Teacher's view on public education system's problems

[Samson]

I wonder why 'Ditsy' there is so threatened by someone who actually teaches discussing the state of education today?

I wonder why anyone would bother to defend themselves so vehemently....

 

[Unkotare]

I wonder why 'Ditsy' there is so threatened by someone who actually teaches discussing the state of education today?

I wonder why anyone would bother to defend themselves so vehemently....

What's Ditsy even trying to defend himself from?

 

[Samson]

I wonder why 'Ditsy' there is so threatened by someone who actually teaches discussing the state of education today?

I wonder why anyone would bother to defend themselves so vehemently....

What's Ditsy even trying to defend himself from?

Not who I meant.

 

[jasonnfree]

I don't have to find an exact quote. It's insinuated in the first line of the OP. These are offered as credentials.
I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):

I stated that I run my own business to provide a little background. If you ASSUMED that I was suggesting that public education should be run like a business then you're incorrect. And we both know what assuming makes of you.

It's indicated here:


It's indicated here:


It's indicated here:

Once again you're not grasping the difference between "understanding" and "agreeing with". For example one can understand the arguments for the death penalty...but still not agree with its practice. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, if you're honestly having trouble to do so I suggest that you step back and think about it for a moment.



So you're suggesting that high school kids are studying or actual care about how corporate America operates? Have you been in a classroom since you were in high school? They're much more concerned with what party they're going to over the weekend, or about their significant other drama.

Also cutting corners tends NOT to work in the real world. It catches up with you. People who claim that others get ahead merely by "cutting corners" are using lazy way to explain the success of others, opposed for your own failure.

And that union that is so despised? They are the ones fighting for you to have more control over the classroom. They are also the ones that are going to insist that you should be fairly investigated should a student fail or not have acquired the A and then make false accusations of sexual misconduct. If you are a male, it isn't a question of if that happens but when. Gee, again with libaility.

Actually in my county female teachers are accused of sexual misconduct at a much higher rate than male teachers are. The headlines just aren't as negative, and it doesn't generate as much media attention. I can't speak about where you live, but where I live this is 100% the case.

They unions are also the ones who protect bad teachers, bad policies. Personally I want teachers to be paid based on performance. Like I said in my county we have bonuses if teachers achieve specific goals. Why should two teachers be compensated the same amount if they're doing two very different jobs? Where's the incentive for crappy teachers to do better?

Too, those disabilities that will not be allowed in the "real world"? They are currently learning how to work with those disabilities via the schools so that those assholes won't be able to tell the difference. I'm not down with inclusion.

Many of these disabilities you cannot simply "hide" from the real world. They're very real disabilities, but instead of trying to pull the wool over society's eyes....why not help the child be able to function in society under society's rules? It's a crappy thing I agree. But if you honestly think that society will EVER adapt to the students with disabilities....then you're being very naive.

What I would have against a teacher being paid for performance is that there are too many things beyond the teacher's control. To name just one thing: some kids, especially boys, don't want to be in school at all and will invent all kinds of ways to keep from being bored, including harassing the teachers. It was my experience as a student in the 50's, its probably the same or worse today. How can a teacher be blamed if a student doesn't want to learn or even be in school? Anyway, good luck with your new profession, I hope you can make a difference.

 

[Disir]

I don't have to find an exact quote. It's insinuated in the first line of the OP. These are offered as credentials.
I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):

I stated that I run my own business to provide a little background. If you ASSUMED that I was suggesting that public education should be run like a business then you're incorrect. And we both know what assuming makes of you.

It's indicated here:


It's indicated here:


It's indicated here:

Once again you're not grasping the difference between "understanding" and "agreeing with". For example one can understand the arguments for the death penalty...but still not agree with its practice. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, if you're honestly having trouble to do so I suggest that you step back and think about it for a moment.



So you're suggesting that high school kids are studying or actual care about how corporate America operates? Have you been in a classroom since you were in high school? They're much more concerned with what party they're going to over the weekend, or about their significant other drama.

