So What Do You Think Is A Fair And Decent Wage?...

[RKMBrown]

I guess the most difficult nagging question is, what do we do with the Millions of Americans who just aren't making it in today's America? Wages continue to decrease, while the cost of living continues to rise. That's just the current reality. So what's the answer?

Do you mean so they can get to the "dream" number or the "survive" number?

Minimum wage jobs are for people who choose to not participate in the "dream" and or are having the dream provided for by their parents or some other means, such as by sharing the dream costs by putting half a dozen minimum wage earners in one house.

To keep the dream alive the only thing we need to do is let free markets work by ending the dream killing systems we have created, such as permanent hand-out welfare programs. 11million permanently disabled, in the computer era? Cmon, give them a keyboard and a headset and put them to work.

I see under the dream wages as wages for people who are sharing the cost of the dream, nothing more. Thus I don't see a problem at all. The dream number is still EXTREMELY EASY TO HIT with a minimal amount of effort. For example, two income earner family on minimum teacher pay gets you the dream. One income earner on entry pay for any professional job gets you the dream. In most cases you just need one income earner to have a skill job and another income earner at minimum wage outside of child rearing years. Thus the only issue, really, is whether or not you try. If you don't try you are relying on these BS government programs to entitle you with the dream.

 

[paulitician]

Living Wage

For what little my op is worth, the MIT site seemed pretty on target with geographical areas I'm familar with.

I've heard of the EPI calculator, and believe it to be an attempt at even-handedness, but have not looked it over.

Hey, thanks for the info. Very enlightening. What number personally, would you throw out there?

Well, I've used the MIT site simply for my own interest. And I have no ideological truck in things like "how much should walmart pay." We're a corporate capitalist econ, and if the govt sees fit to provide assistance with food shelter healtcare etc, I can live with it, and we all differ as to how much is enough.

That said, the site indicates in urban Mississippi where I live 2 adults and 1 child need about 37,200 before taxes to have a liveable wage. I think that is pretty bare bones, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me, and I think it's probably what families in working class neighborhoods are making.

I knew a union organizer who pointed me to a calculator that factored in things like "how close is a library" but I can't find it anymore.

Well said. Yeah, i wanted to keep the political diatribes to a minimum. I was just looking for numbers. Because in the end, it's only about the numbers. Politics has nothing to do with it. The Landlord and Phone Company don't care who you voted for. They just want to get paid.

 

[RKMBrown]

Hey, thanks for the info. Very enlightening. What number personally, would you throw out there?

Well, I've used the MIT site simply for my own interest. And I have no ideological truck in things like "how much should walmart pay." We're a corporate capitalist econ, and if the govt sees fit to provide assistance with food shelter healtcare etc, I can live with it, and we all differ as to how much is enough.

That said, the site indicates in urban Mississippi where I live 2 adults and 1 child need about 37,200 before taxes to have a liveable wage. I think that is pretty bare bones, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me, and I think it's probably what families in working class neighborhoods are making.

I knew a union organizer who pointed me to a calculator that factored in things like "how close is a library" but I can't find it anymore.

Well said. Yeah, i wanted to keep the political diatribes to a minimum. I was just looking for numbers. Because in the end, it's only about the numbers. Politics has nothing to do with it. The Landlord and Phone Company don't care who you voted for. They just want to get paid.

Yes, agreed to a minimum. However, it is useful to point out that anyone who puts out even a minimum amount of effort should be able to easily obtain the American Dream on their own. Further, the only things stopping that from happening are our systems that encourage people to not even try.

 

[bendog]

Hey, thanks for the info. Very enlightening. What number personally, would you throw out there?

Well, I've used the MIT site simply for my own interest. And I have no ideological truck in things like "how much should walmart pay." We're a corporate capitalist econ, and if the govt sees fit to provide assistance with food shelter healtcare etc, I can live with it, and we all differ as to how much is enough.

That said, the site indicates in urban Mississippi where I live 2 adults and 1 child need about 37,200 before taxes to have a liveable wage. I think that is pretty bare bones, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me, and I think it's probably what families in working class neighborhoods are making.

I knew a union organizer who pointed me to a calculator that factored in things like "how close is a library" but I can't find it anymore.

Well said. Yeah, i wanted to keep the political diatribes to a minimum. I was just looking for numbers. Because in the end, it's only about the numbers. Politics has nothing to do with it. If the Jobs don't pay, the Taxpayers will. It's as simple as that.

Thanks. And it is an interesting topic with many implications. Those of us in private industry whose employers compensate us in part with healthcare, have employers getting tax breaks for doing so. Part of Paul Krugman's call to action in consience of a liberal was to, basically, end that tax treatment and use progressive taxes to give every worker the same healthcare. His argument was every worker gets a pay raise, so workers would come to love liberals.

