Swiss Region Bans Burqas

[Tilly]

The Danish cabinet too have decided to ban the niqab in public places, with heavy fines for those who attempt to flout it.

Tons of assholes who can't deal with freedom in the world. Just because it's a pile-on doesn't mean it's right, which it isn't.

These countries are quite tolerant, but if you tolerate everything you wave goodbye to your own culture and beliefs you have fought for. The niqab is a symbol of opression, separateness, a lack of willingness to embrace the culture you now live in, and Wahhabism. It has no place in countries that have already fought their wars for women's rights. I do hope all European countries join in this rejection of the niqab and all it stands for.

Your lack of support for religious freedom has already been noted. Since religion is oppressive, let's just ban it? That work for you?

Banning religion would make no difference to me personally, but such an action would of course be absurd.

It's been done, and doesn't seem like it would bother you eh? Then again, you aren't a liberal and don't defend the rights of others.

I know it's been done, creepy. And I think my post makes it clear it is not an idea I would personally even entertain, ie it's absurd

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Tons of assholes who can't deal with freedom in the world. Just because it's a pile-on doesn't mean it's right, which it isn't.

These countries are quite tolerant, but if you tolerate everything you wave goodbye to your own culture and beliefs you have fought for. The niqab is a symbol of opression, separateness, a lack of willingness to embrace the culture you now live in, and Wahhabism. It has no place in countries that have already fought their wars for women's rights. I do hope all European countries join in this rejection of the niqab and all it stands for.

Your lack of support for religious freedom has already been noted. Since religion is oppressive, let's just ban it? That work for you?

Banning religion would make no difference to me personally, but such an action would of course be absurd.

It's been done, and doesn't seem like it would bother you eh? Then again, you aren't a liberal and don't defend the rights of others.

I know it's been done, creepy. And I think my post makes it clear it is not an idea I would personally even entertain, ie it's absurd

Not entertain doesn't mean not approve of? You sure as heck don't care about the Muslims having freedom of religion.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I'm being overly dramatic to make a point that the Muslims, including bin Laden, have been trying to tell you. A woman, in this case that one who strips to her panties, at least she wears underpants, on stage in that film is exactly the kind of thing they find so profoundly immoral and Western society allows it, even promotes it by telling woman it's okay to look like a hooker if you're still a good girl at heart. Well, what you dress like presents to the world more than you'd want to at that point, like this.

Not enough skin, and way too much skin...

The girl in the bikini would look a lot better if she had just a little bit of a tan, I think.

There is nothing wrong with how she is dressed. She is at the beach and it's hot!!!

There's a lot wrong with it actually, and the ink on her bare butt doesn't help.

It's not so hot that she couldn't have her bottom covered, and she should.

Her attire is for this age, not her age:

Those kinds of bathing suits are out of style! Lol! Nobody wears those except old ladies and fat people!

Like this you mean?

Taylor Swift’s Red Polka Dot Bikini: Where to Buy It

And

And (Katy Perry)

Presents are best when they are wrapped...

God, you are creepy.

Nope, I'm brutally honest (and really fucking smart). Use it to your advantage, there are very few of us left around only, be careful what you ask, you may not like the answer.

That's an old joke BTW. A woman wants to know what her husband really thinks, so he tells her and realizes what a terrible mistake she just made in asking. Illusions and lies, as well as sex and power and money and religion, make the world go around...

 

[Tilly]

These countries are quite tolerant, but if you tolerate everything you wave goodbye to your own culture and beliefs you have fought for. The niqab is a symbol of opression, separateness, a lack of willingness to embrace the culture you now live in, and Wahhabism. It has no place in countries that have already fought their wars for women's rights. I do hope all European countries join in this rejection of the niqab and all it stands for.

Your lack of support for religious freedom has already been noted. Since religion is oppressive, let's just ban it? That work for you?

Banning religion would make no difference to me personally, but such an action would of course be absurd.

It's been done, and doesn't seem like it would bother you eh? Then again, you aren't a liberal and don't defend the rights of others.