Also cutting corners tends NOT to work in the real world. It catches up with you. People who claim that others get ahead merely by "cutting corners" are using lazy way to explain the success of others, opposed for your own failure.

And that union that is so despised? They are the ones fighting for you to have more control over the classroom. They are also the ones that are going to insist that you should be fairly investigated should a student fail or not have acquired the A and then make false accusations of sexual misconduct. If you are a male, it isn't a question of if that happens but when. Gee, again with libaility.

Actually in my county female teachers are accused of sexual misconduct at a much higher rate than male teachers are. The headlines just aren't as negative, and it doesn't generate as much media attention. I can't speak about where you live, but where I live this is 100% the case.

They unions are also the ones who protect bad teachers, bad policies. Personally I want teachers to be paid based on performance. Like I said in my county we have bonuses if teachers achieve specific goals. Why should two teachers be compensated the same amount if they're doing two very different jobs? Where's the incentive for crappy teachers to do better?

Too, those disabilities that will not be allowed in the "real world"? They are currently learning how to work with those disabilities via the schools so that those assholes won't be able to tell the difference. I'm not down with inclusion.

Many of these disabilities you cannot simply "hide" from the real world. They're very real disabilities, but instead of trying to pull the wool over society's eyes....why not help the child be able to function in society under society's rules? It's a crappy thing I agree. But if you honestly think that society will EVER adapt to the students with disabilities....then you're being very naive.

You're dancing. Badly. That information is inferred from your posts. Had you meant something else, you would have stated so. But, you didn't.

It doesn't matter if in your county there are more accusations of sexual misconduct with women or men. Statistic-wise men are more often accused. Again. Liability. Title IX and monetary damages. Again. Textbook. This is also about due process. Unions insist on it. No one wants a crappy teacher. Unions don't want it either. So, why don't you show me the specific policies that you feel are holding it up. You shouldn't have any problem with that. I got five that says what your angst is related to is due process.

What's to complain about disabilities in the real world? That is the real world. I'm just not in the habit of letting someone feel like they are less than the asshat they are when they pretend it isn't the real world. It might be unpleasant to think about. When you are dealing with a mild learning disability (dyslexia), they are going to give you the expected result but they are learning different strategies that they have to utilize. Thus, society doesn't have to do a damn thing. It's on the individual. They are adapting to society. Speed is the hold up. Measure twice and cut once. That's textbook. That's not about PC. No courses on special education learning disabilities either?

There are kids that are intellectually disabled and (at best) they will work in low wage jobs. They aren't going to wear their IQ on their forehead. Society can still walk around and talk about those welfare recipients are just not working hard enough. See? People aren't prevented from being asshats at all. They can still carry on oblivious to the world around them.

There are others that will never, ever, ever function in society. Most of those have a lot of experience dealing with the real world because they encounter bullying on a regular basis. They don't belong in a mainstream classroom. That boils down to the district and the money that they don't want to spend. Every now and again you can find a bat-eyes-idealist that firmly believes inclusion has phenomenal results. Most do not. Most of these kids are not going to be able to participate in the activities and it boils down to exclusion. That's textbook.

Again. Unless you make enough cash to isolate yourself from the rest of society or run multiple IDs on a forum from a couple of computers, this is the real world. Most people are going into careers or professions that encounter other people. The real world doesn't give a darn if you don't like other people or they don't meet your expectations. No diversity coursework either?

I'm not suggesting that students would speak the lingo of the corporate world. Students don't live in a vacuum. They interpret the world around them based on their life experiences. But, cutting corners can be found in simple actions or non actions in something like.....slumlords or mechanics or drug dealers or watching their parents work in or deal with corporations. It's called a world view and it really is all about them. No psychology of learning either?

 

[Unkotare]

I wonder why anyone would bother to defend themselves so vehemently....

What's Ditsy even trying to defend himself from?

Not who I meant.

It should be.

 

[Samson]

What's Ditsy even trying to defend himself from?

Not who I meant.

It should be.

That would be hypocritical.

I seached for phrases in the OP to see if they showed up anywhere else on the www.

 

[Disir]

What's Ditsy even trying to defend himself from?