And the flip side is if 20,000 is a liveable wage for a single adult, what is a healthy person's excuse for not being able to make 1,666 per month?

 

[RKMBrown]

Well, I've used the MIT site simply for my own interest. And I have no ideological truck in things like "how much should walmart pay." We're a corporate capitalist econ, and if the govt sees fit to provide assistance with food shelter healtcare etc, I can live with it, and we all differ as to how much is enough.

That said, the site indicates in urban Mississippi where I live 2 adults and 1 child need about 37,200 before taxes to have a liveable wage. I think that is pretty bare bones, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me, and I think it's probably what families in working class neighborhoods are making.

I knew a union organizer who pointed me to a calculator that factored in things like "how close is a library" but I can't find it anymore.

Well said. Yeah, i wanted to keep the political diatribes to a minimum. I was just looking for numbers. Because in the end, it's only about the numbers. Politics has nothing to do with it. If the Jobs don't pay, the Taxpayers will. It's as simple as that.

Thanks. And it is an interesting topic with many implications. Those of us in private industry whose employers compensate us in part with healthcare, have employers getting tax breaks for doing so. Part of Paul Krugman's call to action in consience of a liberal was to, basically, end that tax treatment and use progressive taxes to give every worker the same healthcare. His argument was every worker gets a pay raise, so workers would come to love liberals.

And the flip side is if 20,000 is a liveable wage for a single adult, what is a healthy person's excuse for not being able to make 1,666 per month?

Horshack voice on .... ooohh ooh Mr. Carter!!! If I keep income to minimum wage under 30hrs a week, they give me EBT money, and rent assistance, and utilities, and free phones, and free health care, and, and, ... It would be stupid to do any more than the government's poverty line cause then I'd loose my benefits.

 

[gallantwarrior]

FYI I recently calculated that number for my second son to illustrate to him what type of job he should shoot for if he wants to live in texas and have a family. My number came out to around 60k being a decent wage for a single income family with a stay at home mom. My number came out to around 70k (or 35k avg) for a two wage family with a goes to work mom. The point of discussion was what types of jobs are viable jobs to live out that American Dream.

That dream was a basic apartment, health care, utilities, food, two cars, etc. Nothing extravagant.

Looks like the MIT site pretty much agrees with my numbers.

My daughter and her husband were raising two children on half that, in Texas.

 

[TemplarKormac]

 

[Kosh]

How much does one need to provide shelter, food and clothing?

 

[paulitician]

Believe it or not, many in this country actually need those workers. What if all Fast Food Workers went on strike tomorrow? What would the implications be? I think you would be very surprised to realize how much these Workers are necessary to our People and the Economy.

All American Workers provide valuable necessary skills and services. I think it's time for Americans to start viewing American Workers in that fashion. That arrogant inhumane view of so-called 'Low-Skilled Workers' should become a thing of the past. These people are out there working hard. Their providing valuable and necessary services. Their not sitting on their couches munching chips and grabbing Government Entitlements. I'm glad their out there working and being productive. They deserve much more respect than they're getting.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Believe it or not, many in this country actually need those workers. What if all Fast Food Workers went on strike tomorrow?

If all the fast food workers in America went on strike at 9:00 A.M. tomorrow, they would all be replaced with equally skilled workers by 10:00 A.M.

An inconvenient truth,

What would the implications be? I think you would be very surprised to realize how much these Workers are necessary to our People and the Economy.

Fast food has an impact, but completely unskilled labor does not. Every job has 10 people apply for it.

Union goons can never explain why there are long lines of people begging to "be exploited?"

 

[Mac1958]

How much does one need to provide shelter, food and clothing?

And this is the problem that I can't get these people to address. The phrase "livable wage" is a mind-blowingly simplistic platitude.

What is a "living wage" for an 18-year old kid who lives with mom and dad and wants to put some money toward college?

How can that be the same for a 38-year old man with a wife and three kids who is too lazy to do what it takes to improve his skillset and get a better freaking job?

How can that be the same as a 68-year old lady who just needs to clear a few bucks a month to make ends meet?

That's just the first and most obvious layer in a long list of issues created when you assign ignorant, simplistic and arbitrary hourly wage figures to an entire industry.

This is a terribly important and complex issue, and we have people applying Romper Room business economics to it.

.

 

[Kosh]

How much does one need to provide shelter, food and clothing?

And this is the problem that I can't get these people to address. The phrase "livable wage" is a mind-blowingly simplistic platitude.