I know it's been done, creepy. And I think my post makes it clear it is not an idea I would personally even entertain, ie it's absurd

Not entertain doesn't mean not approve of? You sure as heck don't care about the Muslims having freedom of religion.

You don't mind Christians having their heads hacked off, can't bring yourself to express anything other than boredom about that, but here you are, still having a fit over European countries banning the niqab, which you've already demonstrated is also worn by Jewish women. I'm afraid I put lives before fake demonstrations of piety, and you don't. I would be ashamed to be you.

 

[Tilly]

The girl in the bikini would look a lot better if she had just a little bit of a tan, I think.

There is nothing wrong with how she is dressed. She is at the beach and it's hot!!!

There's a lot wrong with it actually, and the ink on her bare butt doesn't help.

It's not so hot that she couldn't have her bottom covered, and she should.

Her attire is for this age, not her age:

Those kinds of bathing suits are out of style! Lol! Nobody wears those except old ladies and fat people!

Like this you mean?

Taylor Swift’s Red Polka Dot Bikini: Where to Buy It

And

And (Katy Perry)

Presents are best when they are wrapped...

God, you are creepy.

Nope, I'm brutally honest (and really fucking smart). Use it to your advantage, there are very few of us left around only, be careful what you ask, you may not like the answer.

That's an old joke BTW. A woman wants to know what her husband really thinks, so he tells her and realizes what a terrible mistake she just made in asking. Illusions and lies, as well as sex and power and money and religion, make the world go raound...

No, you really are creepy.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

[

No, you really are creepy.

To the vast majority of humans, I'm sure that I am. Since I'd like to wipe them all off of the face of the earth, including myself, that's to be expected.

So, how about those Seahawks eh?

 

[Tilly]

[

No, you really are creepy.

To the vast majority of humans, I'm sure that I am. Since I'd like to wipe them all off of the face of the earth, including myself....

Then I suggest, most sincerely, that you see a doctor

 

[PaintMyHouse]

[

No, you really are creepy.

To the vast majority of humans, I'm sure that I am. Since I'd like to wipe them all off of the face of the earth, including myself....

Then I suggest, most sincerely, that you see a doctor

In the many decades I have walked the earth I have, at various times for various reasons, seen several. The problem - being smart and sane here makes one nuts.

As I always tell the Christians, stop worrying about Hell, you already live here.

 

[Tilly]

[

No, you really are creepy.

To the vast majority of humans, I'm sure that I am. Since I'd like to wipe them all off of the face of the earth, including myself....

Then I suggest, most sincerely, that you see a doctor

In the many decades I have walked the earth I have, at various times for various reasons, seen several. The problem - being smart and sane here makes one nuts.

As I always tell the Christians, stop worrying about Hell, you already live here.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that.
And what do you tell the Muslims about jahannam?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

[

No, you really are creepy.

To the vast majority of humans, I'm sure that I am. Since I'd like to wipe them all off of the face of the earth, including myself....

Then I suggest, most sincerely, that you see a doctor

In the many decades I have walked the earth I have, at various times for various reasons, seen several. The problem - being smart and sane here makes one nuts.

As I always tell the Christians, stop worrying about Hell, you already live here.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that.
And what do you tell the Muslims about jahannam?

Same thing.

There is no Heaven, no Hell (but here), and dead is dead. And should God exist, do not reject what he has given you trying for a better and eternal version of lige, you are wasting the one that you have. If I were God, I'd be seriously pissed off about that.

Jahannam is Hell BTW, kiddos. I looked it up.

 

[Tilly]

Well, I guess we can agree about that And now I have stuff to do. Try not to let your smarts make you too nuts today

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Well, I guess we can agree about that And now I have stuff to do. Try not to let your smarts make you too nuts today

As always....

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

The garment is specific to a religion. If they banned kippahs a Muslim man couldn't wear one either but it's an item worn mainly by Jews, and it's a choice...