Not who I meant.

It should be.

Ok, sweetie. You wanted my attention. You have about five minutes. Go........

 

[Unkotare]

Not who I meant.

It should be.

Ok, sweetie. You wanted my attention. You have about five minutes. Go........

You quoted the question, genius. Answer it.

 

[Disir]

It should be.

Ok, sweetie. You wanted my attention. You have about five minutes. Go........

You quoted the question, genius. Answer it.

Listen asshat- I don't like people who lie for politics. So, get an argument together or STFU and sit down.

 

[Unkotare]

You have about five minutes. Go........

You quoted the question, genius. Answer it.

I don't like people who lie for politics. .

Ok, who has lied? The only thing you have proven here is that you are defensive and insecure for some reason.

 

[Disir]

You quoted the question, genius. Answer it.

I don't like people who lie for politics. .

Ok, who has lied? The only thing you have proven here is that you are defensive and insecure for some reason.

I'm actually pretty damn confident. I'm not in the habit of jumping into battles because they exist. That isn't what my track record demonstrates.

Now, if you want to play catch up then go back and reread what I wrote.

 

[hadit]

It's a societal issue:

1. Teachers unions are out to benefit the teachers, regardless of impact on the students.
2. Students are not motivated to learn. Why should they? They are taught the world owes them a living.
3. Parents are not involved in their kids' educations. They are not motivated to see their children succeed. There are many reasons for this, from broken homes to drug addictions and back.

Three legs to a stool, and all three contribute to the problem. Teachers blame the kids, kids blame the parents, and parents blame the teachers, but in the end, society as a whole is to blame. At one time, the immigrants who built this country insisted their children get educated so they could have a better life than the first ones off the boat. Now, not so much. At one time, a kid didn't have much of anything to call his/her own, especially not high-cost toys and clothes. What they had, they earned by doing extra chores or taking on a part time job when they were old enough. Now, not so much. At one time, kids were expected to grow up quickly, to become contributors to society. Now, not so much. Watch what happens when kids are home schooled. Some would love to make "home schooled" an insult or a punchline, but they can't, because usually home schooled kids run rings around government schooled kids. The difference is, they have engaged parents and motivation to learn.

The bottom line remains, we can't throw enough money at the problem, because the root of the problem is not money related. The rot lies in the heart and soul of society. PC fads don't work. Fancy campuses don't work.

Yes, which makes the declaration that "It's a Societal Issue" all the more ridiculously pendantic.

Sociological Bleating....fuck....EVERYTHING is a "Societal Issue:" Humans are imperfect. Most governments recognize this, and augment their systems to accomodate for it.

Not the USA, where NO CHILD IS LEFT BEHIND!!!
If we could agree that there is a certain volume of stupid that will always reside as an integral portion of our citizenry, then we could expend far fewer resources accomodating them, and far more resources on the portion that will contribute.

Note that I did not prescribe a solution, merely noted that the blame can be plausibly spread anywhere and everywhere. Note as well that those same imperfect humans managed to create a pretty excellent school system that was the envy of the world 50 odd years ago. Of course, the best way to address the educational system is to acknowledge that not every child is going to succeed under this educational model. They just aren't. If they display the aptitude and drive to successfully master higher education, they should have every door open to them. If they do not, there needs to be other avenues available to them. It's really as simple as that. We have to stop pretending that every child from every background will be equally successful if we just pump enough zombie drugs into them to get them to sit still for an hour.

 

[Unkotare]

I don't like people who lie for politics. .

Ok, who has lied? The only thing you have proven here is that you are defensive and insecure for some reason.

I'm actually pretty damn confident.

Your reaction to the OP sure doesn't make it seem that way.

 

[Disir]

Then you aren't paying attention.

 

[Unkotare]

I have been paying attention. That's why I asked.

 

[Samson]

It's a societal issue:

1. Teachers unions are out to benefit the teachers, regardless of impact on the students.
2. Students are not motivated to learn. Why should they? They are taught the world owes them a living.
3. Parents are not involved in their kids' educations. They are not motivated to see their children succeed. There are many reasons for this, from broken homes to drug addictions and back.

