Stand and be counted or sit down and shut up: Reflections on Colin as a patriot

[Missouri_Mike]

Putting Kaepernick in the same league as Rosa Parks is stupid.

They are both protesting racism. What's the difference?

What racism is that dumbass and now these other players protesting?

 

[Billo_Really]

He's not on a team because of his behavior. He made himself into an embarrassment and a problem for any team that hires him. They don't want the problem.

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Conservative65]

What is he protesting?

The treatment by police to people of color.

OK, well the police kill more than twice a many White suspects as Black suspects, so his protest is racist and bogus

Kaepernick and those that support him don't care about the white ones. It doesn't fit their narrative.

 

[Billo_Really]

What racism is that dumbass and now these other players protesting?

What happened in Ferguson, MO. last year? What comes to mind when you hear the words, "I can't breathe!"?

Do the math.

 

[Billo_Really]

Kaepernick and those that support him don't care about the white ones. It doesn't fit their narrative.

What's that based on?

 

[Conservative65]

Kaepernick and those that support him don't care about the white ones. It doesn't fit their narrative.

What's that based on?

More whites are killed by police each year than blacks. Interesting that he only kneels to protest the blacks being killed.

 

[usmbguest5318]

??? "For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression" is how that sentence begins. Have you not see all the "carrying on on USMB about "free speech this" and "free speech that?"

• Threads about free speech and that have the term "free speech" in the thread title -- Search Results for Query: free speech | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

"Free" speech is a statement to its value ...

We can honor and uphold free speech ... But that doesn't make anyone a patriot.
Actions and substantial cost/risk give speech value.
Colin would only be a patriot if he was willing to burden the cost associated with his risk.

Otherwise ... A speech is just empty words.
Where they may be passionate or appealing to some ... The value is decided by the recipient and not the speaker.

.

We can honor and uphold free speech ... But that doesn't make anyone a patriot.

Do you think that I was averring or implying that honoring and upholding free speech makes one a patriot? Perhaps you didn't read the OP?

Let me explain....

The thread title speaks of "standing and being counted" and it identifies a theme of patriotism. Later in the OP, I wrote:

The U.S. has a long tradition of patriots who in their day "stood and were counted," people who openly spoke up about what they felt was wrong with their country and acted to see the ill(s) ended.

That's the sentence that provides the "big clue" to realizing that I'm not suggesting or stating that speaking freely is in and of itself patriotic...What makes one's expression patriotic is that one is using one's voice to advocate for improving something one sees as wrong with one's country, and one's advocating in a public way whereby one jeopardizes something of current or future value to oneself.

It's important to realize that there is another key distinguishing factor as goes Colin and other folks like him, or me or you. That factor is that it's not our job to rail against what we feel needs correcting or to advocate for building upon what's extant and good. That is the job of our elected and appointed leaders, but merely doing their job doesn't in and of itself make them patriots, though some of them may indeed be patriots; it just takes more for them to earn that moniker. Nobody deserves to be lauded for simply doing their job, and that's so of every job. I alluded to that concept with this statement:

"Everyday citizens" (people who hold neither formal nor overwhelming economic power) like Kaepernick do not deserve scorn and ridicule for doing exactly that.

At the very end of the OP, I remarked about free speech, as seen from the context of how USMB members remark upon it and the 1st Amendment. I did so with the following statement

Aside:
For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression, one'd think that not one soul here would countenance any sort of recriminations against Colin Kaepernick.

Notice that I put that word "aside" at the start of the comment. I put that word there because the remark that follows really isn't at all the theme of the OP. It's merely an ancillary thought.​

Hopefully that makes it clear to you that I agree with you that one's merely upholding or exercising free speech doesn't a patriot make. That Colin spoke freely by kneeling during the anthem isn't what I argued makes him a patriot. His kneeling during the anthem, his exercise of free speech and risk to which he exposed himself by freely expressing himself, is merely a foil that illustrates his patriotism and his genuine desire to see his country become a "more perfect union."

All I said is actions speak louder than words ... And he didn't stand up ... He bent knee ...

