Sympathy for the Devil?

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Wrong.
Tell you what: the next time we face a terrorist attack I nominate you to die for the moral high ground.

Those who died as a result of terrorist attacks HAVE died holding a moral high ground.

It is amazing to see rock ribbed Conservatives using moral relativism and a total lack of ethics right out in the open! Usually those qualities are masked and obfuscated. But not when it comes to torture! Nope! the Conservatives show their true colors, and those colors are absolutely not American colors in the least.

What moral high ground did the victims at the Towers occupy? They were innocent people who unfortunately happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. There was nothing moral about their deaths,
There is no moral relativsm here. There is an issue of dealing with a very determined fanatical enemy and trying to foil his plans.

Torture means we're adopting the morals of our enemies. And that means we are surrendering the moral high ground. We have fought other foes, just as ruthless as Al Qeida. But we did not adopt their morality as a paradigm for defeating them. Only people with ambiguous morals in the first place could support abandoning our own morality for that of the enemy. Therefore, those who argue that Al Qeida is immoral therefore we must be immoral too are, in fact, practicing moral relativism.

You seem to be having trouble with this.
Let's start simply: how do you define torture?

Using physical pain as a means of interrogation. Cruel and unusual punishment. Pretty clear cut.

They don't use pain they use mental anguish. That's legal.

 

[rightwinger]

Those who died as a result of terrorist attacks HAVE died holding a moral high ground.

It is amazing to see rock ribbed Conservatives using moral relativism and a total lack of ethics right out in the open! Usually those qualities are masked and obfuscated. But not when it comes to torture! Nope! the Conservatives show their true colors, and those colors are absolutely not American colors in the least.

What moral high ground did the victims at the Towers occupy? They were innocent people who unfortunately happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. There was nothing moral about their deaths,
There is no moral relativsm here. There is an issue of dealing with a very determined fanatical enemy and trying to foil his plans.

Torture means we're adopting the morals of our enemies. And that means we are surrendering the moral high ground. We have fought other foes, just as ruthless as Al Qeida. But we did not adopt their morality as a paradigm for defeating them. Only people with ambiguous morals in the first place could support abandoning our own morality for that of the enemy. Therefore, those who argue that Al Qeida is immoral therefore we must be immoral too are, in fact, practicing moral relativism.

You seem to be having trouble with this.
Let's start simply: how do you define torture?

Using physical pain as a means of interrogation. Cruel and unusual punishment. Pretty clear cut.

They don't use pain they use mental anguish. That's legal.

Actually, it isn't

Forcing a prisoner to play russian roulette or threatening immediate death is still acknowleged as torture

 

[The Rabbi]

What moral high ground did the victims at the Towers occupy? They were innocent people who unfortunately happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. There was nothing moral about their deaths,
There is no moral relativsm here. There is an issue of dealing with a very determined fanatical enemy and trying to foil his plans.

Torture means we're adopting the morals of our enemies. And that means we are surrendering the moral high ground. We have fought other foes, just as ruthless as Al Qeida. But we did not adopt their morality as a paradigm for defeating them. Only people with ambiguous morals in the first place could support abandoning our own morality for that of the enemy. Therefore, those who argue that Al Qeida is immoral therefore we must be immoral too are, in fact, practicing moral relativism.

You seem to be having trouble with this.
Let's start simply: how do you define torture?

Using physical pain as a means of interrogation. Cruel and unusual punishment. Pretty clear cut.

They don't use pain they use mental anguish. That's legal.

Actually, it isn't

Forcing a prisoner to play russian roulette or threatening immediate death is still acknowleged as torture

By whom? Under what circumstances?

 

[boilermaker55]

Get it right just once. No one is giving sympathy to anyone. Its about who has higher standards.
Obviously you have no standards other than slip into the gutter with the rest of the snipes.
TY!

So the Dems, trying to deflect from Obama's unmitigated record of failure and disaster, are once again beating the dead horse of Bush-era interrogations. You'd think 6 years of this crap would be enough.
Does anyone else here just find themselves unable to garner sympathy for the likes of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his pals in the face of such horrors as being fed Ensure? Compare what we did to what they would have done to Americans given half the chance and I just fail to be outraged.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Get it right just once. No one is giving sympathy to anyone. Its about who has higher standards.
Obviously you have no standards other than slip into the gutter with the rest of the snipes.
TY!