I have not read the whole thread (yet), but early on I said BAN it. I want to say very clearly PaintMyHouseYellow is showing good to great arguments against my first instinct. Maybe I am wrong? PaintMyHouseYellow has shown plenty of "costumes" that could be considered same thing.

I am going to re-consider. Keep packing those AK-47 underneath whilst' I ponder.

Well, I already posted to this thread that I definitely think it should be a choice. If a woman feels comfortable wearing a burka or something else because that is how she was raised and she feels uncomfortable being any other way, then she should be able to wear it. It is wrong to force someone to wear one, but I think it is also wrong to ban them from wearing it except in certain situations of course.

She was raised wearing one in the POCS (piece of camel shit) country she came from, but then decided to move to a Western nation where burkas are not looked upon favorably. It's outrageous how we've lost sight of the purpose of immigration and the obligation of the immigrant to assimilate into the country they are moving to. If they can't assimilate, send them back.

 

[Tilly]

26 September, 2013
1.1k
50
If opposition to the face veil is bigoted then my grandmother and great-aunt are bigots for describing their own experience of wearing the burqa in the 1930s and 40s as "physical and mental slavery".


Lejla Kuric is an independent artist interested in social justice, secularism and gender equality

The burqa and niqab, face veils worn by a minority of Muslim women, are often misrepresented as something harmless, something we should be comfortable with.

This narrative assumes that all women choose to wear the face veil of their own free will; that this is not oppression but merely sign of deep devotion; and that veiled women are not isolated from the society.

Any challenge to these assumptions is unjustly branded as a sure sign of racism, orientalism and Islamophobia.

If opposition to the face veil is bigoted then my grandmother and great-aunt are bigots for describing their own experience of wearing the burqa in the 1930s and 40s as “physical and mental slavery”.

Despite the best effort of many to present face veiling as harmless, it depersonalises women and assigns them an existence different and separate from men, burdened by social norms such as a woman is the custody of her male guardians, strict gender segregation, non-essential conversation with men is prohibited etc.

It is, by design, a device of exclusion and apartheid.

Assuming that the face veil is a choice, many liberals conveniently forget to mention how this choice comes about and what the rationale behind it is. It is fundamentally different to any other type of clothing, an embodiment of a misogynist worldview that perceives a woman’s body as harmful.

Unless women are covered up, men will be compelled to fornicate and rape them. Islamic cleric Sheik Taj Aldin as-Hilali puts it like this:

“If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside… without cover, and the cats come to eat it… whose fault is it, the cats’ or the uncovered meat’s? The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred.”

The “immodest” woman is also an “unwrapped lollipop” irresistible to flies; an “unwrapped sweet” covered in dirt, an evil temptress and so on – a rationale based on dehumanising rape apologia and victim blaming.

The lollypop on the left represents a veiled woman; the lollipop on the right a woman without veil. Flies represent men. The copy translates as: ”
You can’t stop them.
 But you can protect yourself.
Your creator has your best interest at heart.”

This type of meme is also popular on the social media: Pure veiled women go to heaven, while immoral temptresses go to hell.

Bina Shah, a Pakistani writer, notes:

“Many people use blackmail to convince women to wear hijab or niqab: you won’t be a good Muslim, you’ll go to hell, you’re pleasing God, you’ll be subject to harassment and molestation if you go outside without a veil. By playing on women’s vulnerabilities, by bringing up the imagery of women being sexually violated or bringing shame upon their families by walking around unveiled, by implying a woman’s morality is linked to how she dresses, women are coerced into believing they are making a free choice in the thousands and millions, every day of their lives.”

Assuming that males are sex-obsessed beasts, with no control over their animalistic instincts, is also demeaning to men, and arguably leads to a rape culture in which women are blamed for their own violation and sexual abuse. Men are afforded no agency or responsibility. “We’re all rape accomplices”, as Kunwar Khuldune Shahid bluntly puts it in this brilliant piece.

The face veil should be opposed because it is an inherently sexist and misogynist concept at odds with all precepts of an egalitarian society. The ability to critically address certain aspects of Islamic culture that are sexist does not, however, imply a blanket rejection of Islam or Muslims.

