Should we make the corporate tax rate 0%?

[kaz]

What I complain about are laws that are written to ensure that more of that wealth is directed and maintained at the upper levels

Our society values capitalists more than it values labor

We are paying a price

Other than Marxist rhetoric, do you have anything to back that up?

Lower tax rates for corporations, lower rates on capital gains, government subsidies, trade protections, protections of investments abroad

Lower tax rates for corporations, lower rates on capital gains - since those are both double taxation, any tax rate is too high. For both of those, I pay corporate and personal taxes on them.

government subsidies - way too vague

trade protections - what does this mean?

protections of investments abroad - what does this mean?

You realize all those things are how companies provide jobs, that you view the company as benefiting and not their employees is back the the Marxist rhetoric category.

 

[kaz]

What I complain about are laws that are written to ensure that more of that wealth is directed and maintained at the upper levels

Our society values capitalists more than it values labor

We are paying a price

In a free society we, as individuals, decide our relative values. Government, on the other hand is obligated to protect the rights of everyone equally, regardless of class, race, religion, etc... The state shouldn't be involved in class warfare or manipulating the economy toward specific ends. When it becomes involved, everyone with influence will seek to bend it toward their ends. And the wealthy will invariably have more influence. That's why, though it is obviously counter-intuitive to modern liberals, the only why to prevent policy that favors the rich is to keep government out of economic matters altogether.

Fine with me

Tax corporations at the same rate you tax individuals. We don't want the government to play favorites do we?

So again, I pay that "same rate" twice and you pay it once, which means it's not the "same rate."

Also, there would be massive layoffs, I thought you wanted to protect labor, change your mind?

 

[kaz]

OK, this is how it works. Let's say that you have a business where the only expense is labour and your tax rate is 30%. Your P&L will look like this.

Revenues $100,000
Expenses $70,000
Income before taxes $30,000
Taxes $9,000
Net income after taxes $21,000

All labour income is written off against taxes. If labour costs $90,000, taxes fall to $3,000. If labour is $100,000, taxes are $0. Taxes are on profits, which are after all expenses, including labour.

So I'll ask again, what employee expenses are not written off?

I think what he means is he would give a tax credit rather than a tax deduction for labor and not allow companies to deduct any other expense, but admittedly that is a guess.

 

[Political Junky]

After the Great Bush Depression of 2008, where did the money from the recovery end up? Did those doing the working see any of that recovery? republicans have found out how to hold down wages and benefits. How to keep the workforce scared. How to ensure that the wealthy continue to gain and keep most of the wealth

yep......Republicans look after the yachts

You are a total idiot. Obozo and the dems have been in control for over 5 years and the gap between rich and poor is larger than ever.

liberalism is destroying the middle class and making the left wing elites richer than ever.

It is a never ending source of amazement to see how detached from reality you liberals are.

Like a huge yacht, that ship is hard to turn around once it gets going. Especially with Republicans fighting at ever turn to keep it headed in the direction of the wealthy

And some of the poor and middle class Americans fight for the right of the wealthy to do it. Go figure.

 

[dblack]

What I complain about are laws that are written to ensure that more of that wealth is directed and maintained at the upper levels

Our society values capitalists more than it values labor

We are paying a price

In a free society we, as individuals, decide our relative values. Government, on the other hand is obligated to protect the rights of everyone equally, regardless of class, race, religion, etc... The state shouldn't be involved in class warfare or manipulating the economy toward specific ends. When it becomes involved, everyone with influence will seek to bend it toward their ends. And the wealthy will invariably have more influence. That's why, though it is obviously counter-intuitive to modern liberals, the only why to prevent policy that favors the rich is to keep government out of economic matters altogether.

Fine with me

Tax corporations at the same rate you tax individuals. We don't want the government to play favorites do we?

I don't believe corporations should be treated as "individuals". They are associations of individuals. Those individuals should be taxed, like everyone else, but taxing the association directly, and then taxing its members individually IS double taxation. It would be like taxing a family for its overall income, and then taxing each member again for their portion of that income.