What is a "living wage" for an 18-year old kid who lives with mom and dad and wants to put some money toward college?

How can that be the same for a 38-year old man with a wife and three kids who is too lazy to do what it takes to improve his skillset and get a better freaking job?

How can that be the same as a 68-year old lady who just needs to clear a few bucks a month to make ends meet?

That's just the first and most obvious layer in a long list of issues created when you assign ignorant, simplistic and arbitrary hourly wage figures to an entire industry.

This is a terribly important and complex issue, and we have people applying Romper Room business economics to it.

.

Well that and how it causes the very goods and services to jump up along with those wage increases.

The far left has no clue on economics or mathematics. They do not understand that if someone is making $15 that a big mac will cost close to $10 to buy.

 

[Foxfyre]

How much does one need to provide shelter, food and clothing?

And this is the problem that I can't get these people to address. The phrase "livable wage" is a mind-blowingly simplistic platitude.

What is a "living wage" for an 18-year old kid who lives with mom and dad and wants to put some money toward college?

How can that be the same for a 38-year old man with a wife and three kids who is too lazy to do what it takes to improve his skillset and get a better freaking job?

How can that be the same as a 68-year old lady who just needs to clear a few bucks a month to make ends meet?

That's just the first and most obvious layer in a long list of issues created when you assign ignorant, simplistic and arbitrary hourly wage figures to an entire industry.

This is a terribly important and complex issue, and we have people applying Romper Room business economics to it.

.

And the other inconvenient truth is that the minimujm wage was never ever intended to be a living wage but the rationale was to prevent employers from using essentially slave labor by requiring them to pay their employees something. But the minimum wage was always intended as a minimum starting wage and was never intended to support anybody. Raising the minimum wage will be personally beneficial for some while shutting ever more difficult-to-employ people out of the work force altogether.

 

[paulitician]

Believe it or not, many in this country actually need those workers. What if all Fast Food Workers went on strike tomorrow?

If all the fast food workers in America went on strike at 9:00 A.M. tomorrow, they would all be replaced with equally skilled workers by 10:00 A.M.

An inconvenient truth,

What would the implications be? I think you would be very surprised to realize how much these Workers are necessary to our People and the Economy.

Fast food has an impact, but completely unskilled labor does not. Every job has 10 people apply for it.

Union goons can never explain why there are long lines of people begging to "be exploited?"

Sorry to break it to ya, but that's not the truth. The implications would be serious and far-reaching. Most would be very surprised to realize how important these Workers are to their daily lives. And that goes for many many other 'Undesirables' or 'Low-Skilled Workers.' They're actually vital to the Citizens and the Economy. Americans just need to stop with the arrogant inhumane mentality when it comes to 'Low-Skilled' Workers. Every American Worker provides skills & services to Millions of Americans who want and need them. Americans just need to change their approach. All American Workers deserve respect.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Untrue.

Because your union says so?

Sorry, bullshit doesn't cut it.

The implications would be serious and far-reaching.

Utter bullshit. The workers would be replaced in the blink of an eye. There are at least 10 people looking for each and every job. If one abandons it, 9 more are in line. Union lies do not change facts - EVEN if you need fast food to shore up your failing pension schemes.

Most would be very surprised to realize how important these Workers are to their daily lives. And that goes for many many other 'Undesirables' or 'Low-Skilled Workers.' They're actually vital to the Citizens and our Economy. Americans just need to stop with the arrogant inhumane mentality when it comes to 'Low-Skilled' Workers. Every American Worker provides skills & services to the Millions of Americans who want and need them. Americans just need to change their approach. All American Workers deserve respect.

Again, you paint a fiction where the workers would not be instantly replaced. It simply is not the case.

 

[Foxfyre]

It could be done. But i'm guessing some sort of Government assistance would still be required. Especially if there are children involved.

Why would there be children involved? Who would have kids when they can't afford them? Why should government be involved in our lives? Huh?

I'm just dealing with the reality. Children are usually involved. But you gave a number you feel someone can survive on in today's America. I appreciate that. Doesn't matter whether or not i agree with that number. It's your assessment. Thanks.

It hasn't been all that long ago that people who could not or would not support their kids had those kids taken away until the parents could and would support them. Such a concept is unthinkable now to those who think all people should be subsidized no matter how irresponsibile or lazy they are, most especially if they have children. Thus, we have generations of kids growing up seeing the parent be paid not to work and growing up thinking that if getting an education or holding a crappy job is too hard, then the government will provide. And believing they are owed by society.