So the Dems, trying to deflect from Obama's unmitigated record of failure and disaster, are once again beating the dead horse of Bush-era interrogations. You'd think 6 years of this crap would be enough.
Does anyone else here just find themselves unable to garner sympathy for the likes of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his pals in the face of such horrors as being fed Ensure? Compare what we did to what they would have done to Americans given half the chance and I just fail to be outraged.

So you're arguing that a nation that murders 1.3 million babies a year can establish a moral high ground?

 

[rightwinger]

Torture means we're adopting the morals of our enemies. And that means we are surrendering the moral high ground. We have fought other foes, just as ruthless as Al Qeida. But we did not adopt their morality as a paradigm for defeating them. Only people with ambiguous morals in the first place could support abandoning our own morality for that of the enemy. Therefore, those who argue that Al Qeida is immoral therefore we must be immoral too are, in fact, practicing moral relativism.

You seem to be having trouble with this.
Let's start simply: how do you define torture?

Using physical pain as a means of interrogation. Cruel and unusual punishment. Pretty clear cut.

They don't use pain they use mental anguish. That's legal.

Actually, it isn't

Forcing a prisoner to play russian roulette or threatening immediate death is still acknowleged as torture

By whom? Under what circumstances?

Geneva Convention
UN Convention against torture

 

[g5000]

For the purposes of this Convention, torture shall be understood to be any act intentionally performed whereby physical or mental pain or suffering is inflicted on a person for purposes of criminal investigation, as a means of intimidation, as personal punishment, as a preventive measure, as a penalty, or for any other purpose. Torture shall also be understood to be the use of methods upon a person intended to obliterate the personality of the victim or to diminish his physical or mental capacities, even if they do not cause physical pain or mental anguish.

INTER-AMERICAN CONVENTION TO PREVENT AND PUNISH TORTURE

 

[g5000]

What are the definitions of 'torture', 'inhuman' and 'degrading' for the purposes of the ECHR?
The ECHR itself gives no definitions: any difference, which lies in the severity of the treatment or punishment, does not matter very much as all three are banned.

However:

• Torture is deliberate inhuman treatment causing very serious and cruel suffering.
• Inhuman treatment or punishment causes intense physical and mental suffering.
• Degrading treatment/punishment, arouses in the victim a feeling of fear, anguish and inferiority capable of humiliating and debasing the victim and possibly breaking his or her physical or moral resistance.1

Article 3 Human rights toolkit Justice

 

[g5000]

I find it truly bizarre anyone has to have it explained to them that beating and waterboarding a prisoner is torture. This betrays a form of willful delusion and denial which is sickening to behold.

 

[BlindBoo]

Get it right just once. No one is giving sympathy to anyone. Its about who has higher standards.
Obviously you have no standards other than slip into the gutter with the rest of the snipes.
TY!

So the Dems, trying to deflect from Obama's unmitigated record of failure and disaster, are once again beating the dead horse of Bush-era interrogations. You'd think 6 years of this crap would be enough.
Does anyone else here just find themselves unable to garner sympathy for the likes of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his pals in the face of such horrors as being fed Ensure? Compare what we did to what they would have done to Americans given half the chance and I just fail to be outraged.

So you're arguing that a nation that murders 1.3 million babies a year can establish a moral high ground?

Abortion is not murder and a fetus is not a baby.

 

[g5000]

If American prisoners were beaten and waterboarded, the idiots on this forum who don't think that is torture would quickly see the light.

But then they have a backup response to that. It is what I call the "Two Wrongs Make A Right Wing Nazi" gambit. The moral slippery slope that says it is okay to torture prisoners as long as we don't torture or mutilate them in quite the same fashion as the other guys do.


Sheer insanity we are seeing here. Sheer insanity.

 

[rightwinger]

If American prisoners were beaten and waterboarded, the idiots on this forum who don't think that is torture would quickly see the light.