.

Okay.

he didn't stand up ... He bent knee ...

LOL

(I'm hoping that's you just you being funny and not serious. It's hard to know because I don't recognize your ID and there are folks on here would write that as a serious rebuttal. You don't seem that way....but on USMB, one cannot always be sure unless and until one is familiar with the other member's remarks.)

 

[Billo_Really]

More whites are killed by police each year than blacks. Interesting that he only kneels to protest the blacks being killed.

That's because whites make up 62% of the country, as opposed to blacks who make up 24% of the country. Blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by cops than whites.

 

[LeftofLeft]

There are more whites killed by police than blacks. Try again.

Even if that was true, it doesn't nagate the deliberate murder of blacks by racist cops.

No one condones the deliberate murder of blacks by racist cops. The problem is that even when a black suspect with a weapon or is threatening the life of law enforcement by resisting arrest or going for the officer's weapon and dies as a result, without reason or fact, the officer deliberately killed a black person due to racism according to Many on that side of the protest.

The size and mass of your protest relative to the frequency of actual racist cops deliberately killing black men without cause is way out of proportion.

 

[Billo_Really]

I'll stand proudly.. You can be a traitorous piece of shit if you choose to do so.

Saying America embraces racism, is being a traitor to this country.

 

[xotoxi]

When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
-- Earl Nightingale [If you do nothing else with this post, listen to Earl]​

To my mind, a patriot, a genuine one, is a person who looks objectively at his/her country, sees the the reprobate and righteous, and in turn praises the good and denounces and moves to alter the bad.

Colin is clearly not trying to forsake his citizenship; thus he must necessarily see more good than bad about the U.S. He's doing what people of integrity do: bringing to bear the resources at their disposal to try to effect corrections of that which they see as errant.

"Everyday citizens" (people who hold neither formal nor overwhelming economic power) like Kaepernick do not deserve scorn and ridicule for doing exactly that. One need not agree with them or him; however, they and he deserve our respect for...

(a) unlike so many people -- especially some members here [1] -- who think of political discourse and conversation as entertainment,
(b) unlike so many who rail about all they think needs correcting yet won't get off their asses and join in discussions among individuals and organizations whereby one can actually be part of effecting positive change [2],​

Colin Kaepernick is not anonymously sitting before a computer screen typing vulgarities and personal slights at every person and idea that offends him or that doesn't align with the partisan rhetoric he heard on his favorite propaganda show. The man is expressing himself peacefully and quietly.

The U.S. has a long tradition of patriots who in their day "stood and were counted," people who openly spoke up about what they felt was wrong with their country and acted to see the ill(s) ended. Just a very few examples and individuals are noted below.

• 1668 Quaker Petition against slavery -- Garret Hendricks, Derick de Graeff, Francis Daniel Pastorius and Abraham up Den Graeff
• Boston Tea Party -- Samuel Adams and the Sons of Liberty
• American Revolution - [you had better know enough of the names that I don't need to list any]
• Civil Rights Movement
  • 1919 Chicago Riots -- 1500+ individuals who lost their lives and/or homes
  • 1939 Lincoln Memorial Concert -- Marian Anderson, Charlie Russel and Eleanor Roosevelt,
  • Montgomery Bus Boycott -- Rosa Parks and thousands of others who daily gave up hours of their lives due to unrecoverable time lost by having to find alternate means of transportation.
  • 1963 March on Washington -- Martin L. King, Jr.
  • 1965 Selma March -- MLK, Jr., Rep. John Lewis, J.L. Chestnut, Stokely Carmichael, Fay Powell, Hosea Williams, and many others.
  • Sit Ins -- I think the Woolworth's Lunch Counter one may be the most famous, but I have no idea of the names of the people who participated in them. I don't know that the things even were formally organized rather than being an organic development.
• Women's Suffrage and Equal Rights Movement
  • Seneca Falls Convention -- Lucretia Mott and Elizabeth Cady Stanton
    
  • 1968 Miss America Protest ("bra burning" -- the protest was real; the bra burning was not) -- Robin Morgan and some several hundred other women
• Vietnam Antiwar Movement
• Anti Globalization/Anti-WTO-IMF Movement
• Labor Movement
  • 1939 GM Tool and Die Workers Strike -- Walter Reuther
• Occupy Wall Street Movement

When I consider Colin Kaepernick's actions at a football game, I'm reminded of the "sit in" movement. That man's protest is nothing other than kneeling quietly and waiting for the game to start. Silence is a powerful thing.