Three legs to a stool, and all three contribute to the problem. Teachers blame the kids, kids blame the parents, and parents blame the teachers, but in the end, society as a whole is to blame. At one time, the immigrants who built this country insisted their children get educated so they could have a better life than the first ones off the boat. Now, not so much. At one time, a kid didn't have much of anything to call his/her own, especially not high-cost toys and clothes. What they had, they earned by doing extra chores or taking on a part time job when they were old enough. Now, not so much. At one time, kids were expected to grow up quickly, to become contributors to society. Now, not so much. Watch what happens when kids are home schooled. Some would love to make "home schooled" an insult or a punchline, but they can't, because usually home schooled kids run rings around government schooled kids. The difference is, they have engaged parents and motivation to learn.

The bottom line remains, we can't throw enough money at the problem, because the root of the problem is not money related. The rot lies in the heart and soul of society. PC fads don't work. Fancy campuses don't work.

Yes, which makes the declaration that "It's a Societal Issue" all the more ridiculously pendantic.

Sociological Bleating....fuck....EVERYTHING is a "Societal Issue:" Humans are imperfect. Most governments recognize this, and augment their systems to accomodate for it.

Not the USA, where NO CHILD IS LEFT BEHIND!!!
If we could agree that there is a certain volume of stupid that will always reside as an integral portion of our citizenry, then we could expend far fewer resources accomodating them, and far more resources on the portion that will contribute.

Note that I did not prescribe a solution, merely noted that the blame can be plausibly spread anywhere and everywhere. Note as well that those same imperfect humans managed to create a pretty excellent school system that was the envy of the world 50 odd years ago. Of course, the best way to address the educational system is to acknowledge that not every child is going to succeed under this educational model. They just aren't. If they display the aptitude and drive to successfully master higher education, they should have every door open to them. If they do not, there needs to be other avenues available to them. It's really as simple as that. We have to stop pretending that every child from every background will be equally successful if we just pump enough zombie drugs into them to get them to sit still for an hour.

Agreed.

But here's where the next issue arises:

It's pretty easy to administer an educational model to successful students....

But what do we do with unsuccessful students: I.E. once we separate the goats from sheep, now what to do with the goats?

The USA prides itself on socio-economic mobility. Asking the government to separate out the goats is difficult enough, but asking government to then fabricate goat-tasks for this population is much harder. Going out on the Free Market as a Goat is not particularly the best builder of self-esteem.....what if most goats are one color, and sheep another? Or mostly one gender, or religion? We cannot accept these "inequalities."

Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Indians, and practically every other nation on the planet readily accept inequality, and this is the primary reason their school systems are often ranked higher.

 

[JT8691]

Ok, sweetie. You wanted my attention. You have about five minutes. Go........

You quoted the question, genius. Answer it.

Listen asshat- I don't like people who lie for politics. So, get an argument together or STFU and sit down.

So let me get this straight you think that I would actually take the time to make up an entire story for a small forum on the Internet to discuss a topic with a total of 4-5 strangers that I'll never meet in person....just for the sake of "politics"? Really? I think one of the following:

-You have no life so to you it makes sense that somebody would actually do the above.
-You're very paranoid
-You're resorting to a lazy argument and are going after the poster(s) instead of the actual content

I assure you that I have better things to do than to start this thread based on a "lie", AND I certainly have much more better things to do than to "prove" myself to a complete stranger on an online forum.

Believe me or not--I really don't care.

 

[Disir]

You quoted the question, genius. Answer it.

Listen asshat- I don't like people who lie for politics. So, get an argument together or STFU and sit down.

So let me get this straight you think that I would actually take the time to make up an entire story for a small forum on the Internet to discuss a topic with a total of 4-5 strangers that I'll never meet in person....just for the sake of "politics"? Really? I think one of the following:

-You have no life so to you it makes sense that somebody would actually do the above.
-You're very paranoid
-You're resorting to a lazy argument and are going after the poster(s) instead of the actual content

I assure you that I have better things to do than to start this thread based on a "lie", AND I certainly have much more better things to do than to "prove" myself to a complete stranger on an online forum.

