Teachers' Union To Sue Private Schools Over Voucher Program...

[OohPooPahDoo]

There's a mountain of evidence, you fucking dimwit. Private schools consistently outperform government schools.

they should.

Private schools have fewer regulations and better material to work with.

Not true. Even when you control for the quality of the students, private schools do a better job. Those regulations are part the reason government schools suck. When you have government schools, you have regulations. That's never going to change. That's just one more reason to support vouchers.

I'd like a link to that study as well. I'm curious as to how they control for the quality of students.

 

[JoeB131]

you are full of shit...unions have fought merit pay every time, read and quit being sheep....anthey have blocked other ideas . Where is the link on obama? Also, where are the hypocrats and unions on vouchers?

I think that when you can't follow the basic rules of English, you really shouldn't be spouting off on education threads. Just saying.

As I stated earlier, saying we need vouchers to improve schools is a fallacy. Private schools are better because parents are more involved. Involved enough to pay a lot of money for tuition they could spend on other things.

To give a marginally involved parent a voucher and saying, "GO to whatever school will take your kid" and expecting any different result is foolish. You are just moving the problem, not resolving it.

I went to Catholic Schools, back in the good old days when they still had nuns and brothers as teachers when they tried to convice themselves they weren't gay, which 90% of them were. You know what, they weren't any better trained or educated. The only advantage they had was discipline. They could throw you out if you were too much trouble to teach.

You think they'll be able to do that with Voucher Kids?

Do I think there are some awful teachers the unions protect? Hell, yeah. And they shouldn't.

But there were awful teachers that the private schools had. We had an English Teacher in my Junior year, got fired from a neighboring school because he hit a kid and they sued the Church. When he was told he was unable to use any corporal punishment (unlike the other teachers), he had no way to keep order in his classroom.

Had another Christian Brother who was clearly senile, had no idea what was going on in his class.

 

[JoeB131]

"their way" encompasses so much more than that one single issue. We are a free Society, we should be open to new ideas and changes.

Name one, specific idea that a private school could do that a public school could not.

Where's the completion? Where's the accountability for the failure? Schools could be run by private companies and do a much better job. Private companies run them and they can be overseen by local elected entities.

Private companies would do what's profitable, not necessarily what's right.

So again, what is the profit going to be to teach the Special Ed Students? Or taking the chronic displinary problems?

 

[buckeye45_73]

Isn't that only if they pay taxes?

As a public school teacher, I am not crazy about vouchers and charter schools because they don't have to play by the same rules as the local public schools. But I also believe that children in high crime areas deserve better. If a voucher will give them the opportunity to go to a safer school, I can't see how any compassionate person could say that's a bad thing.

Until states get serious about getting criminals out of these classrooms, parents should have a choice.

I don't consider tax dollars paying to sit students in front of TV's all day "better". Our public school system used to not be shitty and it isn't because we had private school vouchers back then.

its because unions control schools, teachers cant be fired and we have liberal values in them, like teaching global warming and mccarthy instead of real subjects

 

[squeeze berry]

As a public school teacher, I am not crazy about vouchers and charter schools because they don't have to play by the same rules as the local public schools. But I also believe that children in high crime areas deserve better. If a voucher will give them the opportunity to go to a safer school, I can't see how any compassionate person could say that's a bad thing.

Until states get serious about getting criminals out of these classrooms, parents should have a choice.

"They don't have to play by the same rules" is an argument in favor of vouchers, because those rules are part of what's wrong with the public schools. The reason you disagree is because you see that unfair to yourself, a public school teacher.

Liberal teachers Unions are a big reason why we can't get the criminals out of these classrooms. Add to that Obama pressuring schools not to punish Afro students, which is an effort to make a bad situation worse.

no Ariux, it's not the unions blocking removing criminals and disruptive students from the classroom. It's the laws we live with.

Years ago students could be thrown out of school. Now, we still must educate them no matter what. Many times they are sent to a "reform school", Sometimes they are taught by teachers in the juvenile detention center. Most of the time they stay in the classroom and disrupt the educational process for everyone.

Why is this?

Thank your politicians that pass the laws that handcuff the rest of us.

 

[DontBeStupid]

Isn't that only if they pay taxes?

As a public school teacher, I am not crazy about vouchers and charter schools because they don't have to play by the same rules as the local public schools. But I also believe that children in high crime areas deserve better. If a voucher will give them the opportunity to go to a safer school, I can't see how any compassionate person could say that's a bad thing.