Note:

1. If one feels the need, one can scan for posts in the following threads to find an assortment of direct and indirect examples:
   • Why so little serious debate?
   • You're here...You should consider going there and sharing your ideas where it matters...
   • Policy debate and discussion
   • Policy debate and discussion
   • Have You Heard About the new Ku Ku Klan?
2. Some examples include but are not limited to organizations noted in the following posts:
   -- Policy debate and discussion
   -- You're here...You should consider going there and sharing your ideas where it matters...

Aside:

For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression, one'd think that not one soul here would countenance any sort of recriminations against Colin Kaepernick.​

There are many here who will say that you only listed two examples of Patriotism (tea party and revolution), while the rest of the examples are anti-American.

Those who believe that are worthless and useless.

 

[Billo_Really]

No one condones the deliberate murder of blacks by racist cops. The problem is that even when a black suspect with a weapon or is threatening the life of law enforcement by resisting arrest or going for the officer's weapon and dies as a result, without reason or fact, the officer deliberately killed a black person due to racism according to Many on that side of the protest.

The size and mass of your protest relative to the frequency of actual racist cops deliberately killing black men without cause is way out of proportion.

Blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by cops than whites.

Why is holding cops accountable for illegal actions so outrageous?

 

[jknowgood]

I'll stand proudly.. You can be a traitorous piece of shit if you choose to do so.

Saying America embraces racism, is being a traitor to this country.

No sitting during our anthem is telling our troops screw you for your service and sacrifice.

 

[Conservative65]

No one condones the deliberate murder of blacks by racist cops. The problem is that even when a black suspect with a weapon or is threatening the life of law enforcement by resisting arrest or going for the officer's weapon and dies as a result, without reason or fact, the officer deliberately killed a black person due to racism according to Many on that side of the protest.

The size and mass of your protest relative to the frequency of actual racist cops deliberately killing black men without cause is way out of proportion.

Blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by cops than whites.

Why is holding cops accountable for illegal actions so outrageous?

The courts have said many of those actions weren't illegal. Sounds to me like you don't like the results of the courts being asked.

 

[Billo_Really]

America doesn't embrace it. Saying so makes you one.

Calling someone a traitor for exercising a Constitutional right by protesting racism, is racism.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Kapernick is today's Rosa Parks.

An unemployed Rosa Parks. LOL!

 

[Aries]

When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
-- Earl Nightingale [If you do nothing else with this post, listen to Earl]​

To my mind, a patriot, a genuine one, is a person who looks objectively at his/her country, sees the the reprobate and righteous, and in turn praises the good and denounces and moves to alter the bad.

Colin is clearly not trying to forsake his citizenship; thus he must necessarily see more good than bad about the U.S. He's doing what people of integrity do: bringing to bear the resources at their disposal to try to effect corrections of that which they see as errant.

"Everyday citizens" (people who hold neither formal nor overwhelming economic power) like Kaepernick do not deserve scorn and ridicule for doing exactly that. One need not agree with them or him; however, they and he deserve our respect for...

(a) unlike so many people -- especially some members here [1] -- who think of political discourse and conversation as entertainment,
(b) unlike so many who rail about all they think needs correcting yet won't get off their asses and join in discussions among individuals and organizations whereby one can actually be part of effecting positive change [2],​

Colin Kaepernick is not anonymously sitting before a computer screen typing vulgarities and personal slights at every person and idea that offends him or that doesn't align with the partisan rhetoric he heard on his favorite propaganda show. The man is expressing himself peacefully and quietly.