There is no explicit scriptural justification for face covering in the Quran, however Salafis, an ultra-puritanical movement, demand it.

Backed by Arabian petrodollars, the Salafi movement has gained significant influence in mosques, schools, Muslim organisations and communities. This has led to increased pressure on girls and women to cede to regressive patriarchy – from vigilante “Muslim Patrols” enforcing dress codes on the streets of London, to gender segregated events at our universities, and a school in Tower Hamlets forcing girls young as 11 year old to wear the face veil.

The goal of religious zealots is to carve out increasingly larger areas of public space where they set their own rules.

Some women wear religious clothing not as an expression of piety, but as political statement against ‘Western Imperialism’. Spurred by Islamist organisations, their intention is to deliberately provoke a culture war.

A blanket ban on the face veil would be wrong – based on a liberal principle that adults can make lifestyle choices that are self-restrictive and that state should interfere as little as possible.

However limited, context based bans are right and justified, based on the following egalitarian principles:

– the state must assert gender equality within its institutions

– religious freedom is not absolute, other concerns such as security or identification must be taken into consideration

– the state must protect those coerced

– the state must protect children not old enough to make an informed choice

Civil right activists, concerned about oppressive notion of ‘telling Muslim women what to wear’, should first look to an army of proselytisers, preachers and self-serving community leaders who do exactly that: telling us what we must and what we must not wear down to the tiniest detail.

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[Coyote]

The west or the muslim world cannot be forced to "conform" to primitive pre islamic ideas and mistaken salafi. Teach men to lower their eye in respect for a woman's beauty. If you don't understand Islam you have no bloody reason to be telling others what is and is not required by the faith.

Quite funny how you as a non-muslim have the hubris to lecture muslims on how to practice their own religion.

In fact, your self righteous, "I know what's best for you" behavior is indicative of why the west has problems in the middle east. .....

No, we're just suggesting that those who want to immigrate to countries where Islam isn't dominant shouldn't expect the same culture as the countries they left. If you camel lovers want to practice your religion in an environment that doesn't present friction to it, stay in your own camel shit countries.

That applies to anyone immigrating anywhere you know. Not just Muslims.

 

[Coyote]

The garment is specific to a religion. If they banned kippahs a Muslim man couldn't wear one either but it's an item worn mainly by Jews, and it's a choice...

I have not read the whole thread (yet), but early on I said BAN it. I want to say very clearly PaintMyHouseYellow is showing good to great arguments against my first instinct. Maybe I am wrong? PaintMyHouseYellow has shown plenty of "costumes" that could be considered same thing.

I am going to re-consider. Keep packing those AK-47 underneath whilst' I ponder.

Well, I already posted to this thread that I definitely think it should be a choice. If a woman feels comfortable wearing a burka or something else because that is how she was raised and she feels uncomfortable being any other way, then she should be able to wear it. It is wrong to force someone to wear one, but I think it is also wrong to ban them from wearing it except in certain situations of course.

I agree...once we start banning certain types of clothing...where do we stop? I totally agree with banning it in certain contexts - certain professions where it's a hinderance to doing a job or a safety hazard. But if someone wants to walk down the street wearing a burka...it's their choice in a free country just as it's their choice, as a Muslim woman in a free country not to wear it.

 

[Coyote]

The west or the muslim world cannot be forced to "conform" to primitive pre islamic ideas and mistaken salafi. Teach men to lower their eye in respect for a woman's beauty. If you don't understand Islam you have no bloody reason to be telling others what is and is not required by the faith.

Quite funny how you as a non-muslim have the hubris to lecture muslims on how to practice their own religion.

In fact, your self righteous, "I know what's best for you" behavior is indicative of why the west has problems in the middle east. .....

We're talking about Middle Easterners in Western countries, not the other way around. And the only "problem" the West has is the suicidal policy of letting sandniggrs in to begin with.