Until states get serious about getting criminals out of these classrooms, parents should have a choice.

I don't consider tax dollars paying to sit students in front of TV's all day "better". Our public school system used to not be shitty and it isn't because we had private school vouchers back then.

its because unions control schools, teachers cant be fired and we have liberal values in them, like teaching global warming and mccarthy instead of real subjects

And there we go. That's what this is really all about.

 

[squeeze berry]

you are full of shit...unions have fought merit pay every time, read and quit being sheep....anthey have blocked other ideas . Where is the link on obama? Also, where are the hypocrats and unions on vouchers?

I think that when you can't follow the basic rules of English, you really shouldn't be spouting off on education threads. Just saying.

As I stated earlier, saying we need vouchers to improve schools is a fallacy. Private schools are better because parents are more involved. Involved enough to pay a lot of money for tuition they could spend on other things.

To give a marginally involved parent a voucher and saying, "GO to whatever school will take your kid" and expecting any different result is foolish. You are just moving the problem, not resolving it.

I went to Catholic Schools, back in the good old days when they still had nuns and brothers as teachers when they tried to convice themselves they weren't gay, which 90% of them were. You know what, they weren't any better trained or educated. The only advantage they had was discipline. They could throw you out if you were too much trouble to teach.

You think they'll be able to do that with Voucher Kids?

Do I think there are some awful teachers the unions protect? Hell, yeah. And they shouldn't.

But there were awful teachers that the private schools had. We had an English Teacher in my Junior year, got fired from a neighboring school because he hit a kid and they sued the Church. When he was told he was unable to use any corporal punishment (unlike the other teachers), he had no way to keep order in his classroom.

Had another Christian Brother who was clearly senile, had no idea what was going on in his class.

and those that can afford private school come from a higher than average socio-economic class.

Think about those implications as well

 

[Jroc]

Name one, specific idea that a private school could do that a public school could not.

Where's the completion? Where's the accountability for the failure? Schools could be run by private companies and do a much better job. Private companies run them and they can be overseen by local elected entities.

Private companies would do what's profitable, not necessarily what's right.

So again, what is the profit going to be to teach the Special Ed Students? Or taking the chronic displinary problems?

I’ve got news for you profit is good, competition good, there is so much waste and fraud going on in these public schools, there can be special schools for kids with problems run privately and if there are problems at home get the kid out of that home until the problems are resolved. There is nothing wrong with getting kids out of their neighborhood when they attend school. It would actually be a good thing

 

[DontBeStupid]

There is nothing wrong with getting kids out of their neighborhood when they attend school. It would actually be a good thing

Ok. I'll bite.

How?

 

[Ariux]

There is nothing wrong with getting kids out of their neighborhood when they attend school. It would actually be a good thing

Right. It helps Afro kids be less shitty to get them away form other Afros.

 

[Jroc]

There is nothing wrong with getting kids out of their neighborhood when they attend school. It would actually be a good thing

Ok. I'll bite.

How?

How? It gets kids away from the kids they hang out with, and allows them to focus on school. When I went to school in Detroit we’d skip out and hang out in the hood, although I graduated too many of my friends didn't even bother. Change of environment is a good thing

 

[buckeye45_73]

you are full of shit...unions have fought merit pay every time, read and quit being sheep....anthey have blocked other ideas . Where is the link on obama? Also, where are the hypocrats and unions on vouchers?

I think that when you can't follow the basic rules of English, you really shouldn't be spouting off on education threads. Just saying.

As I stated earlier, saying we need vouchers to improve schools is a fallacy. Private schools are better because parents are more involved. Involved enough to pay a lot of money for tuition they could spend on other things.

To give a marginally involved parent a voucher and saying, "GO to You whatever school will take your kid" and expecting any different result is foolish. You are just moving the problem, not resolving it.

I went to Catholic Schools, back in the good old days when they still had nuns and brothers as teachers when they tried to convice themselves they weren't gay, which 90% of them were. You know what, they weren't any better trained or educated. The only advantage they had was discipline. They could throw you out if you were too much trouble to teach.

You think they'll be able to do that with Voucher Kids?

Do I think there are some awful teachers the unions protect? Hell, yeah. And they shouldn't.

But there were awful teachers that the private schools had. We had an English Teacher in my Junior year, got fired from a neighboring school because he hit a kid and they sued the Church. When he was told he was unable to use any corporal punishment (unlike the other teachers), he had no way to keep order in his classroom.