Believe me or not--I really don't care.

I don't. Nothing that you have said in the last seven pages indicates that you have had any courses in education or comprehend the challenges in education.

 

[Darkwind]

I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):

-Parents lack of interest/involvement with students. I had roughly 150 students and on teacher conference night where parents come in and meet with their teachers I had a total of THREE parents come in. THREE. (I teach a requirement for graduation btw).

-When I call home to parents about students misbehaving or not doing their work most (not all) of the parents don't care, they say it's my job and problem to deal with. So when I address it with the students their response is that their parents don't care, so they don't care.

-Points for trying. This drives me CRAZY. We're encouraged to give students points for simply trying! I have students asking me why they have C's or D's-and they point out that they do all of their work. I tell them that if they give me "C work", they're going to get a "C". MANY students complain at this and expect an "A" just for doing all of their work. The (obvious) problem is that this doesn't exist in the "real world".

-Extra time. Some students who're struggling get granted extra time (under law), where I have to give them as much time as they need to complete work/tests/etc. This may be PC, but once again the problem is that this will NEVER happen for them in the "real world"

-One standard for everybody. Different classes have different personalities and different students learn at different paces/in different ways. But virtually everything has to be taught at a specific pace and in a specific way--the problem is that you can't expect 25 kids to learn at the same pace AND in the same way (let alone 150).

-The teacher's union. Luckily I live in a right to work state. I haven't had any real interaction with the actual union so I wont comment on that, BUT there are a few teachers in my department who (literally) carry around their contracts form the teacher's union and if they're asked to do something that's not on there-they'll refuse to do it. Such as putting books away at the end of the school year, or showing up 15 mins to work early for a duty (bus ramp/something similar). And you'd think that they were asked to run a marathon. The complaining blows me away. And then they wonder why teachers will less "experience" (in terms of years) get promoted to APs or Principals.

-Lack of control over situations. As a teacher I was told to NEVER touch a student. Which to me makes 100% sense. I'll give students a high five-but that's IT. The obvious problem comes about during fights, what do we do? I was instructed that even if one student is on top of the other kid and have them pinned against the ground and beating the kid to a bloody pulp that I am NOT to pull the kid off of the other. I have to call down to the main office and wait for our officer (we have a LEO on campus) or an AP/someone else to resolve the situation. Basically we're not allowed to grab a student by the shoulders and pull them off of another student who's getting the crap kicked out of them....because of fear of a lawsuit. Luckily I have complete control over my classroom, but this can (and has) happened to other teachers before.

-Teachers just clocking in. I think this bothers me the most. I'm usually at my school an extra hour or so (depending on the day) after we can leave. And I'm usually there about a half hour before we have to be. Some teachers book and just bolt. Teaching isn't a career where you should be doing this in my opinion.

-Students refusing to do work, and who fail without caring. I've had students with a 5.6% and 11.4% in class and BRAG about it. They think it's cool to get bad grades. And yet many out there are ready to subsidize them when they're out of highschool. They'll tell you that somehow "we" (society, teachers, school, etc). have let them down....because they wont admit that they brought it upon themselves. There's no accountability. I've seen quite a few kids drop-out and there's always 2 reasons (I've spoken with more seasoned teachers and they agree): 1) They don't show up to school. 2) They don't care about their grades.

I know I've done nothing but complain in this thread, but it's just very disheartening to see all of these obvious problems in my very limited experience and to see that the "solution" is by throwing more money at schools (it's not), or coddling the students. The coddling of kids is going to be a huge downfall for them. It's a crutch.

I'm really going to address the highlighted part as I don't have much problem with anything else (with a few quibbles).

In the real world, if you are required to produce something, on time, the employer or anyone else is not going to care that you learn at a different rate. The expectation is that you meet goals set by someone (a job, teacher, university, government) and that you meet those goals; or you fail. This falls under the previous paragraph you had in which you complain about being given extra time. In the real world, extra time means you have failed and it is very likely that this failure will be held against you in some form in the future.