But then they have a backup response to that. It is what I call the "Two Wrongs Make A Right Wing Nazi" gambit. The moral slippery slope that says it is okay to torture prisoners as long as we don't torture or mutilate them in quite the same fashion as the other guys do.


Sheer insanity we are seeing here. Sheer insanity.

Justification of torture usually comes down to:

1. It is not torture when WE do it
2. They deserve to be tortured
3. We are only doing it to save lives

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

If American prisoners were beaten and waterboarded, the idiots on this forum who don't think that is torture would quickly see the light.

But then they have a backup response to that. It is what I call the "Two Wrongs Make A Right Wing Nazi" gambit. The moral slippery slope that says it is okay to torture prisoners as long as we don't torture or mutilate them in quite the same fashion as the other guys do.


Sheer insanity we are seeing here. Sheer insanity.

Since when are we beating the terrorists you weep over? I didn't quite see that in the report.

 

[Claudette]

Terrorists behead prisoners after they really do torture them. No waterboarding just real torture.

When captured by us they are treated with kid gloves. Those at Gitmo have more than they have ever had in their lives. Yep. Torture was done to all three of em. LMAO

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Get it right just once. No one is giving sympathy to anyone. Its about who has higher standards.
Obviously you have no standards other than slip into the gutter with the rest of the snipes.
TY!

So the Dems, trying to deflect from Obama's unmitigated record of failure and disaster, are once again beating the dead horse of Bush-era interrogations. You'd think 6 years of this crap would be enough.
Does anyone else here just find themselves unable to garner sympathy for the likes of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his pals in the face of such horrors as being fed Ensure? Compare what we did to what they would have done to Americans given half the chance and I just fail to be outraged.

So you're arguing that a nation that murders 1.3 million babies a year can establish a moral high ground?

Abortion is not murder and a fetus is not a baby.

Not according to Islam. Evil religion yes, but they didn't murder 50 million babies.

 

[g5000]

Terrorists behead prisoners after they really do torture them. No waterboarding just real torture.

When captured by us they are treated with kid gloves. Those at Gitmo have more than they have ever had in their lives. Yep. Torture was done to all three of em. LMAO

See? There it is.

It's okay as long as we don't beat or torture them in quite the same fashion as the other guys. Two Wrongs Make A Right Wing Nazi.

 

[g5000]

If American prisoners were beaten and waterboarded, the idiots on this forum who don't think that is torture would quickly see the light.

But then they have a backup response to that. It is what I call the "Two Wrongs Make A Right Wing Nazi" gambit. The moral slippery slope that says it is okay to torture prisoners as long as we don't torture or mutilate them in quite the same fashion as the other guys do.


Sheer insanity we are seeing here. Sheer insanity.

Since when are we beating the terrorists you weep over? I didn't quite see that in the report.

That's because you didn't read the report. This is what I call "willful blindness." You didn't see it because you are making sure you don't.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

If American prisoners were beaten and waterboarded, the idiots on this forum who don't think that is torture would quickly see the light.

But then they have a backup response to that. It is what I call the "Two Wrongs Make A Right Wing Nazi" gambit. The moral slippery slope that says it is okay to torture prisoners as long as we don't torture or mutilate them in quite the same fashion as the other guys do.


Sheer insanity we are seeing here. Sheer insanity.

Since when are we beating the terrorists you weep over? I didn't quite see that in the report.

That's because you didn't read the report. This is what I call "willful blindness." You didn't see it because you are making sure you don't.

Oh so it is in the report. Good. Then you should have no problem citing an excerpt.

 

[The Rabbi]

If American prisoners were beaten and waterboarded, the idiots on this forum who don't think that is torture would quickly see the light.

But then they have a backup response to that. It is what I call the "Two Wrongs Make A Right Wing Nazi" gambit. The moral slippery slope that says it is okay to torture prisoners as long as we don't torture or mutilate them in quite the same fashion as the other guys do.


Sheer insanity we are seeing here. Sheer insanity.

Since when are we beating the terrorists you weep over? I didn't quite see that in the report.

That's because you didn't read the report. This is what I call "willful blindness." You didn't see it because you are making sure you don't.

Quote the relevnt section.

 

[g5000]