Had another Christian Brother who was clearly senile, had no idea what was going on in his class.

as for the english, alot of times I type on a phone and with big hands it doesnt always work well. I have no clue how peopke can have conversations texting.
Now discipline is a huuuuge factor and liberals hate it, watch lean on me. I also think we waste waaay tooo much time on social crap in schools to be good people. Teach civics not crap people learn during life

 

[JoeB131]

you are full of shit...unions have fought merit pay every time, read and quit being sheep....anthey have blocked other ideas . Where is the link on obama? Also, where are the hypocrats and unions on vouchers?

I think that when you can't follow the basic rules of English, you really shouldn't be spouting off on education threads. Just saying.

As I stated earlier, saying we need vouchers to improve schools is a fallacy. Private schools are better because parents are more involved. Involved enough to pay a lot of money for tuition they could spend on other things.

To give a marginally involved parent a voucher and saying, "GO to whatever school will take your kid" and expecting any different result is foolish. You are just moving the problem, not resolving it.

I went to Catholic Schools, back in the good old days when they still had nuns and brothers as teachers when they tried to convice themselves they weren't gay, which 90% of them were. You know what, they weren't any better trained or educated. The only advantage they had was discipline. They could throw you out if you were too much trouble to teach.

You think they'll be able to do that with Voucher Kids?

Do I think there are some awful teachers the unions protect? Hell, yeah. And they shouldn't.

But there were awful teachers that the private schools had. We had an English Teacher in my Junior year, got fired from a neighboring school because he hit a kid and they sued the Church. When he was told he was unable to use any corporal punishment (unlike the other teachers), he had no way to keep order in his classroom.

Had another Christian Brother who was clearly senile, had no idea what was going on in his class.

and those that can afford private school come from a higher than average socio-economic class.

Think about those implications as well

Well, yes and no.

My dad was a union sheet metal guy who made a good dollar back when we had strong unions. He was hardly "higher than average" back in those days.

The thing is, the cost of a parochial education used to be pretty cheap. My last year of HS I paid for with my minimum wage job, and it was something like $800.00 in 1970's Jimmy Carter dollars... Today it's like $6000.00 for a year.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I hope that they do find vouchers to be unconstitutional. At that same time__ the same grounds they'll be finding public education to be unconstitutional. Give the people back their money and their lives and let them make their own decisions.

 

[squeeze berry]

Name one, specific idea that a private school could do that a public school could not.

Where's the completion? Where's the accountability for the failure? Schools could be run by private companies and do a much better job. Private companies run them and they can be overseen by local elected entities.

Private companies would do what's profitable, not necessarily what's right.

So again, what is the profit going to be to teach the Special Ed Students? Or taking the chronic displinary problems?

exactly....


special education is very expensive, That is why private schools do not accept that population. Public schools get them all.

Camnanyone name me one private school that accepts severe profound disabilities?

Extra staff is need for diaper changing, tube feeding and re-positioning throughout the day.

Ever try to change a diaper of a 250 lb. man that is fighting you every inch of the way?

What about transportation?

Do private schools have transportation services?

What about special education transportation? Each bus requires a driver AND an aid for getting the wheelchairs off the bus.

$ $ $ $

 

[JoeB131]

as for the english, alot of times I type on a phone and with big hands it doesnt always work well. I have no clue how peopke can have conversations texting.
Now discipline is a huuuuge factor and liberals hate it, watch lean on me. I also think we waste waaay tooo much time on social crap in schools to be good people. Teach civics not crap people learn during life

Lean on Me is pure fiction, you know this, right?

His Pupils Want Someone to Lean On, but Joe Clark May Simply Want Out : People.com

At that point the Joe Clark myth came up for a bit of reexamination. Local newspapers pointed out that, his heroic image on film notwithstanding, Clark had been unable to raise Eastside students' miserable test scores; that one of his aides, the disciplinarian known in the movie as "Mr. Wright," was wanted for allegedly forging a check; that teacher morale at his school was low—more than 150 of 300 faculty members had either left or been purged during his busy seven-year reign.

 

[gallantwarrior]

The problem with the voucher system basically is that it takes the more successful students out of the public schools, leaving the more unsuccessful disadvantaged students. And let's get real and describe what the disadvantaged youth have against them. They are generally coming from homes were education is not the highest of priorities in the family. The parents do not support the teachers or the school as much as the parents that opt out of the public schools system.