The U.S. has a long tradition of patriots who in their day "stood and were counted," people who openly spoke up about what they felt was wrong with their country and acted to see the ill(s) ended. Just a very few examples and individuals are noted below.

• 1668 Quaker Petition against slavery -- Garret Hendricks, Derick de Graeff, Francis Daniel Pastorius and Abraham up Den Graeff
• Boston Tea Party -- Samuel Adams and the Sons of Liberty
• American Revolution - [you had better know enough of the names that I don't need to list any]
• Civil Rights Movement
  • 1919 Chicago Riots -- 1500+ individuals who lost their lives and/or homes
  • 1939 Lincoln Memorial Concert -- Marian Anderson, Charlie Russel and Eleanor Roosevelt,
  • Montgomery Bus Boycott -- Rosa Parks and thousands of others who daily gave up hours of their lives due to unrecoverable time lost by having to find alternate means of transportation.
  • 1963 March on Washington -- Martin L. King, Jr.
  • 1965 Selma March -- MLK, Jr., Rep. John Lewis, J.L. Chestnut, Stokely Carmichael, Fay Powell, Hosea Williams, and many others.
  • Sit Ins -- I think the Woolworth's Lunch Counter one may be the most famous, but I have no idea of the names of the people who participated in them. I don't know that the things even were formally organized rather than being an organic development.
• Women's Suffrage and Equal Rights Movement
  • Seneca Falls Convention -- Lucretia Mott and Elizabeth Cady Stanton
    
  • 1968 Miss America Protest ("bra burning" -- the protest was real; the bra burning was not) -- Robin Morgan and some several hundred other women
• Vietnam Antiwar Movement
• Anti Globalization/Anti-WTO-IMF Movement
• Labor Movement
  • 1939 GM Tool and Die Workers Strike -- Walter Reuther
• Occupy Wall Street Movement

When I consider Colin Kaepernick's actions at a football game, I'm reminded of the "sit in" movement. That man's protest is nothing other than kneeling quietly and waiting for the game to start. Silence is a powerful thing.


Note:

1. If one feels the need, one can scan for posts in the following threads to find an assortment of direct and indirect examples:
   • Why so little serious debate?
   • You're here...You should consider going there and sharing your ideas where it matters...
   • Policy debate and discussion
   • Policy debate and discussion
   • Have You Heard About the new Ku Ku Klan?
2. Some examples include but are not limited to organizations noted in the following posts:
   -- Policy debate and discussion
   -- You're here...You should consider going there and sharing your ideas where it matters...

Aside:

For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression, one'd think that not one soul here would countenance any sort of recriminations against Colin Kaepernick.​

I attended a liberal arts college, some time ago. I was a basketball player. So I participated in many games and attended the games of our men's team as well. We had black students who did not stand for the national anthem. No one messed with them, no one was offended or upset. If we asked them why, they explained it and we listened creating an open discussion on social injustices. Our college president did not run to Twitter and cry about it.

 

[Billo_Really]

The courts have said many of those actions weren't illegal. Sounds to me like you don't like the results of the courts being asked.

"How can the life of such a man
Be in the palm of some fool's hand?
To see him obviously framed
Couldn't help but make me feel ashamed
To live in a land
Where justice is a game."
- Hurricane by Bob Dylan

 

[jknowgood]

No sitting during our anthem is telling our troops screw you for your service and sacrifice.

Bad analogy. Troops do not defend racism.

But since you brought it up, how about not being so cavalier in putting our troops in harms way to fight a corporate war for corporate benefits?

They are protesting the flag, which represents the United States. In which our great troops defend daily. In which those dumbass athletes are disrespecting. So should white athletes disrespect the flag protesting against racist black cops? In your theory, all white people should've keeled during the anthem for eight years, because we had a racist black president.

 

[Aries]

Kaepernick and those that support him don't care about the white ones. It doesn't fit their narrative.

What's that based on?

More whites are killed by police each year than blacks. Interesting that he only kneels to protest the blacks being killed.

That's because whites have a larger population. In relation to population size, blacks are killed at a higher rate.

Math.