) -- Being transgender isn't just a state of mind, it is a diagnosed medical condition called Gender Dysphoria.

Doctors can identify symptoms and begin treating Gender Dysphoria before children become adults. Maine Health recognized a need for that treatment and established a gender clinic at Barbara Bush Children's Hospital.

Four years ago, pediatric endocrinologist Dr. Jerrold Olshan was treating just one or two children for Gender Dysphoria. Today, he sees between 20 and 30. He says all children have quesitons about gender, but sometimes those questions run deeper. That's when parents are likely to take a child to see a specialist. It can happen at a very young age. http://www.wcsh6.com/story/news/local/2014/09/04/how-doctors-treat-transgender-children/15086467/

I didn't wanna go down this road with him & get off topic- that's why I didn't even try to get into a 'discussion' concerning transgender children... I figured if he can't even wrap his head about 'gay adoption', then this side road would have been even more fruitless.

 

[JakeStarkey]

After more than 100 posts, the question "Should Homosexual People Be Allowed To Legally Adopt Children?" has been clearly answered: of course. Let's close the thread.

 

[Politico]

There MUST be a biological balance and harmony. If homosexuals can produce a child then it is considered natural. As harsh as it may sound this is the reality. Man + Woman = child. Mother and father provide different and unique love and are naturally able to produce a child by their natural harmony with the bio system in place.

Homosexuals are capable of having children, millions of gay Americans are parents, gay parents are the heads of households with happy, normal, well-adjusted children; the notion of prohibiting gay Americans from adopting simply because of who they are is completely unwarranted and devoid of merit.

And should government seek to disadvantage gay Americans through force of law, by prohibiting them from adopting, then such a measure would clearly be repugnant to the Constitution, and invalidated by the courts accordingly.

No they aren't. Can we stay on topic?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

There MUST be a biological balance and harmony. If homosexuals can produce a child then it is considered natural. As harsh as it may sound this is the reality. Man + Woman = child. Mother and father provide different and unique love and are naturally able to produce a child by their natural harmony with the bio system in place.

Homosexuals are capable of having children, millions of gay Americans are parents, gay parents are the heads of households with happy, normal, well-adjusted children; the notion of prohibiting gay Americans from adopting simply because of who they are is completely unwarranted and devoid of merit.

And should government seek to disadvantage gay Americans through force of law, by prohibiting them from adopting, then such a measure would clearly be repugnant to the Constitution, and invalidated by the courts accordingly.

No they aren't. Can we stay on topic?

No they aren't what? I think that we are on topic -a topic that we have beaten to death because some people want to make something that is really very simple into a tangled, inane mess