There in lies the problem. If the school mandates homework each night for each subject, the parents of the public school system is likely to balk or not see that their children are getting it done. Without this parental support, it is almost impossible to keep the quality of the schools up to par with the charter and private schools.

Discipline is better at the charter and private schools. Again, the parents are more supportive and demand good discipline in the charter and private schools. Parents are not supporting the discipline policies if followed through in the public schools and more and more disciplinary actions have to take place, taking up instructional time.

Public school teachers are not evaluated as often as in the charter and private schools due to tenure and the quality of teaching is affected. Once a teacher has reached tenure, it is easy to slide especially when you don't have parental support, discipline in the school is an issue and administration is not supporting you.

But it can change and it takes a good PR program to do just that. It's getting parents back on board and letting them know what is possible for their children if the school and the community work together. Every other year the teachers should be evaluated for effectiveness and unions who protect the ineffective teachers have to police their own.

If unions want to be considered part of the solution instead of the problem, they have to start workshops on the effective teacher, demanding excellence and expecting students and teachers both to perform. In turn, the parents have to expect they will be called on to support the "team."

Parents that disinterested in their children's welfare are not going to change. At least this way, the interested parents have the option of seeking more desirable educational circumstances for their children.

 

[squeeze berry]

I think that when you can't follow the basic rules of English, you really shouldn't be spouting off on education threads. Just saying.

As I stated earlier, saying we need vouchers to improve schools is a fallacy. Private schools are better because parents are more involved. Involved enough to pay a lot of money for tuition they could spend on other things.

To give a marginally involved parent a voucher and saying, "GO to whatever school will take your kid" and expecting any different result is foolish. You are just moving the problem, not resolving it.

I went to Catholic Schools, back in the good old days when they still had nuns and brothers as teachers when they tried to convice themselves they weren't gay, which 90% of them were. You know what, they weren't any better trained or educated. The only advantage they had was discipline. They could throw you out if you were too much trouble to teach.

You think they'll be able to do that with Voucher Kids?

Do I think there are some awful teachers the unions protect? Hell, yeah. And they shouldn't.

But there were awful teachers that the private schools had. We had an English Teacher in my Junior year, got fired from a neighboring school because he hit a kid and they sued the Church. When he was told he was unable to use any corporal punishment (unlike the other teachers), he had no way to keep order in his classroom.

Had another Christian Brother who was clearly senile, had no idea what was going on in his class.

and those that can afford private school come from a higher than average socio-economic class.

Think about those implications as well

Well, yes and no.

My dad was a union sheet metal guy who made a good dollar back when we had strong unions. He was hardly "higher than average" back in those days.

The thing is, the cost of a parochial education used to be pretty cheap. My last year of HS I paid for with my minimum wage job, and it was something like $800.00 in 1970's Jimmy Carter dollars... Today it's like $6000.00 for a year.

I guess I'll need to be more blunt and to the point.

Private schools will likely have families and students with higher than average IQs, work ethic and wealth.

I'm talking AVERAGE.

I'm not saying that there are no bright, ambitious and wealthy families in pubic school. What I am saying is that public schools are required to take ALL students regardless of SES or ability.

Do private schools accept students that come from south of the border with little or no schooling in their life?

Do private schools have special education services, ELL, or intensive behavior support programs?

 

[gallantwarrior]

See what I mean?

I posted a letter which clearly explains the position of the Teachers, and Pauli comes on and asks about the position of the Teachers.

He just doesn't care to read or research.

They shouldn't be threatening their fellow Citizens. Education can be successful by employing various different means. It's not just a one-way street. These Public Unions should be ashamed of themselves. It's not 'their way or the highway' anymore. The times they are a changin.

Pauli apparently supports the unconstitutional use of taxpayer funds.

Duly noted.

How is allocating funds for a voucher system unconstitutional? Honest question, I'm curious.

 

[DontBeStupid]

There is nothing wrong with getting kids out of their neighborhood when they attend school. It would actually be a good thing

Ok. I'll bite.

How?

How? It gets kids away from the kids they hang out with, and allows them to focus on school. When I went to school in Detroit we’d skip out and hang out in the hood, although I graduated too many of my friends didn't even bother. Change of environment is a good thing

No. How do you physically and practically get the kids out of those schools and to a different school?