 

[Londoner]

This shall be paid for eliminating useless leftist government programs.

The good things from this?

Many MANY Jobs will be created in America, since companies will return to their homeland.

Even better. Let's provide 1.4 trillion dollars of subsidies to big oil, the most profitable sector in world history. Then, let's reduce their effective tax rate to zero. Then let's spend 800 billion dollars a year protecting their oil fields in the Middle East.

But it gets better. After subsidizing over 100% of their costs, let's create a political movement that allows them to redeploy some of their profits into a massive media machine which convinces useful idiots that these mega corporations are victims. In addition to pop media, they can also fund think tanks who will pay unscrupulous academics to create and peddle flawed data to the same idiots.

But yes. This is a good question. What else can we do for the people who fund our elections, lobby our puppet politicians, and own our government?

 

[rightwinger]

No. Corporate taxes are essentially payment for the special privileges granted by the corporate charter. We don't double tax ordinary businesses because they don't get these privileges. I, and others here, are suggesting removing the perks, along with the extra taxes. Let theses companies fend for themselves, on a level playing field.

Stop the double tax bullshit.......nobody is buying it

Not everyone understands it, granted, but it's not really that hard if you think about it. With ordinary businesses, taxes are levied on profits received by the owners. Corporate taxation treats the corporation itself as a "legal person", taxing the profits it accrues directly, and then taxes those gains again when the profits are disturbed to owners as income. As it stands, it's a reasonable concession for all the perks corporations receive from the state. But it's my view that those perks should end, along with the extra taxation.

That is not double taxation

The corporation pays taxes on its profits or loss
The owner as an individual only pays taxes on the profits he takes out of that business

Is a worker being double taxed too? He is paying taxes on money the company has already paid a tax on

 

[rightwinger]

In a free society we, as individuals, decide our relative values. Government, on the other hand is obligated to protect the rights of everyone equally, regardless of class, race, religion, etc... The state shouldn't be involved in class warfare or manipulating the economy toward specific ends. When it becomes involved, everyone with influence will seek to bend it toward their ends. And the wealthy will invariably have more influence. That's why, though it is obviously counter-intuitive to modern liberals, the only why to prevent policy that favors the rich is to keep government out of economic matters altogether.

Fine with me

Tax corporations at the same rate you tax individuals. We don't want the government to play favorites do we?

So again, I pay that "same rate" twice and you pay it once, which means it's not the "same rate."

Also, there would be massive layoffs, I thought you wanted to protect labor, change your mind?

You are not paying twice.....that is bullshit

 

[kaz]

Fine with me

Tax corporations at the same rate you tax individuals. We don't want the government to play favorites do we?

So again, I pay that "same rate" twice and you pay it once, which means it's not the "same rate."

Also, there would be massive layoffs, I thought you wanted to protect labor, change your mind?

You are not paying twice.....that is bullshit

I earn money

My corporation pays taxes on it

I pay personal taxes on it

Even you can handle this problem, big guy:

1 + 1 = ...

 

[rightwinger]

This shall be paid for eliminating useless leftist government programs.

The good things from this?

Many MANY Jobs will be created in America, since companies will return to their homeland.

Even better. Let's provide 1.4 trillion dollars of subsidies to big oil, the most profitable sector in world history. Then, let's reduce their effective tax rate to zero. Then let's spend 800 billion dollars a year protecting their oil fields in the Middle East.

But it gets better. After subsidizing over 100% of their costs, let's create a political movement that allows them to redeploy some of their profits into a massive media machine which convinces useful idiots that these mega corporations are victims. In addition to pop media, they can also fund think tanks who will pay unscrupulous academics to create and peddle flawed data to the same idiots.

But yes. This is a good question. What else can we do for the people who fund our elections, lobby our puppet politicians, and own our government?