The west or the muslim world cannot be forced to "conform" to primitive pre islamic ideas and mistaken salafi. Teach men to lower their eye in respect for a woman's beauty. If you don't understand Islam you have no bloody reason to be telling others what is and is not required by the faith.

Quite funny how you as a non-muslim have the hubris to lecture muslims on how to practice their own religion.

In fact, your self righteous, "I know what's best for you" behavior is indicative of why the west has problems in the middle east. .....

We're talking about Middle Easterners in Western countries, not the other way around. And the only "problem" the West has is the suicidal policy of letting sandniggrs in to begin with.

They aren't sandniggers. They're Americans. Like you.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

The west or the muslim world cannot be forced to "conform" to primitive pre islamic ideas and mistaken salafi. Teach men to lower their eye in respect for a woman's beauty. If you don't understand Islam you have no bloody reason to be telling others what is and is not required by the faith.

Quite funny how you as a non-muslim have the hubris to lecture muslims on how to practice their own religion.

In fact, your self righteous, "I know what's best for you" behavior is indicative of why the west has problems in the middle east. .....

We're talking about Middle Easterners in Western countries, not the other way around. And the only "problem" the West has is the suicidal policy of letting sandniggrs in to begin with.

The west or the muslim world cannot be forced to "conform" to primitive pre islamic ideas and mistaken salafi. Teach men to lower their eye in respect for a woman's beauty. If you don't understand Islam you have no bloody reason to be telling others what is and is not required by the faith.

Quite funny how you as a non-muslim have the hubris to lecture muslims on how to practice their own religion.

In fact, your self righteous, "I know what's best for you" behavior is indicative of why the west has problems in the middle east. .....

We're talking about Middle Easterners in Western countries, not the other way around. And the only "problem" the West has is the suicidal policy of letting sandniggrs in to begin with.

They aren't sandniggers. They're Americans. Like you.

No they're not. We have the discretion of who we let into this country, and we don't have to let in people from violent countries who bring their violent ideologies with them and their children become self radicalized. They are NOT Americans and don't have a "constitutional right" to come here. We can deny them based on religion alone and should.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

The west or the muslim world cannot be forced to "conform" to primitive pre islamic ideas and mistaken salafi. Teach men to lower their eye in respect for a woman's beauty. If you don't understand Islam you have no bloody reason to be telling others what is and is not required by the faith.

Quite funny how you as a non-muslim have the hubris to lecture muslims on how to practice their own religion.

In fact, your self righteous, "I know what's best for you" behavior is indicative of why the west has problems in the middle east. .....

No, we're just suggesting that those who want to immigrate to countries where Islam isn't dominant shouldn't expect the same culture as the countries they left. If you camel lovers want to practice your religion in an environment that doesn't present friction to it, stay in your own camel shit countries.

That applies to anyone immigrating anywhere you know. Not just Muslims.

Yes it does. There was a time we understood that.

 

[Tilly]

The garment is specific to a religion. If they banned kippahs a Muslim man couldn't wear one either but it's an item worn mainly by Jews, and it's a choice...

I have not read the whole thread (yet), but early on I said BAN it. I want to say very clearly PaintMyHouseYellow is showing good to great arguments against my first instinct. Maybe I am wrong? PaintMyHouseYellow has shown plenty of "costumes" that could be considered same thing.

I am going to re-consider. Keep packing those AK-47 underneath whilst' I ponder.

Well, I already posted to this thread that I definitely think it should be a choice. If a woman feels comfortable wearing a burka or something else because that is how she was raised and she feels uncomfortable being any other way, then she should be able to wear it. It is wrong to force someone to wear one, but I think it is also wrong to ban them from wearing it except in certain situations of course.

I agree...once we start banning certain types of clothing...where do we stop? I totally agree with banning it in certain contexts - certain professions where it's a hinderance to doing a job or a safety hazard. But if someone wants to walk down the street wearing a burka...it's their choice in a free country just as it's their choice, as a Muslim woman in a free country not to wear it.

We stop at face masks. That's all we've all been saying afaik.