So how about we return to societal expectations that people will get married before they have kids, people will have a paying job capable of supporting a family before they have kids, and people return to the idea that minimum wage is what they get paid when they are unskilled and not that much value to their employer, but they use it to acquire skills, work ethic, experience, and references so that they don't have to work for minimum wage? Wouldn't that be a far more compassionate and humane way to approach the problem?

DISCLAIMER: Those who through no fault of their own have fallen on hard times are NOT included in the above scenarios.

 

[Kosh]

Why would there be children involved? Who would have kids when they can't afford them? Why should government be involved in our lives? Huh?

I'm just dealing with the reality. Children are usually involved. But you gave a number you feel someone can survive on in today's America. I appreciate that. Doesn't matter whether or not i agree with that number. It's your assessment. Thanks.

It hasn't been all that long ago that people who could not or would not support their kids had those kids taken away until the parents could and would support them. Such a concept is unthinkable now to those who think all people should be subsidized no matter how irresponsibile or lazy they are, most especially if they have children. Thus, we have generations of kids growing up seeing the parent be paid not to work and growing up thinking that if getting an education or holding a crappy job is too hard, then the government will provide. And believing they are owed by society.

So how about we return to societal expectations that people will get married before they have kids, people will have a paying job capable of supporting a family before they have kids, and people return to the idea that minimum wage is what they get paid when they are unskilled and not that much value to their employer, but they use it to acquire skills, work ethic, experience, and references so that they don't have to work for minimum wage? Wouldn't that be a far more compassionate and humane way to approach the problem?

DISCLAIMER: Those who through no fault of their own have fallen on hard times are NOT included in the above scenarios.

That sets up a big conundrum.

Should a person with a PhD get the same wage or more than someone with a GED?

Should a person with no education get the same wage or more as one that completed high school?

Who would decide such complex problems?

 

[paulitician]

Untrue.

Because your union says so?

Sorry, bullshit doesn't cut it.

The implications would be serious and far-reaching.

Utter bullshit. The workers would be replaced in the blink of an eye. There are at least 10 people looking for each and every job. If one abandons it, 9 more are in line. Union lies do not change facts - EVEN if you need fast food to shore up your failing pension schemes.

Most would be very surprised to realize how important these Workers are to their daily lives. And that goes for many many other 'Undesirables' or 'Low-Skilled Workers.' They're actually vital to the Citizens and our Economy. Americans just need to stop with the arrogant inhumane mentality when it comes to 'Low-Skilled' Workers. Every American Worker provides skills & services to the Millions of Americans who want and need them. Americans just need to change their approach. All American Workers deserve respect.

Again, you paint a fiction where the workers would not be instantly replaced. It simply is not the case.

That wouldn't solve any problems. If all Fast Food Workers did go on Strike tomorrow, the implications would be very serious and far-reaching. Yes they would possibly be replaced, but at an incredibly large cost. You would be better off just conceding and paying them a bit more.

These Workers really are more valuable than most think. They're a big part of many Citizens' daily lives. And the same can be said about many many other Workers. They provide skills & services to the Millions of Americans who want and need them. Americans just need to start respecting all American Workers. They are valuable important people. They're not the worthless undesirables many make them out to be. In fact, without them, the Nation would grind to a halt.

 

[BlackSand]

Sorry to break it to ya, but that's not the truth. The implications would be serious and far-reaching. Most would be very surprised to realize how important these Workers are to their daily lives. And that goes for many many other 'Undesirables' or 'Low-Skilled Workers.' They're actually vital to the Citizens and the Economy. Americans just need to stop with the arrogant inhumane mentality when it comes to 'Low-Skilled' Workers. Every American Worker provides skills & services to Millions of Americans who want and need them. Americans just need to change their approach. All American Workers deserve respect.

In the first place "low skilled workers" doesn't mean they have no skills, are undesirable or do not work.
It means their skills are not advanced ... Therefore they don't get paid as much because it isn't hard to find them.
Every worker is valuable and they do get respect ... It is called "pay".

If you aren't getting the "pay" or "respect" you want ... Then you better get some more skills.

.

 

[Foxfyre]

I guess the most difficult nagging question is, what do we do with the Millions of Americans who just aren't making it in today's America? Wages continue to decrease, while the cost of living continues to increase. That's just the current reality. So what's the answer?

To me, the answer is to throw all anti-business, really clueless politicians out of Washington, elect folks who have run businesses and know what encourages commerce and industry and what inhibits it and/or drives it out of the country. Get rid of all anti-business rules, laws, regulations, and programs. Leave just enough regulation in place to keep us from doing economic or physical violence to each other, and then get government out of the way and let the American work ethic, ambition, ingenuity, and initiative fix the economy. Nothing raises wages with zero negative consequences more efficiently and effectively than full employment.