And let's apologize to them for making them pay for their oil spills

 

[dblack]

Stop the double tax bullshit.......nobody is buying it

Not everyone understands it, granted, but it's not really that hard if you think about it. With ordinary businesses, taxes are levied on profits received by the owners. Corporate taxation treats the corporation itself as a "legal person", taxing the profits it accrues directly, and then taxes those gains again when the profits are disturbed to owners as income. As it stands, it's a reasonable concession for all the perks corporations receive from the state. But it's my view that those perks should end, along with the extra taxation.

That is not double taxation

The corporation pays taxes on its profits or loss
The owner as an individual only pays taxes on the profits he takes out of that business

Would you support a "family tax" based on the same logic?

Is a worker being double taxed too? He is paying taxes on money the company has already paid a tax on

The money paid to labor comes out of costs. Only the remaining profits are taxed.

 

[rightwinger]

So again, I pay that "same rate" twice and you pay it once, which means it's not the "same rate."

Also, there would be massive layoffs, I thought you wanted to protect labor, change your mind?

You are not paying twice.....that is bullshit

I earn money

My corporation pays taxes on it

I pay personal taxes on it

Even you can handle this problem, big guy:

1 + 1 = ...

Money s taxed every time it changes hands.

1+ 1=.....

 

[rightwinger]

Not everyone understands it, granted, but it's not really that hard if you think about it. With ordinary businesses, taxes are levied on profits received by the owners. Corporate taxation treats the corporation itself as a "legal person", taxing the profits it accrues directly, and then taxes those gains again when the profits are disturbed to owners as income. As it stands, it's a reasonable concession for all the perks corporations receive from the state. But it's my view that those perks should end, along with the extra taxation.

That is not double taxation

The corporation pays taxes on its profits or loss
The owner as an individual only pays taxes on the profits he takes out of that business

Would you support a "family tax" based on the same logic?

Is a worker being double taxed too? He is paying taxes on money the company has already paid a tax on

The money paid to labor comes out of costs. Only the remaining profits are taxed.

Same logic

An owner takes profit out as a salary ....he pays taxes on it
Same as a salary paid his employees

 

[dblack]

That is not double taxation

The corporation pays taxes on its profits or loss
The owner as an individual only pays taxes on the profits he takes out of that business

Would you support a "family tax" based on the same logic?

Is a worker being double taxed too? He is paying taxes on money the company has already paid a tax on

The money paid to labor comes out of costs. Only the remaining profits are taxed.

Same logic

An owner takes profit out as a salary ....he pays taxes on it
Same as a salary paid his employees

No, it's not. Owners take profits in the form of dividends or capital gains.

 

[itfitzme]

So again, I pay that "same rate" twice and you pay it once, which means it's not the "same rate."

Also, there would be massive layoffs, I thought you wanted to protect labor, change your mind?

You are not paying twice.....that is bullshit

I earn money

My corporation pays taxes on it

I pay personal taxes on it

Even you can handle this problem, big guy:

1 + 1 = ...

You are absolutely wrong here. The problem is your math.

The company pays employee wages as a costs.

Earnings = Revenues - Cost = Revenues - fixed costs - variable costs. Variable costs include wages.

The company pays taxes as a percentage of Earnings.

Tax = (t)(Earnings) = (t)(Revenues - fixed costs - variable costs)

Wages are subtracted before the tax rate is applied.

Then, income tax is on wages.

 

[kaz]

You are not paying twice.....that is bullshit

I earn money

My corporation pays taxes on it

I pay personal taxes on it

Even you can handle this problem, big guy:

1 + 1 = ...

Money s taxed every time it changes hands.

1+ 1=.....

My hands were the only ones involved.

You took a job provided by someone else and paid taxes on it once.

I earned my money myself, and paid taxes on it twice.

What's ironic is that you claim to care about labor, and labor pays for this a lot more than I do. Here's the fact whether you like it or not. My taxes are taken out of what I have to put in my business. I do not take less money for myself. When my money is taxed twice, that means there are several more people I can't afford to hire this year. People like you who live off me are unemployed still. Several more next year, ... Either way, I'm rich. It doesn't affect my lifestyle.

That you don't grasp reality doesn't protect you from reality.

 

[rightwinger]

Would you support a "family tax" based on the same logic?



The money paid to labor comes out of costs. Only the remaining profits are taxed.

Same logic

An owner takes profit out as a salary ....he pays taxes on it
Same as a salary paid his employees

No, it's not. Owners take profits in the form of dividends or capital gains.

Winner, winner....chicken dinner

There you have it

Owners take profit as capital gains or dividends rather than a salary. Because the system is set up so that they pay a lower tax rate that way

Wouldnt it be nice if employees could do the same?

 

[kaz]

You are not paying twice.....that is bullshit

I earn money

My corporation pays taxes on it

I pay personal taxes on it

Even you can handle this problem, big guy:

1 + 1 = ...

You are absolutely wrong here. The problem is your math.

The company pays employee wages as a costs.

Earnings = Revenues - Cost = Revenues - fixed costs - variable costs. Variable costs include wages.

The company pays taxes as a percentage of Earnings.

Tax = (t)(Earnings) = (t)(Revenues - fixed costs - variable costs)

Wages are subtracted before the tax rate is applied.

Then, income tax is on wages.

Thanks for the lecture on what I do for a living.

What you're missing is the final step. Profits are distributed to me (the owner) and I pay taxes on them again.

Also, most salaries are actually considered fixed costs. Only things such as commissions or if we hire temp employees or give hourly workers more hours might they be considered variable.

Fixed costs aren't generally truly fixed, they just are hard to change in the short run. In the long run, you can move into a smaller facility or lay off staff, but as a running cost they are fixed until you do something like that.

 

[itfitzme]

Yeah, there is a big problem in this thread with knowing how business accouting works.

There is no technical term of "profit". There are "gross profit", "net profit after taxes", and "economic profit", to list a few.

By all definitions, both "gross profit" and "net profit" is after costs of goods, as well as wages and salaries (including the owner's and CEO's salaries).

Owner's don't "takes profit out as a salary ". This is a complete mistatement that is caused by a lack of accurate and precise understanding of the business accounting.

Gross profit is after all expenses including owner's salaries. Net profit is after taxes are paid.

Shareholders (and often owners) do get dividends that are based on net profit. Dividend per share is net profit divided by shares out standing.

Absolutely correct, "Owners take profits in the form of dividends or capital gains."

Absolutely wrong, "An owner takes profit out as a salary ....he pays taxes on it. Same as a salary paid his employees"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_(accounting) is a good place to get the difference.

 

[itfitzme]

I earn money

My corporation pays taxes on it

I pay personal taxes on it

Even you can handle this problem, big guy:

1 + 1 = ...

You are absolutely wrong here. The problem is your math.

The company pays employee wages as a costs.

Earnings = Revenues - Cost = Revenues - fixed costs - variable costs. Variable costs include wages.

The company pays taxes as a percentage of Earnings.

Tax = (t)(Earnings) = (t)(Revenues - fixed costs - variable costs)

Wages are subtracted before the tax rate is applied.

Then, income tax is on wages.

Thanks for the lecture on what I do for a living.

What you're missing is the final step. Profits are distributed to me (the owner) and I pay taxes on them again.

Also, most salaries are actually considered fixed costs. Only things such as commissions or if we hire temp employees or give hourly workers more hours might they be considered variable.

Fixed costs aren't generally truly fixed, they just are hard to change in the short run. In the long run, you can move into a smaller facility or lay off staff, but as a running cost they are fixed until you do something like that.

"Thanks for the lecture on what I do for a living. "

Well, be sure to let everyone know that you don't know what you are talking about.

"Profits are distributed to me (the owner) and I pay taxes on them again."

There is no double taxation. That was someones basic point. Yeah, you pay taxes on your income. So? What is your point?

Because the point of "double taxation" is simply incorrect. Just goes to show us that people often do things for a living without a clue what they are actually doing. We see that all the time.